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Barbaric America(?)

N

Natural Submission

Active Member
BARBARIC AMERICA(?)
The Murder of Terri Schiavo

Cardinal Renato Martino called Terri Schiavo's death "nothing else but murder...this is not a natural death, it is an imposed death."

Starvation, Dehydration, Murder...

Sounds like the Satanic policies of an evil dictatorship, without a God, without a conscious...

A place were the innocent and crippled are slaughtered slowly...

"... she was nearing death, with her heart beating rapidly, her skin mottling and her breathing becoming more difficult." -CNN

It is easy to turn a blind eye on this situation as if it doesn't involve you. What if this was your sibling or daughter? What would you do about it? Would you let a stranger (the judge) say it's OK to starve your daughter to death...or would you fight?

How long are we going to sit idly by and watch the innocent continue to be murdered and tortured? What has happened to America? America is said to be a land of peace and safety...Is it?

According to FBI statistics, over 18,000 people were murdered in 1997.

Somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.

Over the last two years, more than 787,000 women were the victim of a rape or sexual assault. (National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1996.)

U.S. Justice Department reports only 26% of all rapes or attempted rapes being reported to law enforcement officials.

At least 45% of rapists were under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

America has become known internationally as one of the most dangerous places in the world for tourists. With the decline and decay of righteousness, the foundation of our country has been broken and swept away.

And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it." Matthew 7:26-27

Do we want this fate to fall upon our country? So long as we the people of the United States continue to ignore these atrocities the house of America will fall a great (horrible) fall.

Her death came less than 12 hours after the U.S. Supreme Court rejected her parents' last appeal and nearly two weeks after doctors, acting on an order issued by a state circuit court judge, removed her life-sustaining feeding tube. –CNN

This is unfortunately the beginning of the end UNLESS we do something about it. The Bible likewise can be viewed as a book of statistics. Every nation that has acted with cruelty and evil was destroyed by the hand of God. What makes us any different? Has God somehow changed his policy?

“For I am the LORD, I change not…” Malachi 3:6

“Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.” James 1:17

It is not too late for us to make America better. It is not too late for us to bring about TRUE peace and TRUE justice, for how can there be justice without peace?

Some say that because Terri Schiavo has now died that the case is closed. If this is the consensus of all American’s then the murder and oppression will continue until God smites our nation with a plague of destruction. Those in positions of power condemn the innocent, slay the saints and starve the hungry. Although they plot and plan, God too plots and plans, and God is the best of planners...

Psalms 37-
9: For the wicked shall be cut off; but those who wait for the LORD shall possess the land.
10: Yet a little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look well at his place, he will not be there.
11: But the meek shall possess the land, and delight themselves in abundant prosperity.
12: The wicked plots against the righteous, and gnashes his teeth at him;
13: but the LORD laughs at the wicked, for he sees that his day is coming.
14: The wicked draw the sword and bend their bows, to bring down the poor and needy, to slay those who walk uprightly;
15: their sword shall enter their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
16: Better is a little that the righteous has than the abundance of many wicked.
17: For the arms of the wicked shall be broken; but the LORD upholds the righteous.
18: The LORD knows the days of the blameless, and their heritage will abide for ever;
19: they are not put to shame in evil times, in the days of famine they have abundance.
20: But the wicked perish; the enemies of the LORD are like the glory of the pastures, they vanish -- like smoke they vanish away.
21: The wicked borrows, and cannot pay back, but the righteous is generous and gives;
22: for those blessed by the LORD shall possess the land, but those cursed by him shall be cut off.

Spread the word, speak out against oppression. Take sides with the oppressed no matter what their religious beliefs are, for all are One in the eyes of The Lord. This kind of torturous treatment to the handicapped is NOT what America is all about.

Preamble: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our prosperity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

For those who love America and the American people, let us unite under the banner of truth in the name of God and strive to bring forth righteousness to our great country!

[Note: This article is not intended to slander the American people or the government in any way, rather, this article is intended to enforce the right and forbid the wrong and tighten the American circle of love through unity and justice]

Peace and Love to all...
 
Feathers in Hair

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
I'm afraid that basing this argument on God (especially one specific on) invites debate over the terms used. Why not simply be outraged because humans are doing unkind things to each other? I'm outraged anywhere that happens.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Murder is killing of the innocent, but the definition of murder does not exclude all killing of even the innocent.

Humans are given rationale and are given stewardship of themselves. We determine as a society when killing is ethical, moral, and allowable.

1) War is a perfect example. The conservatives who fought for Terri's "life" also were the driving force behind a PRE-IMPTIVE war in Iraq, in which case the killing of innocent women, children, and non-combatants is not called murder, but collataral damage. Hence murder is not all killing.

In the OT, Joshua and his men were ordered to kill everything: men, women, children, and even livestock. HMMMM

2) Jeb Bush has not pardoned one death row inmate since he has been governor of Florida. As a society, since biblical times, humans have used the death penalty to kill but it is not murder. The killer is given a painless lethal injection.... Terri was kept alive against her will without the common courtesy that we afford to the scum of our society. All killing is not murder.

3) Abortion is not murder. It is the provision of proper medical attention to women as a fundamental human right.

In order for killing to be murder, there has to be innocence an interruption of life. In order to have life, one must have at least the potential for individuality and personhood.

Terri no longer had the potential for a continued life, and her death was not an interruption of life. Allowing her to die is not murder, and to call it murder is inflamatory use of the term.
 
jewscout

jewscout

Religious Zionist
while Terry Shiavo's death is a tragedy...and though i don't think any of us truely know what she would have wanted...hundreds of thousands of people die from starvation, dehydration, war, famine, genocide, etc. etc. everyday
Why doesn't Bush wake up in the middle of the night to stop the deaths of innocents there? What about our boys and girls in uniform and the innocent Iraqis who get killed in the cross fire?
Where's the Compassionate conservative then?
 
Prima

Prima

Well-Known Member
Your post astounds me. That's not the usual logic-based debate point I'm used to at RF- that's propaganda.

The problem I have is that the same people who are appalled at Terri's death are not doing anything to help, as jewscout said, the hundreds of thousands of people dying from starvation, dehydration, war, famine, genocide, rape & murder, etc.

This is not a political discussion. It's a question of 'what if'

What if all the time you spent complaining about what the world has come to, you spent trying to make it a better place?

What if you think Terri's death is wrong, and instead of complaining, you work to make another life better by being on the police force, being a volunteer, working at a hospital, etc?

What if you fought to have her live and she told you that wasn't what she wanted?

What if instead of condemning conservatives you worked to have the parties work together for good instead of spending their time fighting?

What if instead of throwing out words like 'Satanic' and 'murder' you found out what the words mean before you use them?

What if instead of just complaining and bemoaning, you worked to make a law concerning Terri's case? or maybe support for families going through that? or maybe funded part of the investigation into her death?
 
N

Natural Submission

Active Member
Jewscout: Yes thousands starve, but why not just give her a quick easy death instead?

As far as basing it on God, i did this because her husband said to CNN that it was God's will, i disagree. i do support what you said though Feathers as this is an outrage plain and simple.
 
Prima

Prima

Well-Known Member
As far as basing it on God, i did this because her husband said to CNN that it was God's will, i disagree
Click to expand...
and yet, free will - God's will is our will. He wants us to be able to do as we choose. You don't know what Terri wanted. Maybe she did want to be able to die. Just because you would disagree were you in that position doesn't mean it's less true.
 
N

Natural Submission

Active Member
Prima said:
What if all the time you spent complaining about what the world has come to, you spent trying to make it a better place?
Click to expand...

Obviously by speaking out there will be MANY people trying to make the world a better place, simple logic.

What if you think Terri's death is wrong, and instead of complaining, you work to make another life better by being on the police force, being a volunteer, working at a hospital, etc?
Click to expand...

How do you know i'm not on the police force? Moreover i do work for these things.

What if you fought to have her live and she told you that wasn't what she wanted?
Click to expand...

What if she wanted me to fight for her to live?
What if instead of condemning conservatives you worked to have the parties work together for good instead of spending their time fighting?
Click to expand...

When i say fight i mean struggle, not physically spill blood.

What if instead of throwing out words like 'Satanic' and 'murder' you found out what the words mean before you use them?
Click to expand...

i think i understand their definition. What if you spent less time criticizing me and try to enforce truth yourself?
What if instead of just complaining and bemoaning, you worked to make a law concerning Terri's case? or maybe support for families going through that? or maybe funded part of the investigation into her death?
Click to expand...

Again, how do you know i'm not doing these things? It seems YOU are the one complaining and moaning...
 
Prima

Prima

Well-Known Member
Goodness! No use getting personal. The 'you' was general, I never claimed someone in particular here was doing these things. I just see it often.
 
N

Natural Submission

Active Member
Prima said:
and yet, free will - God's will is our will. He wants us to be able to do as we choose. You don't know what Terri wanted. Maybe she did want to be able to die. Just because you would disagree were you in that position doesn't mean it's less true.
Click to expand...

Again, maybe she DIDN'T want to die. Just because you THINK she did doesn't make it true.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Natural Submission,
With reference to post #9, could you please clarify your selective application of the use and definition of the term with specific attention given to the fact that (1) the conservative politicians in this case voted for a pre-imptive war against Iraq that took the lives of hundreds of innocents (2) Jeb Bush supports the death penalty and (3) murder is an interruption of life, and Terri's life was not interrupted because she was terminally ill and in a coma.

I don't think that in light of these points that you can establish convincingly that you are using and defining the terms appropriately. Hopefully you can understand how irritating it is when folks throw around a word as serious as murder without being able to defend their point of view.

EDIT: It is quite evident that murder does not include the killing of all people and you and others are selectively applying the word, and if you apply it to my points, murder loses its definition.
 
Prima

Prima

Well-Known Member
I don't think that in light of these points that you can establish convincingly that you are using and defining the terms appropriately. Hopefully you can understand how irritating it is when folks throw around a word as serious as murder without being able to defend their point of view.
Click to expand...
I believe this statement also applies to your use of the word 'Satanic' Please show me why this has anything to do with the religion of Satanism.
 
N

Natural Submission

Active Member
The ill are still alive and so was Terri. People in a comatose consciousness have often awakened after several years. Terri was seemingly unable to communicate properly to define her wishes. This doesn't mean she should be killed, yes murdered. A deaf, dumb and blind child cannot communicate properly and tell you his/her thoughts, but this is no reason to deprive him/her of food or water until he/she dies.

However, my most important objective was missed. i should have made it more clear. My arguement is that IF she did want to die, why not do it in a more humane manner, making it short and painless. Why starve her to death and let her suffer. Although some disagree and say she had no idea what was happening, others (medical doctors) say she DID have an idea of what was going on and this is why she fough so hard.
 
N

Natural Submission

Active Member
Prima said:
I believe this statement also applies to your use of the word 'Satanic' Please show me why this has anything to do with the religion of Satanism.
Click to expand...

It isn't necessary to define this and i feel you are nit-picking, but i will anyway.

i base the word "Satanic" off of Satan himself. His goal is to destroy mankind and imposed evil upon us. This was an act of cruelty and evil, thus making it Satanic.
 
Green Gaia

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Natural Submission said:
If your going to say something then say it Maize, i don't need you sarcastic comments.
Click to expand...

I just call it as I see it NS.... If you want to make a point to debate then do it, instead of using tactics like this.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Natural Submission said:
The ill are still alive and so was Terri. People in a comatose consciousness have often awakened after several years. Terri was seemingly unable to communicate properly to define her wishes. This doesn't mean she should be killed, yes murdered. A deaf, dumb and blind child cannot communicate properly and tell you his/her thoughts, but this is no reason to deprive him/her of food or water until he/she dies.

However, my most important objective was missed. i should have made it more clear. My arguement is that IF she did want to die, why not do it in a more humane manner, making it short and painless. Why starve her to death and let her suffer. Although some disagree and say she had no idea what was happening, others (medical doctors) say she DID have an idea of what was going on and this is why she fough so hard.
Click to expand...
She made her will quite clear through her husband. It would be most interesting to see how you can recoincile the use of the term "murder" with the removal of the feeding tube and yet support active killing in the emboldend text.

Are you able to offer us more substantive insight?

Furthermore, do you remember what you said in post #6?
 
Prima

Prima

Well-Known Member
i base the word "Satanic" off of Satan himself. His goal is to destroy mankind and imposed evil upon us. This was an act of cruelty and evil, thus making it Satanic.
Click to expand...
I believe you would probably offend our Satanists saying this. If you believe it was an evil act, say that it is an act of evil and not an act of Satan. Your beliefs are not the same as everyone else's.

Seeing as how the law forbids assisted suicide, starvation by removal of feeding tube was the only option open. If she wanted to die, or was forced to die, that was the only option open - hence, not an action of cruelty, but an action of necessity.
 
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