Multiple Church Leaders Condemn Bigoted Ad Against California Proposition 8

BTW, my main interest in this discussion to begin with was a reaction to a slew of Zippy's usual hostile posts and threads, of which this was one. It could be that I've given the ad too much credit solely because I know it bothers Zippy, and that makes me happy. :yes:

doppelgänger;1324164 said:

Sarcasm? Satire. And Jonathan Swift was quite serious.

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You actually think he seriously meant what he wrote? Huh, guess I need to go tell every English teacher I have ever had they are teaching the wrong stuff.

Explain why. You might convince me. I've asked Jay to explain and he has nothing.

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If you seriously can not see why then there is no point to try to explain. Continue to support bigotry for all I care. Most of the people on this site do. The general motto I have seen around here is "Do as I say, not as I do". So please, continue. I am done with this site.

Apex said:

You actually think he seriously meant what he wrote? Huh, guess I need to go tell every English teacher I have ever had they are teaching the wrong stuff.

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I think he seriously meant to imply that the English were engaging in what amounted to indirect canibalism, yes. Your English teachers might want to jump over to the History department and learn a little more about the context of that particular satire.

Apex said:

If you seriously can not see why then there is no point to try to explain.

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I doubt that. You haven't even tried.

To be honest, I didn't follow this issue nearly as closely as I should have when it was circulating through. I was concerned with other matters and don't usually pay that much attention to state ballot initiatives. What I regret is that I didn't send money to support the opposition to Prop 8 and call my friends to do the same. Since starting this discussion and looking back over the things that were said in ads in that campaign I am simply stunned by the lies that were told by proponents of the ballot measure solely to scare up false and misguided fears about gay and lesbian couples who just want to be left the Hell alone.

One of those people is my very good friend from law school, Joanne, who sent me a facebook message this morning. Joanne's wife is dying of cancer. Joanne left her practice and they moved to California specifically so they could get married and live out their lives together in love and as a couple without having it hang over them that the state regarded their love as something less that what other people shared.

Joanne wrote me and told me how tough it was being a caregiver to someone who's dying in these circumstances - to feel so alone as her wife died, watching people lie about them to make people fear and hate them, all so that they could have the smug sense of satisfaction from knowing they'd forced other people to live by their beliefs, even if it took breaking up families and looking down on the genuine love shared between two people.

I understand the emotions that led the ad being discussed in this thread. Could it have been more tactful? Probably. But anyone who thinks the LDS Church is the victim in all of this has really been bamboozled.

And to my Mormon friends, many of whom have the good sense to have disagreed with their church about this, I have been too zealous in my defense of the advertisement, and for that I apologize. Watching some adherents of your faith revel and rejoice in the pain this may end up causing to real people and real families got the better of me. I should have remained more level-headed about it. And for that, I'm sorry.

mball1297 said:

I disagree. I think it exposes it for what it is. As I said before, if you look at the situation, the Mormon church has done exactly what the commercial portrays, just not on an individual, personal basis like that. There's nothing false about it. They may not go about it quite as cruelly as in the commercial, but they show an extreme disregard for others in their actions. They may not mean to be cruel or mean, but they refuse to listen to others when they tell them what the consequences of their actions are.

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Hang on. Look at what you're saying:

- "They may not go about it quite as cruelly as in the commercial"
- "They may not mean to be cruel or mean"

This may be naively optimistic of me, but I think that some sort of dialogue to resolve this whole thing, if it's possible at all, is a lot more likely if you start with the common ground that both sides are trying to do what they think is right.

Also, same-sex marriage isn't the only issue out there. Look at all the issues where people on opposite sides of this debate are on the same side of others. Do you think it helps or hinders, say, disaster relief or combatting AIDS to drive the wedge even deeper between the people working towards those goals?

DisneyMan said:

Did anyone catch that I though the commercial was funny?

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Katzpur said:

Thank you both for your rational responses.

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Yes, because those responses that disagree with you are obviously irrational.

madhatter85 said:

hate only brings more hate.

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No really?

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Hang on. Look at what you're saying:

- "They may not go about it quite as cruelly as in the commercial"
- "They may not mean to be cruel or mean"

This may be naively optimistic of me, but I think that some sort of dialogue to resolve this whole thing, if it's possible at all, is a lot more likely if you start with the common ground that both sides are trying to do what they think is right.

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Of course both sides are trying to do what they think is right. Many people who commit crimes and perform other bad actions have good intentions. That doesn't make their actions right. The fact is that most supporters of Prop 8, while trying to do the right thing in their eyes, consciously refuse to see the consequences of their actions. They make a decision to ignore the effects of their actions on others' lives. It is arrogance and selfishness that drives them, plain and simple. When someone is being condescending to you, whether or not they realize they're doing it, it's still offensive and inconsiderate, isn't it?

Also, same-sex marriage isn't the only issue out there. Look at all the issues where people on opposite sides of this debate are on the same side of others. Do you think it helps or hinders, say, disaster relief or combatting AIDS to drive the wedge even deeper between the people working towards those goals?

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I'm not sure I see the point here. So, we should not argue about certain issues because it might hinder our ability to work together on other issues? I'm sorry if people can't separate the two, but I don't think that's a good reason to just say "OK, continue to be bigotted on this, as long as we can continue to work together on something else".

madhatter85 said:

hate only brings more hate.

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Oh, Arturo, Prince of irony.

mball1297 said:

Of course both sides are trying to do what they think is right. Many people who commit crimes and perform other bad actions have good intentions. That doesn't make their actions right. The fact is that most supporters of Prop 8, while trying to do the right thing in their eyes, consciously refuse to see the consequences of their actions. They make a decision to ignore the effects of their actions on others' lives. It is arrogance and selfishness that drives them, plain and simple. When someone is being condescending to you, whether or not they realize they're doing it, it's still offensive and inconsiderate, isn't it?

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The part that I bolded is another example of what I was talking about.

I think what they're doing is offensive and inconsiderate enough all on its own. There's no need to make up more.

mball1297 said:

I'm not sure I see the point here. So, we should not argue about certain issues because it might hinder our ability to work together on other issues?

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No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying fight, but fight fairly.

Apex said:

If you seriously can not see why then there is no point to try to explain.

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That doesn't exactly further any kind of understanding. Discussint things always helps in clarifying one's own thoughts as well as others.

Continue to support bigotry for all I care. Most of the people on this site do. The general motto I have seen around here is "Do as I say, not as I do". So please, continue.

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I think it might be that you just don't understand the term "bigotry". It's not bigotry when there is plenty of evidence and good reason to hold your position. For instance, there are many Mormons on here (in this thread even) who show the callous disregard for others that is displayed in the video. The actions of the Mormon church itself are reflected in the video. Homosexuals finally gained the right to get married. Then the Mormon church (as well as many others) took action to take those rights away from them in raising money to support Prop 8. The truth hurts sometimes.

My motto is not "Do as I say, not as I do". I make mistakes, and I know others do, too. What I can't accept is when people refuse to acknowledge their mistakes or correct them. Instead of saying "Well, I guess we kind of are doing that, maybe we should rethink our position", the response is "That's bigotted. I'm offended", and then dig in even more. When someone's actions warrant a certain label, I don't shy away from applying it. When my actions warrant a label, I can admit it.

I am done with this site.

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I hope you don't mean that. I enjoy your contributions here. You tend to be level-headed and reasonable about things. Your presence would definitely be missed.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

The part that I bolded is another example of what I was talking about.

I think what they're doing is offensive and inconsiderate enough all on its own. There's no need to make up more.

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There is no making up more. I'm curious as to how you don't see how those particular labels fit the situation.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying fight, but fight fairly.

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What do you see as unfair about my argument or the video?

mball1297 said:

There is no making up more. I'm curious as to how you don't see how those particular labels fit the situation.



What do you see as unfair about my argument or the video?

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Mainly, various ways that it depicted this as a breaking down of the barrier between church and state, such as the portrayal of Proposition 8 as "a church taking over your government" and the portrayal of Mormon missionaries as an "enforcement division" tasked with carrying out government policies. Also, the suggestion that this was the beginning of some sort of "slippery slope" of California law being aligned to Mormon whims.

If you want to see a real example of a religious group taking over a government, I can dig up some reading material for you on the relationship between the Orange Lodge and the government of Ontario through the 19th Century.

There's a big difference between religion controlling government and religious peoples' vote being influenced by their beliefs.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Mainly, various ways that it depicted this as a breaking down of the barrier between church and state, such as the portrayal of Proposition 8 as "a church taking over your government" and the portrayal of Mormon missionaries as an "enforcement division" tasked with carrying out government policies. Also, the suggestion that this was the beginning of some sort of "slippery slope" of California law being aligned to Mormon whims.

If you want to see a real example of a religious group taking over a government, I can dig up some reading material for you on the relationship between the Orange Lodge and the government of Ontario through the 19th Century.

There's a big difference between religion controlling government and religious peoples' vote being influenced by their beliefs.

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So, are you saying that those were false parts about the video? From where I'm standing, that looks pretty dead-on to me. Some religious people are trying to impose religious standards on a state contract. How is that not breaking down the barrier between church and state? It also looks just like a church taking over the government to me. I didn't get the suggestion that the government would become aligned with the Mormon whim, but it certainly is a turn towards it being aligned with a religious whim.

doppelgänger;1324166 said:

BTW, my main interest in this discussion to begin with was a reaction to a slew of Zippy's usual hostile posts and threads, of which this was one. It could be that I've given the ad too much credit solely because I know it bothers Zippy, and that makes me happy. :yes:

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I am glad that you are happy that I don't give a damn about what you think.

zippythepinhead said:

I am glad that you are happy that I don't give a damn about what you think.

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And I'm not surprised to see that you completely missed the point of his post.

mball1297 said:

So, are you saying that those were false parts about the video?

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Yes, I am.

mball1297 said:

Some religious people are trying to impose religious standards on a state contract. How is that not breaking down the barrier between church and state?

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Because in a democracy, people can vote their consciences regardless of what informs their consciences. If you were to declare that religious beliefs couldn't be expressed in public life, that would be breaking down the barrier between church and state.

mball1297 said:

I didn't get the suggestion that the government would become aligned with the Mormon whim,

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It was at the end:

- "missionary" 1: That was too easy.
- "missionary 2: Yeah, what should we ban next?

Nessa said:

Then send me a link privately otherwise I still think you're being disingenuous.

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I can't. PM a mod about it if you have any questions.

doppelgänger;1324188 said:

And to my Mormon friends, many of whom have the good sense to have disagreed with their church about this, I have been too zealous in my defense of the advertisement, and for that I apologize. Watching some adherents of your faith revel and rejoice in the pain this may end up causing to real people and real families got the better of me. I should have remained more level-headed about it. And for that, I'm sorry.

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The damage is done. Not by you, but by the movement itself. I might come around to supporting them again, but not anytime soon. For the time being, my mantra is "you're on your own."