Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
destinata7,
Yikes! Ok, allow me to clarify. Since I am god, I hereby decree that all humans and animals will be perfectly content and happy, as well as keeping their individuality and free-will. It would be an existence in which one would not tire of being happy. People are still motivated by goals, but their goals come secondary to what really matters in life, and therefore do not cause problems in their happiness. People think of god constantly, because he lives on earth in close contact with them, caring for them and helping them. Overpopulation and Vegetarianism to not pose problems, because I am god and I make sure they don't. I do all I can to help maintain a smoothly running earth for my children to reside in happily.
Really, It's like heaven. I don't know what your exact views are on the afterlife, but if god can create a successful eternal paradise without all of these problems, why can't he re-create it on earth, only with the introduction of death so that one may move into the eternal state?
I have problems with pain and suffering and wish to do all I can to lessen them on any plane, god or no god. Without god, pain and suffering are natural and, (as you pointed out in your first quote), necessary components to successful human life. We do what we can to lessen them, and at times succeed, but the fact of the matter is that they are a part of this world and must be accepted. When god enters the picture, everything changes for me. If god is the creator, then that means that he also created pain and suffering, but why would he do that? If he is all-powerful, then he has the ability to create a world where we all live important and meaningful lives with free-will, yet do not have to come in contact with pain and suffering. You say that such a world would become boring to those living in it, but perhaps we have pain and suffering simply because it became boring to him watching it?
Do you believe that god has a 'plan'? Do you believe that everyone is included in god's plan and that god is omniscient? If so, it is not logical to conclude that randomness exists. God knows everything that will happen-- free-will doesn't make sense because god already knows what choice you will make. If god doesn't know, then he is not all-powerful, and if he is not all-powerful, that would explain the existence of pain and suffering.
Why don't you think that god controls outcomes at casinos? Because they seem small and insignificant to you? I say, that if god controls one thing, he controls everything. Even if he were to say that the casino games could control themselves, he is still indirectly in control of them, because they reside in his world and follow his rules...they also must fit in with his 'plan'.
Then who did create cancer? It seems to me that you are attributing all the good to god but none of the bad, and that doen't make any sense.
Heh, heh--I don't know why god would create cancer either, but that definately seems to be the heart of the argument here.
So god just decided to exist out of the blue and start creating things?
as far as who to attribute the patterned behavior of matter to-- science or god-- we're just battling over semantics here.
You could say that. The idea of god certainly fills emotional needs, as well as gaps in our understanding of our environment. Humans also have spiritual needs which are easier to fullfill with something like god. However, just because people would say they 'need' god, doesn't mean god exists. We can't will something into existence just because we want it.
That's an interesting thing to keep in mind-- the need for god came first, before the idea.
Yes, I see what you're saying here and I agree. Those same needs can also be fullfilled without god, however, and it is with that knowledge that we can say god is rendered useless.
Appear in front of me and talk to me, maybe...allow himself to be tested by scientists perhaps...I havn't really thought about this question--I should though.
Are you saying that you don't believe we can have free-will without pain and suffering?
Haha, enlighten me!
Phew! I think that should do it for now! Eagerly awaiting your replies!
Death by old age and disease also causes suffering so that would obviously be eliminated in your scenario. So we have a happy happy existence where everyone smiles at each other for long spans of time while a host of other unaddressed problems creep up: People so weary of being happy they want to commit suicide, without mood inflections they can't even tell what happiness is anymore; everone's rich, of course, and because they have nothing left to earn they end up with no goals, plans, or ideas; populations soar and the crowding is disgusting; everyone is intelligent as well so as to prevent the unhappiness of differentiality, with nothing better to do with their plush lives they happily plot revolution; animal populations soar (you can't have the unhappiness in your world of peoples favorite animals and pets dying); animals (none of which are carnivorous anymore) become so passive they lose their mating extincts (which can cause alot of violence and unhappiness in the animal kingdom anyway not to mention the human realm); everyone looks cloned (you can't have the unhappiness of ugly or different looking people in your world now can you?); people even act the same (wouldn't do to have nerds) and give the appearance of almost acting robotic they are so alike; people don't think of God or need God; overpopulation and vegetarianism causes the agricultural sector to fall drastically behind.......everyone starves to death!!! Great job, Ceridwen!
Yikes! Ok, allow me to clarify. Since I am god, I hereby decree that all humans and animals will be perfectly content and happy, as well as keeping their individuality and free-will. It would be an existence in which one would not tire of being happy. People are still motivated by goals, but their goals come secondary to what really matters in life, and therefore do not cause problems in their happiness. People think of god constantly, because he lives on earth in close contact with them, caring for them and helping them. Overpopulation and Vegetarianism to not pose problems, because I am god and I make sure they don't. I do all I can to help maintain a smoothly running earth for my children to reside in happily.
Really, It's like heaven. I don't know what your exact views are on the afterlife, but if god can create a successful eternal paradise without all of these problems, why can't he re-create it on earth, only with the introduction of death so that one may move into the eternal state?
Ah, but you did say that you had a problem with pain and suffering....or do you like it when people are in pain and suffering as long as you're convinced there is not God? I'm sure that you don't approve of all the violence and murder (please agree with me here so I know you're not a phycho) happening in the world today.......you contend that as long as there is not God you're cool with this??? Hmmmm.....
I have problems with pain and suffering and wish to do all I can to lessen them on any plane, god or no god. Without god, pain and suffering are natural and, (as you pointed out in your first quote), necessary components to successful human life. We do what we can to lessen them, and at times succeed, but the fact of the matter is that they are a part of this world and must be accepted. When god enters the picture, everything changes for me. If god is the creator, then that means that he also created pain and suffering, but why would he do that? If he is all-powerful, then he has the ability to create a world where we all live important and meaningful lives with free-will, yet do not have to come in contact with pain and suffering. You say that such a world would become boring to those living in it, but perhaps we have pain and suffering simply because it became boring to him watching it?
I don't believe that when God is introduced, randomness is done away with. Without some randomness, everything is ascribed to fate....and I personally do not believe in fate! For instance I believe in God, but I do not believe that God choses to influence the rouletted wheels at all the casinos.....I believe these are almost always random(unless a Jedi is manipulating the little ball).
Do you believe that god has a 'plan'? Do you believe that everyone is included in god's plan and that god is omniscient? If so, it is not logical to conclude that randomness exists. God knows everything that will happen-- free-will doesn't make sense because god already knows what choice you will make. If god doesn't know, then he is not all-powerful, and if he is not all-powerful, that would explain the existence of pain and suffering.
Why don't you think that god controls outcomes at casinos? Because they seem small and insignificant to you? I say, that if god controls one thing, he controls everything. Even if he were to say that the casino games could control themselves, he is still indirectly in control of them, because they reside in his world and follow his rules...they also must fit in with his 'plan'.
Why would cancer be created by God? I don't believe that God created cancer.
Then who did create cancer? It seems to me that you are attributing all the good to god but none of the bad, and that doen't make any sense.
Heh, heh--I don't know why god would create cancer either, but that definately seems to be the heart of the argument here.
Riiiiiight, all this matter just decided to exist out of the blue and started creating a wonderful universe out of sheer randomness.....but you contended in an earlier post that atoms and such aren't so random at all, does it seem as though they are maybe "programmed" for their non random like behaviour? The force that "programmed" the atoms is the same source that I call God and you call science!
So god just decided to exist out of the blue and start creating things?
as far as who to attribute the patterned behavior of matter to-- science or god-- we're just battling over semantics here.
Or is there something specifically instilled into the nature of humankind that causes them to pursue the spiritual......and sometimes that pursuit becomes expressed in different ways?
You could say that. The idea of god certainly fills emotional needs, as well as gaps in our understanding of our environment. Humans also have spiritual needs which are easier to fullfill with something like god. However, just because people would say they 'need' god, doesn't mean god exists. We can't will something into existence just because we want it.
That's an interesting thing to keep in mind-- the need for god came first, before the idea.
If you ascertain, as one of the fundementals of psychology, that man creates God and the supernatural to fill in for areas of need in his wretched life. Transcendentally, if a need is being fulfilled and the effect is real, then the cause of the effect is just as real as anything else in this world (or maybe even more so).
Yes, I see what you're saying here and I agree. Those same needs can also be fullfilled without god, however, and it is with that knowledge that we can say god is rendered useless.
What would you consider ample proof of God, Ceridwen? What would God have to do to prove that Am exists to you?
Appear in front of me and talk to me, maybe...allow himself to be tested by scientists perhaps...I havn't really thought about this question--I should though.
Again, the misunderstandings of a temporal, free-will universe......
Are you saying that you don't believe we can have free-will without pain and suffering?
The misconception of the nature of God's omniscience is something else that causes alot of philosophical problems as well.
Haha, enlighten me!
Phew! I think that should do it for now! Eagerly awaiting your replies!