Is the universe infinite or finite?

Green Man · Mar 28, 2005

Personally,I think the universe is infinite.All observations thus far reveal either a very,very large(greater than 70 billion light years) or infinite universe.Matter throughout the universe appears to be evenly distributed for as far as our instruments can detect(10 billion light years).The universe is also expanding.Something to be expected in an infinite universe.If the universe were finite,there would be no where to expand to.

Halcyon · Mar 28, 2005

Some say the universe creates space as it expands. There is finite matter in the universe, but i guess you're talking about space/time.

Green Man · Mar 28, 2005

Halcyon said:
Some say the universe creates space as it expands. There is finite matter in the universe, but i guess you're talking about space/time.

I recently read that the space between the galaxies is expanding,but the galaxies themselves are not moving.A good analogy would be raisons on a bagel. the bagel gets bigger as it bakes,increasing the distance between the raisons without them moving.

No*s · Mar 28, 2005

For my part, I don't know and am not sure that we can. However, if the universe is bounded, then it's finite. If it's unbounded, then it's infinite. It may be both, just as there are finite set of numbers between 3 and 5, but in another sense an infinite set.

Spinks studies this stuff, and he's pretty convinced it's infinite, but I'm not so convinced yet. However, he has forgotten more on this subject than I know

.

Halcyon · Mar 28, 2005

Green Man said:
I recently read that the space between the galaxies is expanding,but the galaxies themselves are not moving.A good analogy would be raisons on a bagel. the bagel gets bigger as it bakes,increasing the distance between the raisons without them moving.

Really, i don't know about that. I heard that at some point the Andromeda galaxy is going to collide with ours, either in 2 or 5 billion years i can't remember. Plus they've photographed galaxies in the process of collision.

Nick Soapdish · Mar 28, 2005

Green Man said:
Personally,I think the universe is infinite.All observations thus far reveal either a very,very large(greater than 70 billion light years) or infinite universe.Matter throughout the universe appears to be evenly distributed for as far as our instruments can detect(10 billion light years).The universe is also expanding.Something to be expected in an infinite universe.If the universe were finite,there would be no where to expand to.

I cannot see how it is anything but finite. Any two pieces of matter, regardless of which two pieces you pick, will have a finite distance between them. There is no way two bodies can be infinitely apart.

This idea that space pre-exists matter, as if it were a stage in which we place objects, is based on an illusion put on by our spacial awareness, which is part of our conscious experience. The Theory of Relativity shows us there is no such thing as absolute space, only relative distances.

Green Man · Mar 29, 2005

No*s said:
For my part, I don't know and am not sure that we can. However, if the universe is bounded, then it's finite. If it's unbounded, then it's infinite. It may be both, just as there are finite set of numbers between 3 and 5, but in another sense an infinite set.

Spinks studies this stuff, and he's pretty convinced it's infinite, but I'm not so convinced yet. However, he has forgotten more on this subject than I know .

I don't know much about all this either,but I find the whole thing fascinating.I don't see how it could be anything but infinite.Like you said,a finite universe suggests a boundry.What's on the other side of the boundry?If it's more space,then it's not finite.

Green Man · Mar 29, 2005

atofel said:
I cannot see how it is anything but finite. Any two pieces of matter, regardless of which two pieces you pick, will have a finite distance between them. There is no way two bodies can be infinitely apart.

This idea that space pre-exists matter, as if it were a stage in which we place objects, is based on an illusion put on by our spacial awareness, which is part of our conscious experience. The Theory of Relativity shows us there is no such thing as absolute space, only relative distances.

What does any of this have to do with an infinite universe?Who said anything about space pre-existing matter?

Nick Soapdish · Mar 29, 2005

Green Man said:
What does any of this have to do with an infinite universe?Who said anything about space pre-existing matter?

I am making a distinction between the ideas of matter and space being conjoined and being independent. From what I can tell the idea of an "infinite" Universe requires space and matter to be independent (i.e. space can exist without any matter living in it). I believe relativity shows us that this is not a valid option.

As Halcyon said, space is created (or if you prefer distance is created) as matter expands. The "edge" of the Universe extends to the outermost photons speeding away from us. Space and distance have no existance outside of this edge.

Green Man · Mar 29, 2005

atofel said:
I am making a distinction between the ideas of matter and space being conjoined and being independent. From what I can tell the idea of an "infinite" Universe requires space and matter to be independent (i.e. space can exist without any matter living in it). I believe relativity shows us that this is not a valid option.

As Halcyon said, space is created (or if you prefer distance is created) as matter expands. The "edge" of the Universe extends to the outermost photons speeding away from us. Space and distance have no existance outside of this edge.

What is space?Science discovered during the last century that space is not merely an empty void,but can be warped and stretched and even torn.Space even puts out a low level form of energy never seen before.All data gathered seems to suggest that space may have mass and weight of it's own.While nothing in space can exceed the speed of light,space itself can.

The "edge" of the universe is only an observational edge.A point beyond which our instruments are as yet incapable of detecting anything.That does not mean there is nothing beyond that edge.Science knows for a fact the universe is much,much larger than anyone ever guessed.

If space and distance have no existance beyond this edge,then what does?

Green Man · Mar 29, 2005

I just found a site today proving the universe is infinite.Go to superstringtheory.com/cosmo/ and read What is the structure of the universe?

No*s · Mar 29, 2005

Green Man said:
I don't know much about all this either,but I find the whole thing fascinating.I don't see how it could be anything but infinite.Like you said,a finite universe suggests a boundry.What's on the other side of the boundry?If it's more space,then it's not finite.

Finite doesn't equate to boundriless

. The surface of a ball is boundriless, but it is also finite. However, Spinks says they've demonstrated an infinite unbound universe. I'm hesitant on that claim, but he seems to have done his homework.

Majikthise · Mar 29, 2005

I think this universe is an atom in a larger universe which is an atom in a larger universe which is an atom in a larger universe........................

And, each atom in this universe is it's own universe containing atoms that are their own universes containing atoms that are their own universes.............

So ,I guess this universe is finite.

linwood · Mar 29, 2005

What is space?Science discovered during the last century that space is not merely an empty void,but can be warped and stretched and even torn.Space even puts out a low level form of energy never seen before.All data gathered seems to suggest that space may have mass and weight of it's own.While nothing in space can exceed the speed of light,space itself can.

Can you reference physical evidence for this ?
Space has no properties as far as I know.

If space and distance have no existance beyond this edge,then what does?

Nothing.
Atofel is referencing Einsteins theory of relativity.
Eistein has said that there is no space until matter occupies it.
Fortunately for Einstien this can never be observed as valid or not considering the fact that there will always be space where any observer is under his theory.

Kinda cute how that works huh?

I personally think Einstein should have spent less time at his equations and more out in the world.

linwood · Mar 29, 2005

Oh as to the OP.

By "Universe" you mean.."All the observable matter around us"
Then the Universe is finite.

If you include space itself in your definition of "universe" then the universe is infinite

Majikthise · Mar 29, 2005

linwood said:
Oh as to the OP.

By "Universe" you mean.."All the observable matter around us"
Then the Universe is finite.

If you include space itself in your definition of "universe" then the universe is infinite

Oooh! I hadn't thought of that!

Lightkeeper · Mar 29, 2005

Wouldn't the "edge" of the Universe suggest that there is someting on the other side? I've heard scientists talk about the "edge" of the Universe, but no one has found it. I think the Universe is infinite.

Majikthise · Mar 29, 2005

Outside the universe is a proton shell.

Nick Soapdish · Mar 30, 2005

Green Man said:
What is space?

A geometric model we use to describe the spacial relationship between objects.

Science discovered during the last century that space is not merely an empty void,but can be warped and stretched and even torn.

Our current model of space has a curved geometry. However, I have not heard of it being referred to as "warped" or "stretched", and certainly not "torn". Where have you read this?

Space even puts out a low level form of energy never seen before.All data gathered seems to suggest that space may have mass and weight of it's own.While nothing in space can exceed the speed of light,space itself can.

Please help me out and point me to the source of your information.

The "edge" of the universe is only an observational edge.A point beyond which our instruments are as yet incapable of detecting anything.That does not mean there is nothing beyond that edge.Science knows for a fact the universe is much,much larger than anyone ever guessed.

As large as it might be I find it hard to believe that it is infinite. Can two objects be an infinite distance apart? Of course not.

If space and distance have no existance beyond this edge,then what does?

Nothing that we know of.

It is like asking what goes faster than the speed of light, what happened before the beginning of time, or what is smaller than a quantum. Nothing that we know of.

Nick Soapdish · Mar 30, 2005

No*s said:
However, Spinks says they've demonstrated an infinite unbound universe.

Do you remember the name of this thread?

Is the universe infinite or finite?

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