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Why do non-believers go to Hell?

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
I dunno, are these metaphorical fries? If by fries you mean a well thought out and logical rebuttle, then yes!
 
Ceridwen018 said:
chamberlain,

Oh but it is so much more complicated than that. If the world were a happy place, full of rainbows and butterflies, your theory would work here, but that is not reality. The reality is that this world is full of hardships and immense pain. Now, I don't know what constitutes a meaningful relationship for you, but for me, constant tests and obstacles aren't going to win my heart. If god wishes merely to have a meaningful realtionship with us, then why is there all of this suffering and evil? It would seem to me that perhaps god's intentions are not as pure as people would like to believe.

As far as free-will goes, logically that is still nonexistant. I assume that you believe that those who reject god go to hell, a sort of 'turn or burn' philosophy, if you will. What you are basically saying, then, is that if you don't believe in and love god, you will suffer for eternity in hell. This doesn't seem like free-will at all to me-- 'do or die' is never a fair choice. true free-will demands the possibility of equal reward and punishment for each possible choice.

God=Pure Love
Separation from God/Love=Hell

You chose whether to be joined to God or separated from I-AM's love. Spirits don't have their flesh eternally burned off and pitch-forked into oblivion!

If that's what you think, no wonder you don't believe in God!

Jesus Christ said the two greatest commandments were these:

1) Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind and soul

2) Love your neighbor as yourself

One must excercize true love to be joined with God! And yes, sometimes that does mean a few butterflies and rainbows. If the world looks so bad to you Ceridwen that you can't see any beauty, then I would think that what you are missing in life is true love......

As to the hardships of this life, I call this "impedition". Without impedition it is impossible to grow. Without impedition you don't have any Heroes (aka Jesus Christ). Beauty is even more intense against the contrasted backdrop of anti-beauty.

It seems that it's the worst times and disasters in life that we are able to overcome that give us our fondest memories (ask me sometime about my little Catalina Island incident). These are badges of accomplishment and are not made possible without the impedition. Also, don't forget who is responsible for most of the pain and suffering that you keep noticing......human beings! Free will! Peoples rights being excercized and causing other's rights to be violated.

This world is not perfect that is true.....that is why this is not called heaven. But there are little samples of heaven available if you know where to look!

Respectfully
 

KBC1963

Active Member
There are no non-believers in this world everyone believes and has faith in thier belief. Athiests have to be the funniest believers in the world because they are quick to say I don't believe in GOD or they say that man was not created by a god and yet I defy any of them to show me how life began, this is where thier belief begins, they believe that life evolved from the simple to the complex so in effect they believe in the god of chance and the god of luck since according to my information no one has ever created life from just plain matter and no one has ever seen it spontaneously occur, so their answer whatever it may be is a belief and faith in that belief. From my point of view I would have to say that the chance that I am right compared to the chance that an athiests belief is right should be about the same, however I haven't heard the earth say that is is gonna do away with us if we don't respect it, hehehe.
so it may be easier to answer if this thread was named
"Why do those that don't believe in the one true GOD go to hell"
and the answer would be;
there won't be an eternal hell since you are only existing by the grace of GOD but rather he will remove what he gave to begin with and you will exist no more.
 
Your last post was very insightful destinata7.
I agree totally with you.
As for ceridwin you have managed quite well at me...
... not at the point i have made.
Mr sprinkles youre just rude.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
destinata7,

One must excercize true love to be joined with God! And yes, sometimes that does mean a few butterflies and rainbows. If the world looks so bad to you Ceridwen that you can't see any beauty, then I would think that what you are missing in life is true love......

I didn't mean to sound like a downer--don't worry, I see plenty of beauty in this world! As for true love...well, remember what 'Mama' said, you 'just have to wait'!

As to the hardships of this life, I call this "impedition". Without impedition it is impossible to grow.

Why is it necessary for us to grow, though? We gain wisdom and insight through all our life's hardships, but how does that mean anything in the afterlife?

Without impedition you don't have any Heroes (aka Jesus Christ). Beauty is even more intense against the contrasted backdrop of anti-beauty.

But without impedition, we wouldn't need heroes, so we wouldn't miss them.

We are creatures of opposites: good/bad, truth/lie, beauty/non-beauty. If god were all powerful, he could take away our need for opposites and allow us to experince beauty at its most intense state, without us needing something lesser to compare it with.
 
Ceridwen018 said:
destinata7,

One must excercize true love to be joined with God! And yes, sometimes that does mean a few butterflies and rainbows. If the world looks so bad to you Ceridwen that you can't see any beauty, then I would think that what you are missing in life is true love......

I didn't mean to sound like a downer--don't worry, I see plenty of beauty in this world! As for true love...well, remember what 'Mama' said, you 'just have to wait'!

True love doesn't have to be limited to a mate! I can see what's on your mind now though! :smile:

As to the hardships of this life, I call this "impedition". Without impedition it is impossible to grow.

Why is it necessary for us to grow, though? We gain wisdom and insight through all our life's hardships, but how does that mean anything in the afterlife?

Your position in the afterlife depends on your growth in this present life. You won't get huge Arnold muscles if you don't pump the iron! The further you are able to progress in this life, the better.

Without impedition you don't have any Heroes (aka Jesus Christ). Beauty is even more intense against the contrasted backdrop of anti-beauty.

But without impedition, we wouldn't need heroes, so we wouldn't miss them.

If Jesus was a hero and He was the representative of God the I-am, hero-ism is in God's very nature. The kind of hero that is willing to sacrifice oneself for someone you love........no greater love exists. That's God love sister Ceridwen! (Hope you don't mind if I call you that. You did say that you used to be Catholic did you not?).

We are creatures of opposites: good/bad, truth/lie, beauty/non-beauty. If god were all powerful, he could take away our need for opposites and allow us to experince beauty at its most intense state, without us needing something lesser to compare it with.

Ceridwen, maybe we as mortals are so blind to true beauty that we are incapable of seeing it properly in this state without some contrast. Furthermore, if God took away all of our needs......what would we need God for?

Bottom line, you need to quit all of your atheist talk and get back to church you spinster you!!!

PS You're welcome to come to my church if you happen to be passing through northern British Columbia, Canada any time soon! :wink:
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
destinata7,

I can see what's on your mind now though!

*giggles*

Your position in the afterlife depends on your growth in this present life. You won't get huge Arnold muscles if you don't pump the iron! The further you are able to progress in this life, the better.

I am all for growth an becoming a better person, I just don't see how it relates to the afterlife. When you're in heaven, what use will you have for all that knowledge and wisdom?

If Jesus was a hero and He was the representative of God the I-am, hero-ism is in God's very nature. The kind of hero that is willing to sacrifice oneself for someone you love........no greater love exists. That's God love sister Ceridwen! (Hope you don't mind if I call you that. You did say that you used to be Catholic did you not?).

So, you're saying that the sacrifice of Jesus was necessary in order to reach us humans as we exist in our present nature.

Haha, yes you can call me what you will-- I'm an easy-going chica!

Ceridwen, maybe we as mortals are so blind to true beauty that we are incapable of seeing it properly in this state without some contrast.

So why doesn't god change our state then? That's my point.

Furthermore, if God took away all of our needs......what would we need God for?

Well...what do we need him for now, exactly?

Bottom line, you need to quit all of your atheist talk and get back to church you spinster you!!!

Hah! If only it were that easy.
 
Ceridwen wrote:
I am all for growth an becoming a better person, I just don't see how it relates to the afterlife. When you're in heaven, what use will you have for all that knowledge and wisdom?

It's not the miniscule amount of wisdom and knowledge that you take with you, its the level of goodness and love your spirit has attained that determines your place in the afterlife. Sometimes in this life, wisdom and knowledge can help you attain higher levels of goodness and love.

If Jesus was a hero and He was the representative of God the I-am, hero-ism is in God's very nature. The kind of hero that is willing to sacrifice oneself for someone you love........no greater love exists. That's God love sister Ceridwen! (Hope you don't mind if I call you that. You did say that you used to be Catholic did you not?).

So, you're saying that the sacrifice of Jesus was necessary in order to reach us humans as we exist in our present nature.

I personally don't believe that the only way we could attain eternal life was to have God's Son cruelly tortured and butchered on the cross. Jesus Christ was aware that there were other ways to impart salvation to mankind without the cross....nevertheless, things turned out that way due to the ignorance and violence of humankind. The willingness that Jesus Christ had to live a human life and show us all how to physically and spiritually overcome is pure love itself. That He did end up dying at the hands of those He came to save and the love that He demonstrated toward even those that were hurting Him is a testament to the savior He truly was!

How can anyone not like Him?


Ceridwen, maybe we as mortals are so blind to true beauty that we are incapable of seeing it properly in this state without some contrast.

So why doesn't god change our state then? That's my point.
So God waves the magic wand and everyone is perfect like the I-AM? Progression doesn't work that way....you have to earn your stars.

And "works" are a huge deal....so don't let the "once saved always saved" people misrepresent the true teachings of the Bible!


Furthermore, if God took away all of our needs......what would we need God for?

Well...what do we need him for now, exactly?

You need God if you want to have eternal life and if you wish to be eternally loved. The saying "you don't know what you've got until it's gone" truly applies to humans.....having the freedom to view alternatives to God's love changes the appreciation for being loved at all (remember the parable of the Prodigal Son? He brought about his own troubles but when he learned from his choices he was ready to come home....and there were open arms waiting there.)

Bottom line, you need to quit all of your atheist talk and get back to church you spinster you!!!

Hah! If only it were that easy.

The trouble for some atheists can be that they are actually very intelligent people. They are not willing to blindly accept doctrines that are contradictory or full of holes. That is why I searched diligently for something that harmonized the Bible and science and wasn't full of holes or contradictory (because I'm so darned intelligent :lol: )

My hope is that I can be a good ambassador to you for my beliefs and that these discussions will lead you back to church (and no it most certainly doesn't have to be mine). People can love and do so even with botched up doctrines. The question is if you are the kind of person that could worship and love in "ignorance". It's much harder to choose to be "ignorant" once your eyes have been opened to deeper levels of truth and knowledge. It sometimes creates a feeling of separation from those who don't share that perspective with you.

So my beliefs are quite different from many of the common churches who teach that you must believe the way that they do to avoid eternal damnation. The Spirit of what is taught is much more important than the letter of the law (even though the letter of the law is so fun to argue :smile: ).

Higher expressions of love must be attained!

Now get to it Sister Ceridwen!!! :wink:
 
Ceridwen,

I noticed that your profile says that you are from Ohio. I'm originally from Indianapolis and spent alot of time at a little amusement park in Ohio called "King's Island". Is it still there and have you ever been there?

Do they still have a roller coaster called "The Beast"?


Just wondering....
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
destinata7,

I personally don't believe that the only way we could attain eternal life was to have God's Son cruelly tortured and butchered on the cross. Jesus Christ was aware that there were other ways to impart salvation to mankind without the cross....nevertheless, things turned out that way due to the ignorance and violence of humankind. The willingness that Jesus Christ had to live a human life and show us all how to physically and spiritually overcome is pure love itself. That He did end up dying at the hands of those He came to save and the love that He demonstrated toward even those that were hurting Him is a testament to the savior He truly was!

How can anyone not like Him?

You say that he died on the cross due to the ignorance and violence of humankind, but it was part of god's plan also, was it not, (it was prophesied long before--according to the bible--that the messiah would suffer greatly)? It was the way god chose for our sins to be forgiven...all I'm saying is that he could have chosen a different way, and why didn't he?

And it's not that I don't like Jesus-- I am willing to accept that he was a real person who lived a life similar to the one documented in the bible-- I just don't believe he was the son of god. Just because I don't believe in the bible as the word of god, doesn't mean that I don't recognize that it has many good things to teach concerning morals, love thy neighbor, etc. All of these good qualities seem to come from the teachings of Jesus, and that says something.

So God waves the magic wand and everyone is perfect like the I-AM? Progression doesn't work that way....you have to earn your stars.

But why do we have to earn stars? Is this some kind of game show for god to watch? Does he have bets with the angels over who might reach star #500 first or something?

My hope is that I can be a good ambassador to you for my beliefs and that these discussions will lead you back to church (and no it most certainly doesn't have to be mine). People can love and do so even with botched up doctrines. The question is if you are the kind of person that could worship and love in "ignorance". It's much harder to choose to be "ignorant" once your eyes have been opened to deeper levels of truth and knowledge. It sometimes creates a feeling of separation from those who don't share that perspective with you.

Doesn't it bother you that you are turning your back on so called 'deeper levels of truth' and choosing to be ignorant? Aren't you ever interested that by exploring those deeper levels you may come to new conclusions? Maybe it's just a matter of different personalities, but personally, once I get a taste of something, I can't just ignore it.

So my beliefs are quite different from many of the common churches who teach that you must believe the way that they do to avoid eternal damnation. The Spirit of what is taught is much more important than the letter of the law (even though the letter of the law is so fun to argue ).

I commend you for taking your beliefs and making them your own. Too many people believe in Christianity because they were born into a family who believes in Christianity, and if they'd been born Muslim would just as easily be Muslim. Those people never question their faith or embark on real spiritual journies. It seems to me that you have, and that makes debating you very rewarding!

I noticed that your profile says that you are from Ohio. I'm originally from Indianapolis and spent alot of time at a little amusement park in Ohio called "King's Island". Is it still there and have you ever been there?

Do they still have a roller coaster called "The Beast"?


Just wondering....

Ah yes! King's Island is alive and well--and growing exponentially every year! The Beast is still there, and is still the longest wooden coaster, but has been overshadowed some by The Son of Beast, which is the world's only wooden coaster with upside down loops! The park is very much the same as it's always been at it's core, but new rides keep it spreading outwards! If you havn't been in awhile, I would highly recommend a visit!
 
You say that he died on the cross due to the ignorance and violence of humankind, but it was part of god's plan also, was it not, (it was prophesied long before--according to the bible--that the messiah would suffer greatly)?

The Bible also has many prophecies that still haven't been fulfilled to date. I don't believe that prophecy is fate. A prophecy is the declaration of a will of God already written into existence. Due to free will there are many destinies, some higher and some lower. Thes are the different "wills" of God that we can chose from with our free will.

You see, most christians will tell you that there is only one way into heaven. But the symbol of the Holy City of God is Jerusalem. And Jerusalem has twelve main gates!!! Not to mention all of the other lesser known ones. God is not limited to one path.....if God is rejected on one path, Am opens up another opportunity for salvation elsewhere. Maybe that's what is happening with our little discussions here......alternate opportunities. :wink: Why would God offer salvation to someone whom has rejected Am? Because God is pure love. And that love is unconditional. It is your choice as a free will agent whether to reciprocate or not. God's love is always there for you nonetheless.


It was the way god chose for our sins to be forgiven...all I'm saying is that he could have chosen a different way, and why didn't he?

Entities living in this realm are certainly subject to the hardships of this realm. Jesus could have done what Satan wished and used His spiritual connections to set up a kingdom. But then He would have had help and His perfect example of having been subjected to the same problems and temptations as we have would have negated this example of how to live a human life. Everything Jesus did on this planet can be accomplished by any believer in God. Jesus said that we would do even greater works than His!!!

He overcame the world and didn't cheat to do it! Was there another way that Jesus could have gone and still fulfilled other Messianic prophecies? I believe so. It doesn't lessen my admiration for His death on the cross.

The need for someone or something to physically die so someone else can be set free was a permissable will of God for a barbaric people who could understand nothing else. The true power of the cross doesn't lie in the crucifixion so much as in the ressurection. It's how Jesus lived that matter most. His death as an act of love has significance.....but life is stronger than death....and the Bible clearly teaches this (I've got loads of scriptures for you when you start believing in the Bible again).


But why do we have to earn stars? Is this some kind of game show for god to watch? Does he have bets with the angels over who might reach star #500 first or something?

Once someone has children of their own, they come to understand the vast pleasure one gains by watching them grow and progress through the various stages of their lives. It's a parenting thing.....not a wagering/game show thing.


Doesn't it bother you that you are turning your back on so called 'deeper levels of truth' and choosing to be ignorant?

I have the good fortune of attending a church of people that share my beliefs.

Aren't you ever interested that by exploring those deeper levels you may come to new conclusions?

There are always deeper levels of truth and they excite me tremendously! That doesn't take a lower level of truth ( a lesser perspective of truth) and turn it into a lie. Partial truth is truth too.

Maybe it's just a matter of different personalities, but personally, once I get a taste of something, I can't just ignore it.

I'm exactly the same way....but my search hasn't led me to atheism as yours has.

I commend you for taking your beliefs and making them your own. Too many people believe in Christianity because they were born into a family who believes in Christianity, and if they'd been born Muslim would just as easily be Muslim. Those people never question their faith or embark on real spiritual journies. It seems to me that you have, and that makes debating you very rewarding!

I have really enjoyed debating with you as well Ceridwen. You are truly a special person. I won't mislead you as to my family though. Most of my immediate family attends the same church as I do and shares many of the same beliefs. I am not pursuaded due to family connections, however, but by many many factors.......perhaps I'll tell you about it sometime.

Ah yes! King's Island is alive and well--and growing exponentially every year! The Beast is still there, and is still the longest wooden coaster, but has been overshadowed some by The Son of Beast, which is the world's only wooden coaster with upside down loops! The park is very much the same as it's always been at it's core, but new rides keep it spreading outwards! If you havn't been in awhile, I would highly recommend a visit!
[/quote]

I've been wanting to make a trip down there to check out my old stomping grounds for a long time. Perhaps I'll make it down there in the next few years.

Take care, Ceridwen
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
destinata7,

The Bible also has many prophecies that still haven't been fulfilled to date. I don't believe that prophecy is fate. A prophecy is the declaration of a will of God already written into existence. Due to free will there are many destinies, some higher and some lower. Thes are the different "wills" of God that we can chose from with our free will.

Do you believe that god knows which 'will' we will choose? If he does, then don't you think that that becomes kind of a solitary option? I mean, if god already knows what we will do, then he can safely right up a solid 'plan'...technically, those other choices or 'wills' would have existed, but they're unnecessary because god knows anyway....does that make sense?

You see, most christians will tell you that there is only one way into heaven. But the symbol of the Holy City of God is Jerusalem. And Jerusalem has twelve main gates!!! Not to mention all of the other lesser known ones. God is not limited to one path.....if God is rejected on one path, Am opens up another opportunity for salvation elsewhere.

That is a very good and interesting analogy. I've talked to a couple of Christians outside of these forums who are very close-minded on how one can get to god...I think I'll take this idea for a spin on them if you don't mind! :wink:

Because God is pure love. And that love is unconditional. It is your choice as a free will agent whether to reciprocate or not. God's love is always there for you nonetheless.

Do you believe that people who don't accept god go to hell?

I have the good fortune of attending a church of people that share my beliefs.

That is good fortune indeed! I am lucky to have a couple close friends (Mr. Spinkles included) who share my thoughts. Atheism seems to be quite the minority so I feel very lucky that I've found people who support me and whom I can support. If anything, just having people to bounce ideas off of and stuff is a huge relief!

Partial truth is truth too.

I keep trying to tell my mom that... :lol:

Seriously though, I agree with this.
 
Ceridwen018 said:
destinata7,

The Bible also has many prophecies that still haven't been fulfilled to date. I don't believe that prophecy is fate. A prophecy is the declaration of a will of God already written into existence. Due to free will there are many destinies, some higher and some lower. Thes are the different "wills" of God that we can chose from with our free will.

Do you believe that god knows which 'will' we will choose? If he does, then don't you think that that becomes kind of a solitary option? I mean, if god already knows what we will do, then he can safely right up a solid 'plan'...technically, those other choices or 'wills' would have existed, but they're unnecessary because god knows anyway....does that make sense?

If the Invisible God chose to read our "lattice-print" (spiritual and physical potentials based on spiritual state of mind or physical genetic and personality trait tendencies) at any point of our emerging state.....the I-AM would most certainly know the type of will alignments that we would be most likely to assimilate to.

However, the I-AM is too pure to look upon sin as stated in the Bible and would not choose to do this because out of mercy the I-AM would not wish anyone to be destroyed being caught with impurity in the presence of Absolute Purity.

That is why the I-AM never leaves the First Domain in first presence form but chooses to work through representatives such as the Holy Spirit and the angels.

As to the all-consuming knowledge of the angels.....the Bible is clear that there are some things that even they do not know! (such as the exact timing of the return of Christ)

You see, most christians will tell you that there is only one way into heaven. But the symbol of the Holy City of God is Jerusalem. And Jerusalem has twelve main gates!!! Not to mention all of the other lesser known ones. God is not limited to one path.....if God is rejected on one path, Am opens up another opportunity for salvation elsewhere.

That is a very good and interesting analogy. I've talked to a couple of Christians outside of these forums who are very close-minded on how one can get to god...I think I'll take this idea for a spin on them if you don't mind! :wink:

My intention here was not to give you more ammo against unsuspecting church-goers! I was hoping more to help impart to non-believers or those unsatisfied with the common conceptions of Biblical interpretations that there are different views of the Bible and God that do not contain the same apparent contradictions that some have noticed and had their "faith" destroyed by.

Because God is pure love. And that love is unconditional. It is your choice as a free will agent whether to reciprocate or not. God's love is always there for you nonetheless.

Do you believe that people who don't accept god go to hell?

Remember, God in AM's highest form is Pure Love. I believe that hell is merely separation from love. Because of free will people must have the right to chose this separation.

So, yes, I believe that people who reject love are separated from it's most perfect form out of free will choice.

I have the good fortune of attending a church of people that share my beliefs.

That is good fortune indeed! I am lucky to have a couple close friends (Mr. Spinkles included) who share my thoughts. Atheism seems to be quite the minority so I feel very lucky that I've found people who support me and whom I can support. If anything, just having people to bounce ideas off of and stuff is a huge relief!

It's nice to have the right of free will even to have the choice to be an atheist if one choses.....this is our gift from God and is beautiful even when bad choices are being made (no offence).

I still maintain that many atheists such as yourself have a belief in "God" but reject the typical church definitions of God because of the problematic effects some of these defintions are responsible for.

After all Ceridwen,

If:

God is love

and

God is good

Then if:

Ceridwen desires love

and

"good"-ness (there are levels of this and according to the Bible...God does some grading on the curve!)

Then:

Ceridwen desires God!!! (maybe a different representation of God than most christians would recognize.....but God nonetheless).



Thanks for being patient and discussing some of these concepts with me.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
destinata7,

Haha, nice word games! How 'bout this one?

God is love
Love is blind
Ray Charles is blind
Therefore, Ray Charles is god!!

My intention here was not to give you more ammo against unsuspecting church-goers! I was hoping more to help impart to non-believers or those unsatisfied with the common conceptions of Biblical interpretations that there are different views of the Bible and God that do not contain the same apparent contradictions that some have noticed and had their "faith" destroyed by.

And my intention was not to use it to 'destroy' the faith of church-goers, but to present new ideas to some people I know who seem to me to be bad Christians do to their close-mindedness. My goal is not for everyone to turn Atheist like me, but for everyone to analyze things logically. If you can do that and still be a Christian, great!

Remember, God in AM's highest form is Pure Love. I believe that hell is merely separation from love. Because of free will people must have the right to chose this separation.

So, yes, I believe that people who reject love are separated from it's most perfect form out of free will choice.

I like this idea. Most people say things like 'People who reject god have to live in eternal torture!'. This seems a bit sadistic to me--god punishing people for exercising their right to free-choice and not loving him! Your idea on the other hand, suggests that hell is not necessarily eternal brimstone, but rather the absence of god's love...which perhaps isn't so bad. Am I reading you right?

I still maintain that many atheists such as yourself have a belief in "God" but reject the typical church definitions of God because of the problematic effects some of these defintions are responsible for.

I rejected my church about 2 years ago, yet still maintained my belief in god. It wasn't until last summer that I rejected god. Now, god only exists for me as a thought.
 
Ceridwen018 said:
destinata7,

Haha, nice word games! How 'bout this one?

God is love
Love is blind
Ray Charles is blind
Therefore, Ray Charles is god!!

Definite problems in your linkage here....

God=love

Love=blind??????

Ray charles=blind??????? maybe one small charactaristic but I'm sure this doesn't describe every attribute of the man

Ray Charles=god well the Bible does say that "ye are gods" and I'm sure some of his fans thought so! :smile:

Remember, God in AM's highest form is Pure Love. I believe that hell is merely separation from love. Because of free will people must have the right to chose this separation.

So, yes, I believe that people who reject love are separated from it's most perfect form out of free will choice.

I like this idea. Most people say things like 'People who reject god have to live in eternal torture!'. This seems a bit sadistic to me--god punishing people for exercising their right to free-choice and not loving him! Your idea on the other hand, suggests that hell is not necessarily eternal brimstone, but rather the absence of god's love...which perhaps isn't so bad. Am I reading you right?

In all respects except your statement that separation from love itself isn't so bad.......people who reject love do feel negative effects from this. I contend that all expression of true love is expression of God and what God represents.

I still maintain that many atheists such as yourself have a belief in "God" but reject the typical church definitions of God because of the problematic effects some of these defintions are responsible for.

I rejected my church about 2 years ago, yet still maintained my belief in god. It wasn't until last summer that I rejected god. Now, god only exists for me as a thought.
[/quote]

I still maintain that the "God" that you rejected was the "God" as defined by the church that you attended. There is still hope that you could find another portrayal of what God stands for that would change your world forever. I believe this even if you don't and I will continue to pray that God does reveal this to you. And if a special sign or wonder is the only way, I pray that God will grant this to you.

Sincerely,
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
destinata7,

"I still maintain that the "God" that you rejected was the "God" as defined by the church that you attended. There is still hope that you could find another portrayal of what God stands for that would change your world forever. I believe this even if you don't and I will continue to pray that God does reveal this to you. And if a special sign or wonder is the only way, I pray that God will grant this to you."

I will always be sure to keep an open mind, but let me assure you that I did explore differnt avenues of the 'god figure'. Before I rejected god, I had evolved into a believer of the 'mother goddess'. Although that was very empowering and inspiring for me as a woman, I realized that just because it gave me psychological benefit, didn't make it true. However, I am happy to report that even after denying my imaginary source of support, I am no worse for wear.
 
Ceridwen,

Ah but alas, you have lost your "psychological benefit".

Is it possible that people who "think" that they are happy really are happy?? (Gasp!) Oh my, the Holy Placebo really does set your feet to dancin' then! And if it really does....maybe it's not just a "placebo" after all, but something far far more real than anyone could ever even imagine (okay maybe some people have the gist of the idea).

I'm telling you Ceridwen, it is powerful enough to pursuade me....and I can be a pretty stubborn dude sometimes! Maybe you've forgotten....or worse yet, maybe you've never felt the presence of the Holy Spirit? Are you going to share this info with me?
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
destinata7,

I have lost that bit of p\sychological benefit, but the gaps have been filled. No biggie.

I'm not saying that the 'psychological benefit' of god doesn't yeild real results, but I'm searching for truth here, not happiness.

As far as experiences with the holy spirit goes...when I believed in god, I would have said that I most certainly did...but now I recognize them as...I dunno, something simpler I guess. I ride horses--I love my horses and my riding more than anything else in the world. I used to feel like I was having a spiritual experince everytime I rode just because it affects me in a way nothing ever has. I still consider my riding to be a spiritual experience, but I don't attribute it to the holy spirit anymore (obviously).
 
Ceridwen018 said:
destinata7,

I have lost that bit of p\sychological benefit, but the gaps have been filled. No biggie.

I'm not saying that the 'psychological benefit' of god doesn't yeild real results, but I'm searching for truth here, not happiness.

As far as experiences with the holy spirit goes...when I believed in god, I would have said that I most certainly did...but now I recognize them as...I dunno, something simpler I guess. I ride horses--I love my horses and my riding more than anything else in the world. I used to feel like I was having a spiritual experince everytime I rode just because it affects me in a way nothing ever has. I still consider my riding to be a spiritual experience, but I don't attribute it to the holy spirit anymore (obviously).

I knew there had to be a reason that you kept bringing up unicorns! :lol:

I'll tell you why that it is a spiritual experience for you. You love horses and feel that love when you are with them. I really think that when I tell you that "God is love" you don't understand the fullness of what that entails. The act of "loving" is the act of "God-ing". When you express and experience love it is God Amself (I don't like to say "Him" as I don't believe God is either male or female) that you are expressing and experiencing. Love, love, love................God! And love feels sooooo good.
 
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