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Evidence for YHWH that is not evidence for the IPU

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
Limbo said:
And historical evidence is evidence...according to this definition:


ev·i·dence (
ebreve.gif
v
prime.gif
ibreve.gif
-d
schwa.gif
ns) [size=-2]KEY [/size]

[size=-1]NOUN: [/size]
  1. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: [size=+0]The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.[/size]
  2. Something indicative; an outward sign: [size=+0]evidence of grief on a mourner's face.[/size]
  3. Law The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law.
[size=-1]TRANSITIVE VERB: [/size]
[font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]ev·i·denced[/size][/font] , [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]ev·i·denc·ing[/size][/font] , [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]ev·i·denc·es[/size][/font]
  1. To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove.
  2. To support by testimony; attest.
[font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]IDIOM: [/size][/font]
[font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]in evidence [/size][/font]
  1. Plainly visible; to be seen: [size=+0]It was early, and few pedestrians were in evidence on the city streets.[/size]
  2. Law As legal evidence: [size=+0]submitted the photograph in evidence.[/size]
Are you sure the broken window wasn't caused by a kid, and the kid lied and said there was a burglary to get exempt from punishment?

Are you sure the grief on the mourners face isn't just acting?

You keep failing to think god can be proven on law and order.

History does NOT indicate clearly, exemplify, or prove gods existence.

Support by testimony does not necessitate fact.

It is also plainly visible that god does not exist.

And if someone could take a picture of god, you'd have an argument. But since that will NEVER happen, law and order falls short once again.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Limbo - you arguments are becoming a bore. There is no need for any of us to respond to your posts
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Since you see them as crap leads me to believe you have not studied any logic at all.
I think he sees them as cr*p in the same way I do, that I have never seen anyone anywhere pose such arguements. If not I am sorry for speaking what I don't know.

Support by testimony does not necessitate fact.
You are hung up on the idea that he is trying to prove unequivocably that God exists(which as far as I have read he has yet to claim).

Now, I have never said the support by testimony necessitates fact, but it does lend credence. LENDS CREDENCE.

It is also plainly visible that god does not exist.
No such thing is plainly visible.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
*****MOD POST*****

There isn't any cause for anybody to insult anyone. No more references to other people's posts as "crap" or them as "bores."
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
I don't agree to your definition because it can't be used within the argument for god. Your definition works fine in the material sense, but not in the sense in which the concept of god is argued within. I understand that you are not trying to prove that god exists, only that it is likely that he does. Even so, history cannot be used, and thus the evidence for the likelihood of yahweh can be used for any other god. You claim I don't use reason, yet you still put forth fallacy after fallacy and claim reason for yourself. I notice now that you have no inclination to argue this logically, and am getting quite unnerved that you insist on not doing so. So instead of breaking something, I am not going to participate in your little argument here. I pointed you in the direction of logic, I leave it up to you to choose which way to go. I still want you to find all the statistics you can on bible prophecies, you may have an argument there. But I will no longer try to forcefeed your fallacies to you. I wish you luck in your prophecy research, and look forward to discussing, and perhaps debating your findings. Good night.
 

Pilgrim

New Member
First of all, I'd like to thank all of you for providing such an excellent debate. However, I am a little confused.

Tao Vigil, you assert that historical evidence is not evidence for the existence of the metaphysical aspects of the bible; namely, prophecy, right?
You also assert that evidence for biblical prophecies claimed by God is a better barometer than historical evidence, correct?

Quote: "Have you found statistics on the total number of biblical prophecies, and the number of them that have actually been true? That is your best bet, why you keep losing sight of that I'll never know. But the bible cannot be used to prove that yahweh is god, anymore than it can be proved that the IPU is god. You will be lucky enough with your prophecy argument to atleast argue validly for the existence of the "uncommon ability" in which you call supernatural. But this does not come close to prove the existence of one god over another another." end quote.

When you ask for proof of a fulfillment of a prophecy, you are asking for a specific event, at a certain time, at a certain place that the fulfillment took place. In essence, you are requiring that a moment of history be submitted as evidence for the metaphysical claims of the bible.

Quote: "history doesn't have any bearing on the metaphysical claims." end quote.

P.S. be gentle, its my first post.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Limbo said:
In the prophecy department, here are a few quick examples:

1.) The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again-ref Isa 66:8; Mic 5:3. Prophecy fulfilled. This happened exactly as predicted on May 14, 1948. That’s 1 out of 1.

2.) Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2.

3.) The rebirth of Israel would happen after many days. It would occur a long time in the future after the prophecy was made and at the time the bible calls the latter days-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 3 out of 3.

4.) Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) “out of the nations.”-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 4 out of 4.

5.) Israel must regain the city of Jerusalem-Joel 2:32; Isa 28:14; Ezek 22:19. This happened just as predicted in 1967. That’s 5 out of 5.
You've only given us 4 prophecies # 1 and #2 are from the same verse. #2 is disqualified.

The event you claim in #1 can not be validated because of your reference to Micah. Micah 5 speaks of " 8 The remnant of Jacob will be among the nations," It does not apply to 1948. Isaiah 66 speaks of Jerusalem IN CONTEXT and that did not happen until 1967. Neither of these two reference are accomplished in 1948

You have 3 remaining

#3 IN CONTEXT refers to "1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog" a command not a prohecy. The "many years" refers to many troops from other nations. Isreal was not reclaimed in 1947 by an invading army

You have 2 remaining

#4 is the same "prophecy"( a command not a prophecy) as #3 - #4 is disqualified.

You have 1 remaining

In Ezekiel 22: 19-20, THE CONTEXT is "19 Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: 'Because you have all become dross, I will gather you into Jerusalem. 20 As men gather silver, copper, iron, lead and tin into a furnace to melt it with a fiery blast, so will I gather you in my anger and my wrath and put you inside the city and melt you." punishment Tis verse does not predict 1967 (Where there men "melted"?)

In Isa 28:14 it specifically says that others rule Jerusalem "14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD , you scoffers who rule this people in Jerusalem." The CONTEXT of the "prophecy does not support 1967.

In Joel 2:32 THE CONTEXT says that the holding armies would be driven into the baren lands and the eastern and western seas. Thjis did not happen in 1967

That eliminates all that you listed.

Try again!!!




:woohoo:
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Lightkeeper said:
If you don't want to be confronted with God, then why do you hand out at a religious forum?;)
In order to understand WHY I`m confronted with God so often everywhere else.
 

Pah

Uber all member
You know Limbo, unless you are Dark_Stream or Dr. Charles Halff (those are the names of posters where I found your list) you have plagarized somebody else's work.

You have set us on a task with a great deal of work and all by copying somebody else's writing. You don't even have the curtesy to acknowledge that somebody else originated the list. Which means that you have stolen intelectual property.

I am going to ask the moderators to delete your post because it is against Religious Forums policy.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
Umm limbo....Judiasm is a religion not a race. There is no such thing as a jewish race anymore than there is a christian race or hindu. I would expect more genealogy evidence before you say israel descendants reclaimed their land....The link is a religious preferance not a race or genealogical line.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Limbo said:
Do whatever you think is right. If you do that though I will interprete your actions as an admission of defeat.

A typical tactic people in your position use when confronted with evidence they cannot immediately refute is to attack the source and get the evidence removed...so that they don't have to deal with it. It's cowardly, but it's also human nature.

If Dark_Stream or Dr. Charles Halff are Christians, they will be overjoyed that their arguements are used by Christians in religious debates. Christians belive in spreading the Word, and spreading the wisdom and knowledge they get from the Word. They would rebuke your efforts to dodge the point. In fact, they would probably interprete any claim to intellectual property as blasphemy.

If you must then go to their websites, examine their claims, and come back here and report your findings. Simply eliminate me as the middle-man. I bet you won't do that though.
You have not even apologized!!!!

I have shown that I am willing to put in the work to debunk your claims but it turns out they are NOT your claims. You left my rebuttal of your first list intact and instead submitted a second list, a plaragized list.

You seem to be a self-serving Christian when you foster the belief that stealling is a good way to spread God's word.

 

Pah

Uber all member
Limbo said:
In the prophecy department, here are a few quick examples:

1.) The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again-ref Isa 66:8; Mic 5:3. Prophecy fulfilled. This happened exactly as predicted on May 14, 1948. That’s 1 out of 1.

2.) Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2.

3.) The rebirth of Israel would happen after many days. It would occur a long time in the future after the prophecy was made and at the time the bible calls the latter days-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 3 out of 3.

4.) Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) “out of the nations.”-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 4 out of 4.

5.) Israel must regain the city of Jerusalem-Joel 2:32; Isa 28:14; Ezek 22:19. This happened just as predicted in 1967. That’s 5 out of 5.
By the way, this list appears at http://www.innerlifewellness.com/inspiration/docs/testimony.html and is yet another dispicable act of theft.

That, my friend, is two out of two!!!!!!
 

Pah

Uber all member
Limbo said:
Lol, do I owe you an apology? ...
[emphas in quote is mine]You owe Religious Forums an apology instead of laughing about it.

Now, I'm not going to discuss your sins again. You need to do your own work
 

Pah

Uber all member
Limbo said:
...
"If you must then go to their websites, examine their claims, and come back here and report your findings. Simply eliminate me as the middle-man. I bet you won't do that though."

Limbo - post ID 129343 said:
Each and everyone of these is a mistake. I've seen this stuff on the net and it's all mistakes, bias, false logic and misconceptions. Is this the stuff you "assume" is true?
I believe this quote covers it. You now have a chance to refute that THAT
 

Pah

Uber all member
Limbo said:
I have e-mailed Dr. Charles Halff, and provided him with a link to this thread. I asked him to take a look and tell me if he feels I have stolen his intellectual property. When (if) he gets back to me I will post his responce here. Or, hopefully he will chime in himself.

As for Dark_Stream, I'm working on it.
You would do well to find the original author of your first list. As a help, this is a list of "hits" for the phrase ""Israel shall be brought forth in one day" on google
Incredible Testimony
... Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy
fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That's 2 out of 2. Note: On Nov. ...
www.innerlifewellness.com/ inspiration/docs/testimony.html - 27k - Cached - Similar pages

Mega site of Bible studies and information
... Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy
fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2. Note: On Nov. ...
www.biblesearchengine.com/main.htm - 71k - Cached - Similar pages

A Bible Prophecy Study on the signs of the times
... Israel shall be brought forth in one day. 7. Israel was to be reborn instantly,
at once. 8. Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) out of the nations ...
www.parentalguide.com/Documents/ Bible_Prophecy/Signs_of_the_times.htm - 53k - Cached - Similar pages

Bible Prophecy
... Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isaiah 66:8. Prophecy
fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2. Note: On Nov. ...
www.sungjado.org/bibleprophecy.htm - 49k - Cached - Similar pages

Bible Proof
... 2. Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy
fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2. Note: On Nov. ...
www.heavenlyharvest.com/BibleProof.htm - 103k - Cached - Similar pages

La fine del mondo - [ Translate this page ]
... Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy
fulfilled-May 14, 1948. .. Note: On Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the ...
www.fenice.info/x-files/endworld.asp - 140k - Cached - Similar pages

Mega site of Bible studies and information
... 2. Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy
fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2. Note: On Nov. ...
annashewhodances.blogpsot.com/ - 73k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

A Bible Prophecy Study on the signs of the times
... THE REBIRTH OF ISRAEL. 5. Israel must be reborn as a nation. 6. Israel shall be
brought forth in one day. 7. Israel was to be reborn instantly, at once. ...
annashewhodances.blogpsot.com/ Documents/Bible_Prophecy/Signs_of_the_times.htm - 54k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Signs of the times? - Revelation and Prophecy :: Eschatology ...
... THE REBIRTH OF ISRAEL 5. Israel must be reborn as a nation. 6. Israel shall be brought
forth in one day. 7. Israel was to be reborn instantly, at once. ...
www.freejesus.net/home/viewtopic.php?p=11489 - 82k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Christian Gate Christian Forums - View Single Post - Do we know ...
... 2. Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-(ref Isa 66:8). Prophecy
fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2. Note: On Nov. ...
www.christian-gate.com/jesus-saves/ showpost.php?p=251&postcount=3 - 18k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Survivor's Bible Prophecy Page...
... 2.) Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once -ref Isa 66:8. (Prophecy
Fulfilled On May 14, 1948. That’s 2 for 2) Note: On Nov. ...
members.aol.com/_ht_a/dansdarkerside/ BibleProphecyindex.html - 101k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Mega site of Bible studies and information
... 2. Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy
fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That抯 2 out of 2. Note: On Nov. ...
dfzx.com.cn/cgi-bin/bigate2.cgi/ b/k/k/[email protected]/ - 74k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

[Do you follow a religion] - IronMagazine Bodybuilding, Health & ...
... reborn. quote: Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa
66:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. Note: On Nov. 29 ...
www.ironmagazineforums.com/history/topic/19295-2.html - 101k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Limbo said:
So if all of these websites have the same prophesies I used...which one has the claim to intellectual property? Why aren't they all accusing each other of intellectual theft? Why aren't they suing each other...to claim possesion of the theories they describe?

I don't think you can know without a lot of research. For all you know it came from a book in the 70s whose contents have been copied and recopied. It happens a lot. All you can do is make a reference to it when using it.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Yes, that gives credit to where you got it. It's usually a good policy to post a link.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Limbo said:
Ah, ok then problem solved....
Only the problem of your plagarizing seems to be solved.

The real problem is you have chosen to copy prophecy from some other poster and have not done any research on the material!!!

The context of Joel 3 does NOT occur in 1947

The context of Amos 9 does NOT occur in modern times

The context of Obadiah 1 does not occur in 1967 - the clue, even without referencing the bible, was the time frame of 2000 years

Now, Limbo, that's the first three of this list. You are using me to do work you should have done in the first place. You have taken the word of a website and not gone to the source of the prophecy to authenicate the website.. I suspect that you did not even read the verses to confirm my rebuke of your first list. You, I'm afraid, are wasting our time.

If you want to continue your argument of prophecy with me, I am going to insist that you verify that the prophecy from the site is indeed applicable.
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
Limbo said:
Maybe Master Vigil will provide a link to his list of fallicies next...I'de like to see exactly which site he got it from.
Actually, Master Vigil tends to be quite accurate in stating where he gets information. More often, it's simply because he knows it offhand, though.

I think you would get a lot more people willing to help you debate if were kinder to those around you. (And maybe said you were honestly sorry to those you have been not very nice to.)
 
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