• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Throne of Satan

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Lucifer is a hoax. He/It (if you can call it anything) is not satan. The word that they tried to make be lucifer should of been translated... are you ready for this..........................................................


HOWL.

Thats right howl. Check this out...

Next I will list the King James renderings of the word that is found in the "Hebrew" texts and transliterations of its various forms in every occurrence in the entire KJV Bible. Now you can be the judge. In all Hebrew or Aramaic texts of Isa. 14:12, the only word found is "heh-lehl," eill, which is a form of the Hebrew stem "yah-lahl," ill, meaning howl. Here is Kittel’s Hebrew Text for the Hebrew Stem ill—"yah-lahl"—HOWL:
Isa. 13:6 eiliu Howl ye
Isa. 14:31 eili Howl
Isa. 15:2 iilil shall howl
Isa. 15:3 iilil shall howl
Isa. 16:7 iilil Howl
Isa. 16:7 iilil shall howl
Isa. 23:1 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 23:6 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 23:14 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 52:5 eililu make to howl
Isa. 65:14 eililu shall howl
Jer. 4:8 ueililu Howl
Jer. 25:34 eililu Howl
Jer. 47:2 ueill and shall howl
Jer. 48:20 eilili Howl
Jer. 48:31 ailil will I howl
Jer. 48:39 eililu They shall howl (Howl ye)
Jer. 49:3 eilili Howl (Howl ye)
Jer. 51:8 eililu howl
Ezek.30:2 eililu Howl ye
Hos. 7:14 iililu They howled
Joel 1:5 ueililu And howl
Joel 1:11 eililu howl
Joel 1:13 eililu And shall be howlings
Amos 8:1 ueililu and howl
Micah 1:8 uailile howl ye
Zeph. 1:11aililu Howl
Zech.11:2 eill howl
Zech.11:2 eililu howl
Isa. 14:12 eill Lucifer (??)

I don’t believe one has to be a Hebrew scholar to see at a glance that "Lucifer" is totally out of place in this list. The meaning of this word is clear; eill is a verb that means "HOWL", and not a noun than can be twisted into a personal name such as "lucifer"!

Is there no end to the religious lies fostered on the naive Church? I assure you there is an end, and that end may be soon in sight!

And notice carefully that the Hebrew verb eill in Isa. 14:12 is the identical form of the first verb eill in Zech. 11:2. Now try substituting the personal noun "Lucifer" in place of the verb "howl" in the two places it occurs in Zech. 11:2. Here as in many Scriptures, the trees are likened to people who are crying out because of the death and destruction:
"Lucifer, fir tree; for the cedar is fallen; because the mighty are spoiled: Lucifer, O ye oaks of Bashan; for the forest of the ventage is come down."

Such a translation would be nonsense. Or let’s try it back in Isa. 14 where we find the word Lucifer in verse 12, but notice how this word is translated in verse 31: Instead of "Howl, O gate; cry, O city…" We would have, "Lucifer, O gate; cry, O city…" Again, such a translation would be nonsense, as it is also nonsense in Isa. 14:12.

(an excerpt from a good friend)

I already knew that the angel Lucifer did not appear anywhere in canonized Christian Scripture; he is part of lore and legend. And I never believed that the King James Version was the definitive English translation; I thought you'd have figured that out from my other posts.

HOWEVER, the word "Lucifer" does appear in the Vulgate:

Isa 14:12 : quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes

This is the passage that is referring to the fallen Babylonian King. The word also appears later in II Peter:

II Peter 1:19 et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris

This passage seems to be using the word Lucifer, the morning star, to refer to enlightenment, though you could say it refers to Jesus.

And in Roman lore, Lucifer was the name given to the planet that is today named after Venus.

I think it was later when the fallen angel who refused to bow to mankind per God's orders, called in the Qur'an Iblis, was related to the serpent who tempted Eve, who could be related to Prometheus of Greek mythology. Prometheus brought fire to mankind... and one aspect of fire is that it provides light. Prometheus brought light to mankind... light bringer: Lucifer. The serpent brought the light of knowledge of good and evil to mankind... light bringer: Lucifer.

Therefore it's just a title given to the fallen angel. No one ever claimed that, that was actually his name. (I've given him the name of Orel, Light of God)
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
correct me if I'm wrong...
but according to the christian bible,
didn't Satan tempt Jesus with all the kingdoms of the world
if he would but bow down to him?

If the kingdom's of the world were not satan's to give,
how would this have been a temptation?


The kingdoms of the world were satans. Whether he recieved it legitimately is another thing all together.

But when adam and eve, who were the rulers of this earth to start with, listened to satan...he became their master, and therefore he could take whatever was theirs.

Now jesus, who did not listen to satan, took that which satan took, back.

He took the authority over this planet back, but taking back the territory of satan is an ongoing thing...until one day...jesus will hand back that which god gave to adam and eve to his father.

A chirstian should be an overcomer. It is an ongoing war and battle. And the way for jesus to reclaim territory is by having children that LISTEN to him, follow him, and trust him.

Since satan was chief in charge of this place for many centuries, it is likely that he had a throne here. A place to opperate from. He cannot like god be everywhere at the same time.
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
I already knew that the angel Lucifer did not appear anywhere in canonized Christian Scripture; he is part of lore and legend. And I never believed that the King James Version was the definitive English translation; I thought you'd have figured that out from my other posts.

HOWEVER, the word "Lucifer" does appear in the Vulgate:

Isa 14:12 : quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes

This is the passage that is referring to the fallen Babylonian King. The word also appears later in II Peter:

II Peter 1:19 et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris

This passage seems to be using the word Lucifer, the morning star, to refer to enlightenment, though you could say it refers to Jesus.

And in Roman lore, Lucifer was the name given to the planet that is today named after Venus.

I think it was later when the fallen angel who refused to bow to mankind per God's orders, called in the Qur'an Iblis, was related to the serpent who tempted Eve, who could be related to Prometheus of Greek mythology. Prometheus brought fire to mankind... and one aspect of fire is that it provides light. Prometheus brought light to mankind... light bringer: Lucifer. The serpent brought the light of knowledge of good and evil to mankind... light bringer: Lucifer.

Therefore it's just a title given to the fallen angel. No one ever claimed that, that was actually his name. (I've given him the name of Orel, Light of God)


Actually most of christainity believe that Lucifer and Satan are one in the same and a fallen angel who tried to dethrone God. Which is not true
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Actually most of christainity believe that Lucifer and Satan are one in the same and a fallen angel who tried to dethrone God. Which is not true

I know; that's what I said. They gave the fallen angel the name Lucifer, when the name was already used to describe other things in the Bible: first a Babylonian King, then Jesus himself.

Understand we don't know any of these entities' "real" names, or if they even have names (many assert they don't exist, which invalidates all our arguments about their names as then it wouldn't matter what they're called).
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
OIHHH....sorry the mike isnt working.:D

Is this the ...satan vs lucifer thread?

No worries guys....but im really after this throne of satan....i was hoping for now we could just ease up on the satan lucifer debate...


WHY? cause i wanna throw petrol on the flames.


The king of tyre...(satan, :cover:lucifer,:cover:the serpent:cover:)...was with eve and adam in the garden

Ezekiel 28: 11The word of the LORD came to me: 12"Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: `This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" `You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God;

If the king of Tyre was in the garden..then the king of tyre was also satan...and that is where he had his throne initially, in tyre
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
OIHHH....sorry the mike isnt working.:D

Is this the ...satan vs lucifer thread?

No worries guys....but im really after this throne of satan....i was hoping for now we could just ease up on the satan lucifer debate...


WHY? cause i wanna throw petrol on the flames.


The king of tyre...(satan, :cover:lucifer,:cover:the serpent:cover:)...was with eve and adam in the garden

Ezekiel 28: 11The word of the LORD came to me: 12"Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: `This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" `You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God;

If the king of Tyre was in the garden..then the king of tyre was also satan...and that is where he had his throne initially, in tyre

No, No. You must remember and its real important to know this if you are to really understand the Word clearly. Gods words are spirit.

Joh 6:63 - It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Lets break that verse down...

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Notice the words in red. That is basically what Jesus is saying without all the extra words. If you can learn this Truth so much more can be opened up to you.

Anyway now for that king of tyre verse. Jesus is the God of the OT right? Right. Now also when He speaks, His words are spirit. Just like in the NT when He is speaking to the multitudes He only uses parables and without a parable He didnt speak.

Mt 13:34 - All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
So even in the OT when He is speaking to the multitudes (thats us) He is still speaking in parables.

Now with that out of the way...the king of tyre in the Garden of Eden. Remember in your other thread about the rule of Jesus or something like that, that heaven is not a location its a "state of mind". Well this is saying the same thing about the king of tyre. In his mind he was in his garden of eden, his heaven. Lets look at the verses before 11 and you will see what im saying.

1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst F133 of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: 3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee: 4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: 5 By thy great F134 wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches: 6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; 7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. 8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. 9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth F135 thee. 10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

Now spirit doesnt die and satan is a spirit. A man can die! When God uses seas, he is talking about mankind.

This is also a great to prove that mankind doesnt have a free will, but thats another thread.

The throne of Satan is in most of mankind who believe in their heart and mind that they are gods themselves like the king of tyre and babylon and by their own will they can acheive anything without God. This is how satan sits on Gods throne/in His temple.

1Co 6:19 - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
2Co 6:16 - And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Th 2:4 - Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

and one more...


Eze 14:7 - "'When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the Lord will answer him myself.

Doesnt it all just come together so wonderfully!!:yes:
 
Last edited:

AK4

Well-Known Member
Oh and the model of perfection, full of wisdom and bueaty is what the king tyre was thinking and feeling about himself.
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
No, No. You must remember and its real important to know this if you are to really understand the Word clearly. Gods words are spirit.

Joh 6:63 - It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Lets break that verse down...

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Notice the words in red. That is basically what Jesus is saying without all the extra words. If you can learn this Truth so much more can be opened up to you.

Anyway now for that king of tyre verse. Jesus is the God of the OT right? Right. Now also when He speaks, His words are spirit. Just like in the NT when He is speaking to the multitudes He only uses parables and without a parable He didnt speak.

Mt 13:34 - All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
So even in the OT when He is speaking to the multitudes (thats us) He is still speaking in parables.

Now with that out of the way...the king of tyre in the Garden of Eden. Remember in your other thread about the rule of Jesus or something like that, that heaven is not a location its a "state of mind". Well this is saying the same thing about the king of tyre. In his mind he was in his garden of eden, his heaven. Lets look at the verses before 11 and you will see what im saying.

1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst F133 of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: 3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee: 4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: 5 By thy great F134 wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches: 6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; 7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. 8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. 9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth F135 thee. 10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

Now spirit doesnt die and satan is a spirit. A man can die! When God uses seas, he is talking about mankind.

This is also a great to prove that mankind doesnt have a free will, but thats another thread.

The throne of Satan is in most of mankind who believe in their heart and mind that they are gods themselves like the king of tyre and babylon and by their own will they can acheive anything without God. This is how satan sits on Gods throne/in His temple.

1Co 6:19 - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
2Co 6:16 - And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Th 2:4 - Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
and one more...


Eze 14:7 - "'When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the Lord will answer him myself.
Doesnt it all just come together so wonderfully!!:yes:

Im not use to so much post-modernist oratorical fireworks...give me a few minutes...
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
If satan is in our minds..like you have explained before, and god is in heaven...that would mean he is in our minds. Which means god is only that which our mind can conceive.

What do you think jesus meant when he said...he is going to prepare a place for us? And to where did jesus ascend? Surely not to our minds.
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
I understand that satan is a spirit, but a spirit needs a body. (clothes)

All spirits on this planet is in a body. Even jesus when he left here...had a body that could be touched.

So to me the king of tyre could very well have been satan in a body. The man satan was in would die, but the spirit of satan would continue, it would continue within the body of another man.

Demons need bodies to live in....they even begged jesus to send them into the pigs once since they were scared to death to be 'homeless'.

Heneni
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
If satan is in our minds..like you have explained before, and god is in heaven...that would mean he is in our minds. Which means god is only that which our mind can conceive.

What do you think jesus meant when he said...he is going to prepare a place for us? And to where did jesus ascend? Surely not to our minds.

Satan gets into our minds. Jesus was just a man at first and therefore couldnt literally get into our minds. He was changed to spirit in His resurrection so now as the Comforter, He is able to get into our minds.

Prepare a place for us? I dont fully understand that one right now to be honest with you. I know the answer, but i dont fully understand it. Maybe the place He prepares for us is His throne (our mind and hearts) that He says He will share with those who believe and overcome. He prepares us to have the same mind as His, to do the Will of the Father. I could back this up with scripture but i dont want to get long winded.
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
Satan gets into our minds. Jesus was just a man at first and therefore couldnt literally get into our minds. He was changed to spirit in His resurrection so now as the Comforter, He is able to get into our minds.

Prepare a place for us? I dont fully understand that one right now to be honest with you. I know the answer, but i dont fully understand it. Maybe the place He prepares for us is His throne (our mind and hearts) that He says He will share with those who believe and overcome. He prepares us to have the same mind as His, to do the Will of the Father. I could back this up with scripture but i dont want to get long winded.

If jesus came back as spirit...then he is able to get into our minds without having to be physically present. But i consider the HS to be a seperate being to Jesus. But thats another thread.

Also...if jesus is seated next to god the father...then...where is god sitting? In my head? In my heart? Ok...i can even understand that.

But there are different levels of truth. So i think that what you are saying about satan having his throne in the hearts of men, and god having his temple in us, makes a lot of sense...but still jesus had a tangable body when he left this planet...where did he go? If not to a place called heaven? And if that be the case, he has a place where he rules from and so does satan.

But please continue if you want to...the throne of satan is in our hearts, or mind, and also the dwelling place of god is amongst men and also in their hearts and minds.

So heaven and hell is both here together in US. Does that accurately describe what you are saying.
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
I understand that satan is a spirit, but a spirit needs a body. (clothes)

All spirits on this planet is in a body. Even jesus when he left here...had a body that could be touched.

So to me the king of tyre could very well have been satan in a body. The man satan was in would die, but the spirit of satan would continue, it would continue within the body of another man.

Demons need bodies to live in....they even begged jesus to send them into the pigs once since they were scared to death to be 'homeless'.

Heneni

Satan could have possessed them no doubt and if you think about it When God is saying this to the king of tyre and if the king was possessed by satan, He could be saying this to them both even further making this verse true. But thats just speculation on my part
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
Satan could have possessed them no doubt and if you think about it When God is saying this to the king of tyre and if the king was possessed by satan, He could be saying this to them both even further making this verse true. But thats just speculation on my part

Well in a thread like 'the throne of satan' i think lots of speculation is in order. We might just hit something somewhere.

But i think that your point of view about satans throne being in the heart and mind of men, and the temple of god being in us as well is true too.

I have to go now..but its really nice to talk about it.

Till next time!
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
If jesus came back as spirit...then he is able to get into our minds without having to be physically present. But i consider the HS to be a seperate being to Jesus. But thats another thread.

Also...if jesus is seated next to god the father...then...where is god sitting? In my head? In my heart? Ok...i can even understand that.

God the Father can not sit , stand or what have you. The Father is invisible and is all around and everywhere in everything. We are in the Father. For example if the ocean is God then we are the fish. Jesus is like the King fish inside of God. The Holy Spirit is the power of God and not a third entity so no trinity, but thats another thread.

But there are different levels of truth. So i think that what you are saying about satan having his throne in the hearts of men, and god having his temple in us, makes a lot of sense...but still jesus had a tangable body when he left this planet...where did he go? If not to a place called heaven? And if that be the case, he has a place where he rules from and so does satan.

It appears that Jesus has the ability now to go physical and spiritual going by the scriptures, but really the bible doesnt specifically state what happens in the resurrection. But Jesus ascended in a spiritual form. He went to the throne of God (not a literal throne) and this is in the hearts and mind of those whom the Father is calling in this age, but not to everyone yet, but that will happen.

Satan (or the things He represents, like free will) does "rule" in the hearts and minds of most of mankind right now. When he showed Jesus the nations when He was tempting Him, this was symbolic of people (nations symbolises mankind)

So heaven and hell is both here together in US. Does that accurately describe what you are saying.

You say hell is here on earth now, but hell is not a literal place nor is it real period. The concept of hell started with the Egyptians and past along through the world through so many different religions and philosophies.

The concept or thought of what heaven is in all of us yes, but the real Heaven isnt because....

1Co 2:9 - However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"--
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
Thank you for your answer. Its thought provoking. Never thought of god as the ocean enveloping all of us.. however there is just one thing about that...the ocean is not in the fish. Neither is jesus. But the bible says that god comes to make his home in us...so in that sense god occupies this earth by being in 'temples'.

That kind of 'occupation' if you will, is different to god being everywhere....god is energy...and so in that sense...god is able to be everywhere at the same time, and occupy our us, his temples all at the same time..

I didnt know the egyptians came up with it the idea of hell:eek:.

Id be hard pressed to believe that there isnt a hell though. There is just too many scriptures in the bible that indicate otherwise. I just dont interpret it as being an upcoming torture chamber, but rather this earth is hell. The idea is to get out of it, and back to god. But eventually all of this will be destroyed as well, and so will hell, and everyone that is left in it.

What if hell was both a place and a state of mind? The same with heaven? Is that really so impossible?
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
Hello Heneni,
I have decided I now know where the throne of Satan is....he has relocated to a business run by 3 lovely ladies on RF......You were right, imagination is great. :D

Love
Charity
 
Top