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Miracles

Jeremy Mason

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
Bouncing Ball said:
Yes. And I'll give you a christian link why :D

Quantum physics works with the way particles work. We don't work that way.
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I like the part where the guy says,"...to not be curious about them is like being three-quarters of the way to being dead." Call it faith, science or both, but I think there is more to reality than meets our eyes.
 
BruceDLimber

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member

Greetings! :)

(I'm tempted to quote Ambrose Bierce on miracles:

"An event or occurrence out of sorts with nature an unaccountable, as beating an ordinary hand of four kings and and ace with four aces and a king.") :-S

Anyway, we Baha'is explicitly discount miracles as proofs or teaching aids, though we freely admit they do indeed exist! The quote following may be of interest.

From the Baha'i scriptures:

Chapter 22: MIRACLES​

“Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.”

“Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

“But in the Holy Books an especial terminology is employed, and for the Manifestations these miracles and wonderful signs have no importance. They do not even wish to mention them. For if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent.

“For example, if we relate to a seeker, a stranger to Moses and Christ, marvelous signs, he will deny them and will say: “Wonderful signs are also continually related of false gods by the testimony of many people, and they are affirmed in the Books. The Brahmans have written a book about wonderful prodigies from Brahma.” He will also say: “How can we know that the Jews and the Christians speak the truth, and that the Brahmans tell a lie? For both are generally admitted traditions, which are collected in books, and may be supposed to be true or false.” The same may be said of other religions: if one is true, all are true; if one is accepted, all must be accepted. Therefore, miracles are not a proof. For if they are proofs for those who are present, they fail as proofs to those who are absent.

“But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ.

“The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear. If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life—that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: “Let the dead bury their dead;” for “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”[1]http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-22.html#fn1#fn1

“Observe: those who in appearance were physically alive, Christ considered dead; for life is the eternal life, and existence is the real existence. Wherever in the Holy Books they speak of raising the dead, the meaning is that the dead were blessed by eternal life; where it is said that the blind received sight, the signification is that he obtained the true perception; where it is said a deaf man received hearing, the meaning is that he acquired spiritual and heavenly hearing. This is ascertained from the text of the Gospel where Christ said: “These are like those of whom Isaiah said, They have eyes and see not, they have ears and hear not; and I healed them.”[2]

“The meaning is not that the Manifestations are unable to perform miracles, for They have all power. But for Them inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things. Consequently, whenever it is recorded in the Holy Books that such a one was blind and recovered his sight, the meaning is that he was inwardly blind, and that he obtained spiritual vision, or that he was ignorant and became wise, or that he was negligent and became heedful, or that he was worldly and became heavenly.

“As this inner sight, hearing, life and healing are eternal, they are of importance. What, comparatively, is the importance, the value and the worth of this animal life with its powers? In a few days it will cease like fleeting thoughts. For example, if one relights an extinguished lamp, it will again become extinguished; but the light of the sun is always luminous. This is of importance. “

[1] Matthew 8:22; John 3:6.

[2] Cf. Matthew 13:14 and John 12:40-41.

--from Some Answered Questions
Best! :)

Bruce
 
R

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
Jeremy Mason said:
I like it. I've seen that movie What the Bleep Do We Know and wondered if miracles somehow involve quantum mechanics. Jesus said we all have the power to manifest our own miracles. I don't what to suggest that God isn't apart of the process, I'm just curious if this is how God does it.
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It's a perversion, perhaps, of something I god from A Course in Miracles.

I have the What the Bleep movies and I find them both interesting and informative. They way QM is presented is quite controversial, but nothing is inconsistent with it notwithstanding the protests of one of the participants.

The interesting thing about QM is that you get an incredible variety of interpretations of something scientists agree on. Does the "Mechanism demand a mysticism," as one physicist put it? (There is a book by that title.) Does "anything go," as another wrote in his book? Is the universe more "like a great thought than a great machine," as yet another put it? Skeptics like to say QM applies only at the micro, but research is beginning to show that's not the case (as below, so above).

It is funny to see what lengths some scientists will go to find excuses for dismissing any role consciousness might have in the collapse of wave function. A variety of multiple universe theories have cropped up specifically designed to give skeptics an alternative, a metaphysics, as it were, to skirt any mystical and metaphysical implications.
 
Heneni

Heneni

Miss Independent
Rolling_Stone said:
I have a really, really strange definition of a miracle: a miracle is a shift in consciousness that recreates reality along the lines of a higher continuum. Take from that whatever you will.
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I'll take it! It means that every time there is a shift there is a miracle. And shifts can happen more than once to one person. :)
 
Jeremy Mason

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
I find the placebo effect very interesting. Take this as an example:

Matthew 9:20-22 (NIV)

20Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak. 21She said to herself, "If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed."
22Jesus turned and saw her. "Take heart, daughter," he said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was healed from that moment.
 
Charity

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
I believe that miracles happen every day both to believers and non-believers. Believers recognize it for what it is, a miracle. Non-believers know that something happened and and it was either luck, or chance........:D
 
BucephalusBB

BucephalusBB

ABACABB
Charity said:
I believe that miracles happen every day both to believers and non-believers. Believers recognize it for what it is, a miracle. Non-believers know that something happened and and it was either luck, or chance........:D
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So neither can see the difference?
 
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