Christian - Perfection and free will. Both possible?

The Christian belief is that God is all powerful. He could create a perfect world should he desire. However, it clearly is not (need I explain?). A common argument for why God didn't create a perfect world is that if it were indeed perfect we would not have free will. I wonder, though, isn't that limiting God's capabilities? Would it be possible for God to create a world that is perfect and in which humans have free will? Why or why not? And if so, why didn't he?

groovydancer88 said:

The Christian belief is that God is all powerful. He could create a perfect world should he desire. However, it clearly is not (need I explain?). A common argument for why God didn't create a perfect world is that if it were indeed perfect we would not have free will. I wonder, though, isn't that limiting God's capabilities? Would it be possible for God to create a world that is perfect and in which humans have free will? Why or why not? And if so, why didn't he?

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Heaven, where God lives IS PERFECT. Yet though sin was found in heaven[Satan and his angels all lived in heaven where they sinned--all had free will--yet sinned and ]HEAVEN STILL IS PERFECT.

The earth and Adam and Eve were made perfect! Adam and Eve, like satan and his angels sinned while living in their PERFECT ABODE!

The difference is: God chose to curse the earth and allow the effects of sin to be seen by those who condone sin[satan and his angels].
Thank God He did not do the same for Heaven! OR now His entire universe would have been overrun by sin and satan!

A "perfect earth" and "free will" are not what salvation from sin is about!
Neither is a "perfect heaven" and "free will"!

But the effects of sin should make each and every human to want to not identify with sin or the "author of sin". The effects of sin should make each and every human to hate sin just as God hates sin!


precept

God DID create a perfect world- he said it was good. However, the fall and sin affected it. God tells us that all of creation is groaning. It will only be perfect again when a NEW heaven (space) and a NEW earth are created.

groovydancer88 said:

The Christian belief is that God is all powerful. He could create a perfect world should he desire. However, it clearly is not (need I explain?). A common argument for why God didn't create a perfect world is that if it were indeed perfect we would not have free will. I wonder, though, isn't that limiting God's capabilities? Would it be possible for God to create a world that is perfect and in which humans have free will? Why or why not? And if so, why didn't he?

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Well, by definition, free will is the right to choose. Because we have free will, we can choose either right or wrong, good or evil, virtue or vice. So is it possible to have both free will and a perfect world? I suppose that if everyone chose to do right, to be good and virtuous, and no one ever chose to do wrong or to be evil or wicked, this would be theoretically possible. On the other hand, maybe the world really is a perfect place for God to be able to test us. We couldn't very well progress without opposition.

I was having a conversation with my husband on a related topic awhile back. He said, “You know God put us in the most perfect world possible to teach us to become Christ-like.” My first thought was, “What? That’s crazy? He put us in a world where there is wickedness and hatred everywhere! How on earth can you say that this world is a perfect place for us to become Christ-like?”

And then he pointed out to me that if nobody ever cheated me, if nobody ever picked on one of my kids, if nobody ever said something malicious to me or snubbed me or took advantage of me – how Christ-like would I be? Well, I'd have no reason to forgive, no reason to be patient, no reason to exhibit self-control or to restraint of any kind. We live in a world where we are tested every single day, and where we have the opportunity to grow and progress, which is probably exactly what God intended.

Did Christ live in a perfect world? ....hmmm. Maybe we wouldn't know heaven if we
didn't see sin/glimpses of sin in the world. What would we have to turn from? Why would we want anything else? We have a taste of both here and we hope for Heaven. We know what we
'deserve', we know the world is upside down. We long, lament for a 'fix', our heavenly future
with Christ.....seems dreamy....how would we know evil from good? (like how we truly appreciate a sunny day after a week a rain, or a winter of leaflessness?

groovydancer88 said:

The Christian belief is that God is all powerful. He could create a perfect world should he desire. However, it clearly is not (need I explain?). A common argument for why God didn't create a perfect world is that if it were indeed perfect we would not have free will. I wonder, though, isn't that limiting God's capabilities? Would it be possible for God to create a world that is perfect and in which humans have free will? Why or why not? And if so, why didn't he?

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(Deut.29:29) Some things we just do not know. God did not create a perfect world that is the reality. Now we must deal with it our way or Gods way. Which way do you think is going to please our Lord? -in love Baerly

Would it be possible for God to create a world that is perfect and in which humans have free will? Why or why not? And if so, why didn't he?

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He is going to do just that. One day, this fleshly body will be changed, as I Corinthians says:

15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians)

The Bible says we will be changed, be incorrupt, that is sinless. Sin will have no more power over us. People mistake free will as being able to sin, and it is true to an extent. When one sins, they do excercise free will, but when they sin, they become a slave to sin, not free at all. But when we are changed, sin will lose its power over us, we will have free will, but we will not be brought under the power of sin, will not even desire or be capable of sinning. We will be free from sin once and for all. God will create a new heavens and earth and will dwell with us and He will be our God and we shall be His people, and it will be perfect and we will have free will, but our will will be His will, for sin and death and Satan and all that is bad will no longer have any place with us, we will be made glorified, incorruptible, immortal, and will know sin for what it is and it will no longer influence us. With Christ is liberty, we will be free, and one thing we will be free from is sin.

precept said:

...hate sin just as God hates sin!

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God hates?

groovydancer88 said:

The Christian belief is that God is all powerful. He could create a perfect world should he desire. However, it clearly is not (need I explain?).

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Yes. Why is it not perfect? It's a perfect place to test us, to allow us to grow. You cannot say a car is not perfect because it doesn't taste as sweet as a cake. The earth's purpose is specific - provide a place to test. It fulfills that purpose perfectly, and therefore it is perfect.

EDIT:

Katzpur said:

I was having a conversation with my husband on a related topic awhile back. He said, “You know God put us in the most perfect world possible to teach us to become Christ-like.” My first thought was, “What? That’s crazy? He put us in a world where there is wickedness and hatred everywhere! How on earth can you say that this world is a perfect place for us to become Christ-like?”

And then he pointed out to me that if nobody ever cheated me, if nobody ever picked on one of my kids, if nobody ever said something malicious to me or snubbed me or took advantage of me – how Christ-like would I be? Well, I'd have no reason to forgive, no reason to be patient, no reason to exhibit self-control or to restraint of any kind. We live in a world where we are tested every single day, and where we have the opportunity to grow and progress, which is probably exactly what God intended.

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I see this was already mentioned.

Katzpur said:

Well, by definition, free will is the right to choose. Because we have free will, we can choose either right or wrong, good or evil, virtue or vice. So is it possible to have both free will and a perfect world? I suppose that if everyone chose to do right, to be good and virtuous, and no one ever chose to do wrong or to be evil or wicked, this would be theoretically possible. On the other hand, maybe the world really is a perfect place for God to be able to test us. We couldn't very well progress without opposition.

I was having a conversation with my husband on a related topic awhile back. He said, “You know God put us in the most perfect world possible to teach us to become Christ-like.” My first thought was, “What? That’s crazy? He put us in a world where there is wickedness and hatred everywhere! How on earth can you say that this world is a perfect place for us to become Christ-like?”

And then he pointed out to me that if nobody ever cheated me, if nobody ever picked on one of my kids, if nobody ever said something malicious to me or snubbed me or took advantage of me – how Christ-like would I be? Well, I'd have no reason to forgive, no reason to be patient, no reason to exhibit self-control or to restraint of any kind. We live in a world where we are tested every single day, and where we have the opportunity to grow and progress, which is probably exactly what God intended.

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I used to think exactly along those lines. Here is where the problem arises. Let's take it one step at a time. Let me start by asking a question.

Was Adam and Eve "Christ-Like" before the Fall? If so, why was the Fall necessary to become "Christ-Like"?

We might have the ability to choose, but true freedom of choice would require all knowledge. Most choices we make that are poor are, more often than not, based on ignorance.

So this idea of perfection really breaks down because we don't have a consistant explanation of why anyone would actually choose suffering in a perfect world.

And why would we want choice when we are so powerless to carry out our choices?

There is a deep illusion going on.