Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Gotcha. Thank you.
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Christians: I have a question about Jesus' burial.
- Thread starter Harmonious
- Start date
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Logical, yes. In keeping with tradition, no.
But I understand now.
Apology accepted.
I've gotten that a lot, today. It must be weird, or something, to have someone just ask an honest to goodness question without having the validity of the text questioned.
Thanks for your answers.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
I want to thank everyone who participated in this thread. I asked a question, and I got an answer, and a few interesting perspectives along the way.
Thank you and God bless you.
Thank you and God bless you.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I speculated on this in other threads but was brushed off. I pointed out that the particular herbs and spices have healing properties and was not the custom of the jews to use them in burial nor were women...nor are women permitted to perform the burial rites. Women do the rites for women and men for men. I also pointed out that the massive amount of "Aloe" amd myrrh were used in a triage aspect by Joseph. Additionally the similarities of Jona and Yeshua would be different in that Jona was alive while in the belly of the fish and the traditional belief is that Yeshua was dead in the tomb. I think the opposite. I think that the comparison to Jona meant that Yeshua would certaily be alive...Jona begged his god to spare him from death as did Yeshua.....and it appears that the bible in full of God's faithful servants being saved by him as they have prayed and asked to be saved.....IMO.....
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Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Additionally I have not seen a case where women were permitted to rub the body of a dead man. My research says women perform the rites on women and men perform the rites on men. Their presence at the tomb for that purpose would seem out of place. But if they were there for a live body and were acting in the capacity of nurses then it would seem ok....especially given the amount of "Aloe" and myrrh that was placed in the tomb.
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Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Rightly so. If the women had intended to find a living Jesus at the tomb to nurse back to full health, you cannot explain the women's surprise at their discovery of the living Jesus. Certainly it's hard to imagine why they would have worshipped him. Moreover, you can't explain how the early church came to regard Jesus as the lord of life and that he had been resurrected. There were words available to Christians to describe someone who had swooned but not died. "Resurrection" wasn't among them.
The similarity between Jona and Jesus was not that neither had actually been killed by their ordeal. Rather, Jesus used the story of Jona as a parable of his own situation. Jona was in "the belly of the fish" whereas Jesus would be in "the belly of the earth". This is a wonderfully poetic way to speak of death. You may wish to reverse this, but the only justification seems to be that a traditional reason doesn't suit you.
Lastly, the bible certainly has stories of God saving those who pray to him. However, it is also CHOCK FULL of stories of faithful people of God -- even prophets, although one need not be a prophet to have God's ear or be counted as faithful -- praying that God would save them from their predicaments but God not doing so. So even Jesus' status as a prophet does not mean that God would not permit Jesus to go through death. You see, the bible deals with reality the way it is, not the way we want it to be.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Interesting......Again, their presence there to annoint him is out of place with jewish customs. So far this biblical passage is the only place I have seen of jewish women doing this. This is why when jews tend to read this passage they want to know why these women were there, why the tomb of the recently buried would be opened again etc. I touched on these points as well in those previous threads. The actions of the women are out of place when it come to burial customs. Women perform the rites on women and men for the men. Women certainly acted as nurses to heal the sick, be they children, women or men. I would expect them to do what they were there to do for a living body and not a dead one.
Well we're going by what is written in the bible. There were other writings to suggest he didn't die and a lot of people in that day and time believed he didn't. For me.....I'm only saying that there appears to be reason he didn't die and the women were there for a live body
All I'm saying is that I see a different interpretation. I'm not saying you're wrong...I'm saying I see it different....that's all...
I like your emphasis on "CHOCK FULL"......I see it as both ways.....CHOCK FULL of God saving and CHOCK FULL of him not.....
The reality is...mine was just an interpretation. It doesn't bother me if that is how you see it or if that is the general consensus.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
GRANTED: The texts we have leave us with a puzzle about why the women went to the tomb.
DP is asking us to believe the following. The women were carrying certain spices to nurse a desperately wounded but perhaps not-beyond-saving victim of crucifixion. The victim was laid in a tomb, not because he was dead, but because the tomb was convenient for other reasons (cool, safe from interruption, etc.).
Problems:
(1) Why would they have expected Jesus to be alive after three days of neglect? Remember, according to this hypothesis, it's agreed that Jesus was crucified. We have no records of anyone else surviving a full crucifixion. So if he did survive, he would have been in really bad shape. Recall also that he was flogged with a flagellum -- an instrument of cords with pieces of broken glass and nails attached. He was struck over 39 times. Each strike would have drawn blood, and by the end of the ordeal, he would have been just about hamburger. Indeed, most people condemned to crucifixion died BEFORE they were hung on their crosses. So, to believe this hypothesis, we have to believe that, after witnessing their beloved prophet abused this way, and having gotten him off the cross before he had died, Jesus' "friends" ferreted him away to some tomb and left him there without food, water, or provision for three days or so. Then, they went to the gravesite expecting to find him well enough to be further nursed toward health.
Jesus didn't need to be left alone in a tomb for a few days of rest. He needed constant care, food, water, and other attentions. DP is asking us to believe that Jesus was abandoned for three days -- after a crucifixion of all things -- and then his friends showed up later expecting to find him alive. I just can't imagine that level of stupidity. At least, not in women.
(2) If they expected to find him alive, and they DID find him alive, and if Jesus survived, how did the community come to see him as "resurrected"? That word simply doesn't fit the situation, even if you regard his survival as miraculous. In other words, this account doesn't explain how the early Christian community, with its belief about Jesus having died and rose again, even got started. It certainly doesn't explain the high Christology of the New Testament, which certainly regards Jesus as the Lord of life.
(3) If this is what happened, where did the appearance stories come from, and how did they become associated with the story of the empty tomb? If Jesus survived the crucifixion and was nursed back to health successfully, the post-resurrection stories are completely out of place. (I mean, they're weird anyway, but this just adds a whole new level of weirdness.) If Jesus had been nursed to health, why would people be filled with wonder when they (finally) recognized him? Why would they have worshipped him? Why would they have been surprised at seeing him?
These are insurmountable problems for this "interpretation". Serious historical theorizing (as opposed to armchair theorizing) cannot take it seriously for an instant. When it comes to the discovery of the empty tomb, we are at foundational, bedrock history. To seriously doubt it is to render the emergence of Christianity as entirely inexplicable. Not even the rantings of Paul would have inspired Christianity if Jesus had survived the crucifixion and lived to tell the tale. Nor would he have inspired anything if Jesus had survived the crucifixion but subsequently (in a few months, say) died. Such a man could never be confused with the Lord of Life!
This isn't a matter of "well, you have your interpretation and I have mine" as though the competing interpretations are equally plausible and you can take them or leave them as you please, almost at random. What DP is proposing is completely nonsensical. Rather than accounting for the evidence, it cheerfully shunts it aside. At least the proposal that the women found an empty tomb and were surprised by that fact accounts for the evidence we have about the origin of the early church without distorting any of it. That can't be said of DP's proposal.
DP is asking us to believe the following. The women were carrying certain spices to nurse a desperately wounded but perhaps not-beyond-saving victim of crucifixion. The victim was laid in a tomb, not because he was dead, but because the tomb was convenient for other reasons (cool, safe from interruption, etc.).
Problems:
(1) Why would they have expected Jesus to be alive after three days of neglect? Remember, according to this hypothesis, it's agreed that Jesus was crucified. We have no records of anyone else surviving a full crucifixion. So if he did survive, he would have been in really bad shape. Recall also that he was flogged with a flagellum -- an instrument of cords with pieces of broken glass and nails attached. He was struck over 39 times. Each strike would have drawn blood, and by the end of the ordeal, he would have been just about hamburger. Indeed, most people condemned to crucifixion died BEFORE they were hung on their crosses. So, to believe this hypothesis, we have to believe that, after witnessing their beloved prophet abused this way, and having gotten him off the cross before he had died, Jesus' "friends" ferreted him away to some tomb and left him there without food, water, or provision for three days or so. Then, they went to the gravesite expecting to find him well enough to be further nursed toward health.
Jesus didn't need to be left alone in a tomb for a few days of rest. He needed constant care, food, water, and other attentions. DP is asking us to believe that Jesus was abandoned for three days -- after a crucifixion of all things -- and then his friends showed up later expecting to find him alive. I just can't imagine that level of stupidity. At least, not in women.
(2) If they expected to find him alive, and they DID find him alive, and if Jesus survived, how did the community come to see him as "resurrected"? That word simply doesn't fit the situation, even if you regard his survival as miraculous. In other words, this account doesn't explain how the early Christian community, with its belief about Jesus having died and rose again, even got started. It certainly doesn't explain the high Christology of the New Testament, which certainly regards Jesus as the Lord of life.
(3) If this is what happened, where did the appearance stories come from, and how did they become associated with the story of the empty tomb? If Jesus survived the crucifixion and was nursed back to health successfully, the post-resurrection stories are completely out of place. (I mean, they're weird anyway, but this just adds a whole new level of weirdness.) If Jesus had been nursed to health, why would people be filled with wonder when they (finally) recognized him? Why would they have worshipped him? Why would they have been surprised at seeing him?
These are insurmountable problems for this "interpretation". Serious historical theorizing (as opposed to armchair theorizing) cannot take it seriously for an instant. When it comes to the discovery of the empty tomb, we are at foundational, bedrock history. To seriously doubt it is to render the emergence of Christianity as entirely inexplicable. Not even the rantings of Paul would have inspired Christianity if Jesus had survived the crucifixion and lived to tell the tale. Nor would he have inspired anything if Jesus had survived the crucifixion but subsequently (in a few months, say) died. Such a man could never be confused with the Lord of Life!
This isn't a matter of "well, you have your interpretation and I have mine" as though the competing interpretations are equally plausible and you can take them or leave them as you please, almost at random. What DP is proposing is completely nonsensical. Rather than accounting for the evidence, it cheerfully shunts it aside. At least the proposal that the women found an empty tomb and were surprised by that fact accounts for the evidence we have about the origin of the early church without distorting any of it. That can't be said of DP's proposal.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Indeed....
Well...I certainly didn't "ask" anyone to believe....People will believe what they want. When it comes to your scripture it is highly speculative and open to numerous interpretations.
Well you make the assumption that he was alone in the tomb. So far, that I know of, there is no information to suggest he was alone. In a couple different accounts by the writers there was some one outside the tomb when one of the women came or there was some one in the tomb when the woman or women came. Also.....when the body was placed in the tomb with the 75 to 100 pounds of "Aloe" and myrrh the women never entered the tomb. So...although they were eyewitnesses to the body entering the tomb...they themselves never entered the tomb. So as one can assume he was there alone...I can assume he wasn't
Yes. It is known that this is the general consensus. Crucifixion doesn't mean death. It's a method of torturing some one until he dies. Remember, Pilate was amazed to receive word that Yeshua was supposedly dead already. It has been noted time and time that crucifixion could last a couple days until the subject was deceased.
Other than what was reported by Josephus. I think two of his friends were crucified...one died and one survived. I'm not terribly familiar with the whole story but it is something I've heard from time to time.
That could also be another reason he was given something to drink on the sponge to knock him out and the reason Joseph wanted so quickly to remove him.
Well...I totally agree with you here....but even so...I'm quite sure Pilate was aware of the centurion's methods of punishment as they probably perfomed them on more people other than Yeshua and yet he, Pilate, was amazed at hearing he died so quickly. There must have been times where subjects would linger even after a torturous beating.
Most...but not all.
What I'm saying is that the assumption is that he was alone with none of these things. Remember....The tomb was purchased by Joseph and prepared long before Yeshua was supposedly crucified. Joseph ("Of Aramathea") bought this tomb and I think it says carved out of rock.....I've often wondered why a man who didn't seem to live there would buy and build a family tomb. For what purpose? Most families that I know of back then built tombs in the cities where they lived. Additionally, from what I understand about jewish burials, is that once the body is washed with water it is wrapped, placed in the tomb then the tomb is sealed. Large family tombs are reopened only to bury other family members.....so revisting the tomb to disturb that which has already been dressed, buried and sealed it out of place. Since women are not permitted to perform the burial rites on men one must wonder why they were there to annoint a dead stinking and rotting corpse.....additionally...one ask..."who will role back the stole for us"........Why would they expect anyone to do this? This was not their custom to reopen tombs.....
No...I'm suggesting that he might not have been alone in the tomb and it is possible that provisions were place in by, Joseph and maybe others, were already present in the tomb along with the 75 to 100 pounds of "Aloe" and myrrh and the presence of the womem suggest they were there to further his recovery or there to relieve the previous shift......This may be why they asked "who will roll back the stone for us"......This may be why they either bought and/or made additional spices seeing as though what was already placed in the tomb might have been used up.....
Most likely rumors....especially if you take into account the deciples who weren't at the crucifixion.....but assumed he was crucified. This was most likely told to them he was.....So the story could have come out of rumors. Some saw him on the cross and was taken down by Joseph never to be seen again. Notice none of these people were able to examine the body to conclusivly say he was dead.....Then POOF...Yeshua is alive and hungry for food. I'm not sure why a ressurected being would need food...but that's just me.....I mean..if you can conquer death surly you can conquer hunger....
Well not all were in agreement he did die. Some wrote that he didn't. So there wasn't some unanimous belief that he did die.
And yet you wrote a lenghty rebuttal to do what....to dismiss a theory.
But there you have it....I proposed nothing. I only theorized. I never said it was correct or one should believe what I say....I only said that it is reasonable to assume he didn't die....Now it is obvious you don't agree with the reasons......but...really....It's ok.........
Yid613
Member
The whole story is told with a Roman flavor, why not the burial. Did Romans anoint the bodies of the dead?
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
No, to refute it. There's a difference. I've shown your theory leaves more questions unanswered than raised. I've shown that the standard interpretation accounts for the evidence more completely than does yours, even allowing for puzzles about the women's intentions. In other words, I've dealt with the evidence, including the evidence of the rise of a Christian movement whose central tenet included the actual death of Jesus. If Jesus survived the crucifixion through long-term gentle nursing, and his people knew of this (as would be necessary according to your theory), it becomes impossible to understand how belief in his death and resurrection could have taken hold. Remember, these are JEWS we're talking about. Nothing in Jewish expectation would have led them to believe that a single person would have been raised from the dead in the middle of history as opposed to all persons (or all righteous persons) at the end of history. A belief in Jesus' resurrection would have been impossible unless they had seen him really dead and buried and had encountered him alive after the fact. If they all knew he had been nursed back to health but not died, belief in death and resurrection would simply not have happened. Period.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Not on his own anyway. The Tanach records God using the prophets Elijah and Elisha each to resurrect someone.
As a Jew, I assert that the resurrection of Jesus didn't happen. That doesn't mean a story can't be written to say whatever the author wants.
Considering my views on Christianity, I assert that people can and do have a belief in something that didn't happen.
Heneni
Miss Independent
Dirty pengioun said:
No...I'm suggesting that he might not have been alone in the tomb and it is possible that provisions were place in by, Joseph and maybe others, were already present in the tomb along with the 75 to 100 pounds of "Aloe" and myrrh and the presence of the womem suggest they were there to further his recovery or there to relieve the previous shift......This may be why they asked "who will roll back the stone for us"......This may be why they either bought and/or made additional spices seeing as though what was already placed in the tomb might have been used up.....
I say:
75 to a 100 pounds of aloe and myrrh used up in three days? And that is why the women came with more?.....
The grave was guarded. You think the guards wouldnt notice if someone went in but didnt come out before they sealed the tomb? Whoever was hiding in the tomb would have suffered from carbondioxide poisioning if left there for a long period, not to mention dehydration from a lack of water and food. The stone infront of the cave wasnt easy to remove, and if it was moved, it must have taken many people, or at least some gadget to get it done...all while the guards are doing what?
No...I'm suggesting that he might not have been alone in the tomb and it is possible that provisions were place in by, Joseph and maybe others, were already present in the tomb along with the 75 to 100 pounds of "Aloe" and myrrh and the presence of the womem suggest they were there to further his recovery or there to relieve the previous shift......This may be why they asked "who will roll back the stone for us"......This may be why they either bought and/or made additional spices seeing as though what was already placed in the tomb might have been used up.....
I say:
75 to a 100 pounds of aloe and myrrh used up in three days? And that is why the women came with more?.....
The grave was guarded. You think the guards wouldnt notice if someone went in but didnt come out before they sealed the tomb? Whoever was hiding in the tomb would have suffered from carbondioxide poisioning if left there for a long period, not to mention dehydration from a lack of water and food. The stone infront of the cave wasnt easy to remove, and if it was moved, it must have taken many people, or at least some gadget to get it done...all while the guards are doing what?
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
It wasn't until the "next" day Pilate allowed a termple guard to seal and stay watch at the tomb site. Comings and going could have been done prior to this. There could have been men inside the tomb along wiith Joseph as he dressed and wrapped the body.
Since we don't know what the tomb looked like we have no way of knowing its actual configuration. There could have been holes allowing air to enter the tomb. No information is available about the complete design of the temple. Food and water could have been placed in the tomb along with the 75 to 100 pounds of "Aloe" and myrh. This staggering amount of aloe and myrrh was purchased before the crucifixion and placed in the tomb. It's as though Joseph was planning for the worst and storing these healing ointments for such an occasion. Also remember it's customary for only the mem to clean the dead bodies of men with water and wrap the body. Jews don't embalm so aloe and myrrh (being expensive)...would not have been used for that. Neither of these ingredients have any effect over rotting flesh and the smell that is produced...but these two together are a great estringent, helping to stop bleeding and heal woulds....This is why you can find Myrrh in tooth paste and we already know aloe is in a lot of healing products.
Also remember the women as they approached the tomb...they fully expected some one to open the tomb for them...It would appear the weight of the stone had no affect over the women showing up to continue in the healing process. They must have thought they would receive help in rolling back the stone (Mark 16:2-3). Notice...it it the writer of the book of Matthew who makes the story to seem bigger than the rest. The rest of them seem to mention nothing of the dead exiting their graves and walking through the city streets after the crucifixion and none of them other than Matthew mention guards at the tomb.
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Heneni
Miss Independent
Well, that could be wrong actually. He might have had a guard there the same day. Comings and goings would have been monitored. Not sure the dressing and wrapping happened inside the tomb.
Or there could have been no holes. Which would mean suffocation for anyone hiding in it. The tomb was carved out of rock. Rock has less ability to allow air into the tomb, compared to ground. You were the one that said that the tomb had a huge amount of aloe and myrrh. What was it doing there then? How do you know it was in there? Jews dont embalm. Your right, I think i heard that somewhere else as well. They did rub the body with ointments though. Myrrh used in toothpaste...hmmm..it has numbing qualities too. Wine mixed with myrrh was given to Jesus to drink as he hung on the cross. Or so one gospel writer tells us. Another writer tells us he didnt drink it. As far as myrrh helping bleeding to stop and to heal wounds...ok....but then jesus was pierced and so he must have lost a lot of blood. His wound must have been big enough to cause quite a substantial amount of blood loss. For Jesus to survive he would have needed a pint or two or three of blood. He already lost a lot of blood from the beatings he took. If he didnt die from the beatings or the piercing of his body by a spear, then he would have had little chance to survive without a blood transfusion.
Maybe the women wanted help to remove the stone because they jesus said he would rise again. Maybe the women thought he'd be trapped in the tomb unless someone helped him out. But clearly they did not know who was going to do the removing of the stone, because the jews wouldnt do it neither would the romans want to do it. If these women were involved in a consipiracy to nurse jesus back to health, they wouldnt have wondered who would remove the stone, it would have been carefully planned out.
Also why would there be so many pounds of aloe and myrrh in the tomb, and then the women return three days later with more!
Even if the guard was placed at the entrance a day later, and someone did manage to hide in the tomb, it would have taken more than three days for jesus to recover. And after three days, he was walking around.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Well we only have the writer of the book of Matthew to rely on fir this tidbit of info.
Matthew 27:61-66
27:61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.
27:62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
27:64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
27:65 Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can.
27:66 So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.
So it appears it was the next day.....doesn't appear to be the same day.
True...but there could have been......
I say it was there to help in the aid and recovery to Yeshua......and it's not that "I" say there was a huge anount....it's what their bible says.....
John 19:39 (RVKJV)
19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
John 19:39 (Weymouth New Testament)
Nicodemus too--he who at first had visited Jesus by night--came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, in weight about seventy or eighty pounds.
These are their words not mine......
Well I wasn't there. I'm only going by what is in their bible.
Do you have a source? Everywhere I've looked it says the procedure was to wash the body with water. Water was abundant and cheap...if not free. Some herbs etc were expensive and used in trading and/or gifts. A hundred pounds weight may have been very expensive.
Yep....like the way we use morphine today. Myrrh to numb and aloe to heal....IMO.
Well I guess it depends on your interpretation of pierced. But again...Like Matthew and the guard....the piercing event is only found in the book of John. May be it's true or another version of the story with additions......
You might be right....Again...that info is only found in the one gospel....The same one boasting dead bodies exiting their graves and roaming the city after the crucifixion...all the while the other gospels are silent on this extraordinary event.
Also why would there be so many pounds of aloe and myrrh in the tomb, and then the women return three days later with more!
Well you know my answer on that. If the process of burial had been performed by Joseph and Nicodemus then their visit would have been out of place for a couple reasons....One....the process was done, he was buried and that was that....Second...from my research...women are not permitted to perform the rites on men. Only men perform the rites on men. This would seem in order as Joseph and Nicodemus were there and the women are reported to have waited outside. Women perform the rites on women. I have reason to think that their visit was to further in the nursing process. Additionally,
Maybe the injuries sustained weren't as bad as believed by people in this day and time...Maybe that's he told Mary not to touch him as she motioned toward him
Heneni
Miss Independent
From the bible:
38Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate's permission, he came and took the body away. 39He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.(DOESNT SAY THAT THE MYRRH AND ALOE WAS TAKEN TO THE TOMB) D 40Taking Jesus' body, (from wherever it was kept after it was taken from the cross) the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, (the spices was placed on jesus and then he was wrapped up)in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs. 41(THEN THEY TOOK THE BODY TO THE TOMB)At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid. 42Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there. (JEWISH DAY OF PREPARATION SAME DAY AS CRUCIFIXION?)
About someone staying in the tomb:
57As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, (BODY WAS WRAPPED AND THEN....)60and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.
Looks like they went away.
You might be right that the guard/s were placed there the next day. It would mean that whoever was hiding in the tomb, wouldnt be able to get out or others in without the guards noticing, and jesus would hardly be nursed back to health in a day. The tomb was sealed immediately and the guard placed there(maybe the next day). Not enough time to nurse jesus back to health and make a gettaway before the guard was placed there. And then whoever was 'stuck' in the tomb, would have suffured from lack of oxygen. If the spices and all that aloe was placed in the tomb to combat bad smells then that is understandable if the stone wasnt much of a sealant. But if the aloe and myrrh was placed in the tomb to nurse jesus back to health, it seems like overkill to me.
I'm still of the opinion that in order for Jesus to have survived he would require a few pints of blood.
The myrrh and the aloe, was not placed in the tomb, as far as I interpret the scripture, WHY there was so much of it brought to Joseph, im not sure. Its too much to use on a body. If it was for the purpose of placing in the tomb, to combat bad smells, then i dont see a conspiracy but rather an attempt to make a dead body smell better for longer.
38Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate's permission, he came and took the body away. 39He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.(DOESNT SAY THAT THE MYRRH AND ALOE WAS TAKEN TO THE TOMB) D 40Taking Jesus' body, (from wherever it was kept after it was taken from the cross) the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, (the spices was placed on jesus and then he was wrapped up)in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs. 41(THEN THEY TOOK THE BODY TO THE TOMB)At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid. 42Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there. (JEWISH DAY OF PREPARATION SAME DAY AS CRUCIFIXION?)
About someone staying in the tomb:
57As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, (BODY WAS WRAPPED AND THEN....)60and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.
Looks like they went away.
You might be right that the guard/s were placed there the next day. It would mean that whoever was hiding in the tomb, wouldnt be able to get out or others in without the guards noticing, and jesus would hardly be nursed back to health in a day. The tomb was sealed immediately and the guard placed there(maybe the next day). Not enough time to nurse jesus back to health and make a gettaway before the guard was placed there. And then whoever was 'stuck' in the tomb, would have suffured from lack of oxygen. If the spices and all that aloe was placed in the tomb to combat bad smells then that is understandable if the stone wasnt much of a sealant. But if the aloe and myrrh was placed in the tomb to nurse jesus back to health, it seems like overkill to me.
I'm still of the opinion that in order for Jesus to have survived he would require a few pints of blood.
The myrrh and the aloe, was not placed in the tomb, as far as I interpret the scripture, WHY there was so much of it brought to Joseph, im not sure. Its too much to use on a body. If it was for the purpose of placing in the tomb, to combat bad smells, then i dont see a conspiracy but rather an attempt to make a dead body smell better for longer.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Yea...a friend informed me that he believed somewhere in the Talmud it states flowers and spices used in the funeral. He didn't say weather they were used when wrapping the body or just placed nearby though. I still contend that women, when it comes to men and burial rites, are not permitted perform the rites of dead men. As I go back and study each of the gospels it's clear that Matthew and John list addtional information that wasn't in the earliest of the gospels (Mark). Luke is silent on these events as well. Maybe he wasn't asking the right people when he wrote his book...seeing as though he got his information from those who said they were eyewitnesses.
I guess the puzzle is why Nicodemus brought with him 75 to 100 pounds of aloe and myrrh if he really didn't need that much....and why the women would come to a tomb they knew they couldn't open by themselves all the while bringing additional spices...they either made or purchased. Their presence, to me, would seem to be out of place to perform the function the bible says they were there trying to do. Since the tomb was sealed (supposedly) there would be no need for them to enter it...according to jewish custom. Additionally, the rate of decomp would have been horrific. The body tends to bloat. Some bodies when covered with liquids tend to appear slimy due to chemical reactions and decomp. The book of Mark ends without all of the seemingly embellishments....where as Matthew and John added info to spruce up the story......or trying to fill in some blanks.....
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Heneni
Miss Independent
If women were not allowed to perform burial rites on dead men, then they looked like complete idiots pitching up with the stuff. If jesus was alive and they wanted to perform other rites on him
, then that seems equally odd. The roman guard wasnt going to say...step on in, he's been waiting for you! Oh, and I'll remove the stone for you, pilate wont mind.The women came to the tomb, expecting it to be tampered with since the jews and the romans would both be eager to establish that jesus was indeed still in there after three days. Hence the women felt that jesus would need to be 'spiced' up again,
in the event that the jews or the romans disturbed the body, or removed any of the cloths from his body to check for wounds and stuff like that to identify the body as that of jesus...still dead...after three days.But when they got there, the tomb was already open, and jesus wasnt there, and that was a surprise to them. They were not surprised because jesus had managed to recover fully in three days, they were really surprised that the tomb was open. The fact that they wondered who would open the tomb for them, could be because they themselves wanted to check if jesus was still 'intact' and if he wasnt, to cover him up properly again and then surprised when they found it already open.
By the way...its at least nice to have some sort of discussion about this, without getting too uptight about it. Thats nice. Doesnt happen often.
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