Do we NEED guns?

I voted yes. I don't trust the government, and the arming of citizens can help protect liberty.

I feel this way even though I'd sooner get shot than shoot someone .

Dr. Nosophoros said:

I know you were talking top A.A. Robtex, but I defended myself with a shot gun in Oklahoma once while camping with OOO buck shell inserted. After I got out of the military, I travelled quite a bit on my motorcycle. A cutoff Savage-Stevens single shot shotgun broke down quite nicely into three pieces and stored well wrapped in a oiled towell and bunjee corded between the exahust pipes underneath my bike (only place cops didn't look!) I placed my site well away from others but eventually others camped. I had no problem until I heard an RV that was pulled up next to my camp, it was late-I heard them wrestling (I think they were drunk) and cursing each other inside the RV, there was a female and male voice which pleaded with him to not go out "there" I knew I was in trouble at that point. I grabbed my blanket and shrouded myself in it with the assembled shotgun, loaded and cocked and sat before my small campfire and waited, before long a male came out of the RV (with pistol in hand) it seemed to be a .357 mag SW due to the full moon. He camer closer slowly, in my mind I envisioned a "space" or circle of which if he entered he would die, he did not breach that circle. I slowly moved the barrel of the shotgun through the blanket and had the trigger about half pulled, when that barrel came through I have never seen someones eyes get as big as that and with gun limply at his side back peddled. He went back to the RV, and I heard nothing else but silence, I packed my gear (though it was night) and found another place to camp. Was I afraid? Hell yes! but its what you do with fear is what counts, let it parylize you or spur you on.

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DR N. real quick it is AE not AA. About your camping trip was the drunk looking for you or those he was interacting with? I get the idea he never knew you were there. Why did you wait. Should you have not just left much earlier? When they were first yelling? Maybe do the 911 thing if you found a payphone? A bunch of losers getting drunk and playing with guns presents a stronger arugement against gun owernership than for it. If I was where you were I think leaving would have been a much better option early on. You precieved the danger long before the idiot came out with the gun......I would have to ask why you waited to leave and what is up with the road warrior (mel gibson movie) image you got going there?

linwood said:

I dunno Rob.

I don`t own a gun but my house was broken into in the middle of the night 2 years ago.
I managed to subdue the guy physically but if he had had a gun I would either be dead or at the least seriously injured.
I`ve also been pepper sprayed on one occassion and it didn`t subdue me.
It only really pissed me off.

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But yet you didn't buy a gun why? P spray may have pissed you off but if they had fist cuffed with you immediatly afterwards I am confident that unless their fist cuffing skills were non existant it would have been a one way beating.

No*s said:

I voted yes. I don't trust the government, and the arming of citizens can help protect liberty.
I feel this way even though I'd sooner get shot than shoot someone .

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two quick notes

1) armed revolution in the US inititiated by the goverment during your lifetime....not gonna happen. Besides you already defected from the republic of texas traitor (kididng). Voting in a republic and being politically astute protects liberty. Armed revolution isn't justified here and now.

2) I don't believe you when you say you would rather be shot than shot someone else because you vote suggests otherwise. Saying that I bet if we put down our macho gun madnesss mentality for a few months we can all soon be enlightened to the reality there is no reason for going to war with our goverment.

But yet you didn't buy a gun why?

I`ve got three kids and an anger problem.

I shouldn`t own a gun.

P spray may have pissed you off but if they had fist cuffed with you immediatly afterwards I am confident that unless their fist cuffing skills were non existant it would have been a one way beating.

Granted I lost that altercation due to the blindness but I still managed to inflict quite a bit of damage before he realised I wasn`t just going to curl up in a fetal position.

I`m torn on this one Rob.
A gun is not "my thing" personally as truthfully I`ve never been in a situation my wits or fists couldn`t get me out of one way or another, barring those choices the fetal position isn`t all that bad when necessary.

However you must admit there have been times in history when great tragedies could have or were averted because one responsible person had a gun and knew how to use it.

I remeber Lubys cafeteria in Texas.
My first thought was Jesus this is Texas!
I can`t believe no one had a firearm!

I later read a story about a woman whose parents died in there while she was getting something out of her truck, when she heard the gunfire she immediately reached into her glovebox only to realise her husband had taken the pistol out a week before due to some new law or the fact that they lost their carry pemit (Can`t really remember).
If she had had that gun it wouldn`t have been nearly as horrible as it turned out.

Pros and cons.
The hard part as it always is is to determine whether the pros outweigh the cons.
I haven`t been able to make that determination as of yet.

robtex said:

two quick notes

1) armed revolution in the US inititiated by the goverment during your lifetime....not gonna happen. Besides you already defected from the republic of texas traitor (kididng). Voting in a republic and being politically astute protects liberty. Armed revolution isn't justified here and now.

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On this I wholly agree with you. The necessity of an armed revolution is a long ways away (a looooong ways), and voting is a check. If the situation were to arise it is also the failure of the people who let it happen.

Robtex said:

2) I don't believe you when you say you would rather be shot than shot someone else because you vote suggests otherwise. Saying that I bet if we put down our macho gun madnesss mentality for a few months we can all soon be enlightened to the reality there is no reason for going to war with our goverment.

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I don't see a need to rise up at the government and will speak against it. Our situation is nowhere near anything that could justify that. Guns aren't something I need to stop the government right now. They're another one of the checks and balances in our system, and I hope and doubt I will have to see them played out any time soon.

On the guns vote being at odds with my personal choice, well, I do that in a lot of areas. I vote that it is absolutely necessary to protect free speech, even if I would have to side with the likes of Penthouse's publisher. I, thus, have supported the freedom of speech of pornography, but I find it repulsive. I oppose war, but I realize the necessity of a standing army. By supporting that, I support another liberty and choice, but it, like porn, is one that I will not take. Heck, the only weapons I own are a shortsword, a Bowie knife, a small knife, and a cheap display katana . I don't have, nor am I getting at the moment, a gun.

Linwood is it a game of numbers. For those who don't know about a decade ago a shooter walked into a Luby's in Texas in Killeen and killed 24 people. The number of idiots who will kill one another over relationships which football team is the best in the country, religious and racial differneces this year will be in the 1000's.

Here is a great resource on that.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets

Two things when considering these stats and rampages:

1) The guy with the gun is an arguement for gun control
2) for every minnosota school shooting or killeen rampage 1000's more will be killed annually by friends and aquitances because of current gun avaliablty.

Let me put it to you another way. Say you work in an office with 500 people...a really big company. Lets face it there is no way you can know about everybody there....any day one of those guys can just lose it and come in firing....by your line of thought...maybe its a good idea for all the employees to pack iron just in case one of them flips out..(oh yeah and if they are going to do that get rid of the offices coffee pots...i would be really tempted to shoot some jerkoff from accounting who took the last cup and didn't restart the machine).

No*s said:

I don't see a need to rise up at the government and will speak against it. Our situation is nowhere near anything that could justify that. Guns aren't something I need to stop the government right now. They're another one of the checks and balances in our system, and I hope and doubt I will have to see them played out any time soon.

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lol checks and balances..here lets add a reality check to that.....bunch of average citizens with guns versus the US army.....hmmmmm...

Citizen gun ownership is not a check and balance.....If there was another civil war of the people versus the armed services I contend it would be a one way beating......

Having said that we have one of the most open govenements in the world......we are so far from needed an armed revolution it ain't even funny. We do need less apathy in the voting community that would be helpfull.......why so many more republicians than non-republicians think voting is important is beyond me......

robtex said:

lol checks and balances..here lets add a reality check to that.....bunch of average citizens with guns versus the US army.....hmmmmm...

Citizen gun ownership is not a check and balance.....If there was another civil war of the people versus the armed services I contend it would be a one way beating......

Having said that we have one of the most open govenements in the world......we are so far from needed an armed revolution it ain't even funny. We do need less apathy in the voting community that would be helpfull.......why so many more republicians than non-republicians think voting is important is beyond me......

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That's a strong argument, and frankly, I can't answer it .

We do at least both agree that a need is a long ways away and that getting people to care is the first step. Sadly, that's the biggest argument against guns (and you've made it). If the people let it happen, there isn't much hope of an armed rebellion.

NO* all I was trying to point out is that armed protection against the goverment is not in this point in time a valid reason. One, we are a voting society and that is much more effective in begetting change than violence. And second if that changed the USA has the most poweful armed services in the world and a bunch of citizens with guns is not a solution. Because of that I just dimiss the arguement of "we need guns to protect ourselves from the goverment"

robtex said:

AE, I don't have a blackbelt sorry if I presented the idea that i did. I have to ask why the high security. I live in Austin and I know it is a lot safer. I keep my doors unlocked during the day but locked at night. I don't have any guns and the knife collection I mentioned is in the library down the hall (ie not near me).

If I did live in a place I didn't feel safe in (assuming I moved there not knowing it wasn't safe) I would make plans to move. Long or short term. I don't understand while some people are on defcon 3 or defcon 4 much of the time. Seems so unhealthy as a lifesytle. The anxiety and all. I can't say I go through the day working contingecies for assult and I have confidence that even though you do the likelyhood of us both growing old and dying naturally despite our differences is approximatly equal.

Since we are on religious forums I want to throw your christianty into the mix. Christianity is a theims as opposed to deism which means on some level you likley accept the concept of pre-destinaiation..aka God's will. If this is so and your life is in Gods hands, figuratively speaking, do you really need a gun. I mean when the Christian God says its time to go isn't it just time ...no if's and or buts? and if it isn't in God's for you to join him in Heaven isn't that more powerful than any shotgun ever created or ever will be created?

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As a Christian it is my responsibility to be a good steward of myself. I live in an area that has home invasions. I am not anxious. I have a blackbelt because I enjoy martial arts - and I have never had to defend myself (I have had the rank for 5 years). I will simply shoot a home invader because I deem it the only responsible action. I trust in God to protect me, and He has provided a weapon for me to use. That gun can be His instrument by which He protects me.

I see the doctor when I am sick, though I trust God for my healing. I go to the grocery store but thank God for my food. I work but I trust God for my money. I study but I trust God for my understanding and wisdom.

jewscout said:

If the American military force wanted to come down on the American populace and form a police state of sorts most firearms civilians can purchase will not be a match against the war chest of the US miliatry. .

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Yes, there were many who felt that way during the revolutionary war as well. Farmers taking on the very organized English army. Right. And yet....

I agree with many others that I doubt it will happen in my lifetime, but I'm willing to help keep the possibility of self-protection for my descendants.

robtex said:

NO* all I was trying to point out is that armed protection against the goverment is not in this point in time a valid reason. One, we are a voting society and that is much more effective in begetting change than violence. And second if that changed the USA has the most poweful armed services in the world and a bunch of citizens with guns is not a solution. Because of that I just dimiss the arguement of "we need guns to protect ourselves from the goverment"

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I understand that. I don't believe it is valid for our society at present, but we can't simply eliminate and reinstate that. If it is not present at all points, then it becomes a moot point if ever needed. As you said, though, it would have a hard time standing up to the military (at this point, the people would get waxed).

We also agree that voting is of principle importance, because we are a voting people. Any use of armed force is a failure of the system and the people to act, and it would be a mark of shame.

I really don't think we disagree that much . I would not call for an armed revolution in our current society and would actively try to stop it.

What we need more than guns, are responsible people who know how to use them safely.

robtex said:

nice to meet so many closet armed (and unarmed) revolutionsist. That we need to fight our govement mentality is kinda extreme. Don't like it here than leave. You can't defect from the USA. You are free to go as you please. No armed revoluion neccessary.

Using the political system via voting and campaigning sounds like a much saner means to achieve goals than harboning delusions of armed conflict with US forces.

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spoken like a true marine
Would this be the same campaigning and voting system where you have to be a multimillionaire just to run, and then even if you win you still lose as in the case of G.W.Bush winning after losing the vote?

linwood said:

I dunno Rob.

I don`t own a gun but my house was broken into in the middle of the night 2 years ago.
I managed to subdue the guy physically but if he had had a gun I would either be dead or at the least seriously injured.

I`ve also been pepper sprayed on one occassion and it didn`t subdue me.
It only really pissed me off.

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i have heard that pepper spray does not work very well. actually i heard it is basically useless.

A sad, sad commentary on the question, IMHO.

I once purchased a gun for target shooting at the local range. It was an exilerating experience to see how good a shot I was. In retrospect, the feeling of power it gave to me was freightening! At one point in my ownership, I almost felt like, " Yeah, 'cmon just try to break into my apartment! This is mine and I dare you to try to take it, I'll' blow your@#!!@# brains out!"
In retrospect, I believe that when we come into posession of an instrument that is more powerful than we are, it will corrupt our thoughts, no matter how intelligent you think you are. It will allow us to inforce our ideas of what is or what should be, in a maliscious way. Guns give a false sense of superiority. Then again, if there were no guns, there would be sticks, rocks, crude knives,and boulders to name a few instruments of destruction. In the long run I guess there is no deterrent to man's inhumanity to man. Remember crucifiction, feeding christians to the lions, remember the holocost to the Jews, remember slavery and the bodies of blacks hanging from trees, etc, etc ad infinitum!

Think again, my beloved brothers and sisters of what you are truly capable of. Are you capable of murder, taking another life, pouring out the life blood of another human being who is alive at that very moment just like you? I used to think of actually pulling the trigger and shooting another being if they tried to transgress my supposed personal space. Could I actually do it? I mean, it wouldn't really be me feeling myself hurting the person. I would be at some distance, and the bullet would do the actual injury, right?,

I am sorry, my dears, but killing is wrong no matter what the circumstances in my belief, and I don't think I could really do it. We can justify killing for so many reasons, but in the end, IMHO, it is not the right thing to do. BTW, I no longer own a gun.

we need to disarm. Revelation 13:13
And he doeth great wonders so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
we chillin from heaven call this gunpower. That second beast no doubt being the Holy Roman Empire which exerciseth all the power of the first beast (the Roman Empire) which is to make war. If these things be so then gunpower devices and all their ilk are all the means by which to kill. We should be developing in wisdom to stop every violent act in the earth. The human race was made to excell in godliness. We can through the guidance and leadership of the Lord Jesus put down all violence and resistance to righteousness in the earth. The body of Christ can become one in mind and heart as we were in the day of pentecost. They had one mind and were in one accord and the Spirit fell on them. We need today to have one mind and be in one accord: we need to enlist the power that is in the kingdom of God on behalf of others in the world who have not yet met Jesus.
My life is proof that I believe in Jesus not because of anyone else who believes John4:42
I know that this is indeed the Christ the saviour of the World.

martha said:

I am sorry, my dears, but killing is wrong no matter what the circumstances in my belief, and I don't think I could really do it. We can justify killing for so many reasons, but in the end, IMHO, it is not the right thing to do. BTW, I no longer own a gun.

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The best advice I ever received was from a cop I dated in my 20's. He said if you're not sure you can pull the trigger, then don't own a gun because many times when a homeowner is killed by a burglar, they're killed with their own gun.

I'm just not sure I can pull the trigger even to defend myself....or at least I'm not sure enough that I would have a gun in my house. However, I know absolutely that if my husband or children were being threatened that I could pull the trigger. I'm not sure what that says about me.

i see both sides of the arguement where guns are concerned, but me myself i think it is good that we have the right to bear arms, any kind of arms. it keeps the government in check. i myself don't own one nor do i feel the need even though i live in the ghettos of detroit, i don't think it right for me or anyone else to tell the next guy that he/she cannot own a gun or use it if they are put into a situation to have to use one. and i also think that these new gun laws are slowly taking away our right to arms which if this does happen will be a real sad day in america.