I suppose James was insulting Jesus when he said "pray for one another"...
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Affiliating with Saints a Catholic thing to do???
- Thread starter SpiritualBeing
- Start date
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
I mean chapter and verse on a saint's ability to help us.
Yes, they're alive. But they don't have eternal life by virtue of being in Paradise. "Eternal life" doesn't mean "life in heaven". It rather refers to the quality of the life. Eternal life means life empowered by heaven. As a Christian, you have eternal life right now.
The point of embodiment is to emphasize the biblical picture according to which embodied persons can and do elist the prayers of other embodied persons. There are no examples of embodied persons enlisting the help of the dead. Indeed, the example you cite from Revelation makes my point. The elders offer their own prayers on their own initiative. They don't make those prayers because individuals have asked them to make them.
Fine, if you want to identify "heaven" with "Paradise" I have no argument, so long as "heaven" is not conceived of as anything other than the TEMPORARY RESTING PLACE for the dead. And I never said that there would be saints in heaven after the Second Coming. There will not be any saints "in heaven." Rather, God will renew the heavens and the earth, and make the two into one. There will be a renewed heaven and earth on which we will live fully embodied lives (that's the whole point of the resurrection, after all!).
I assume you're knowledgeable, so tell me.
That's not the same thing. One entreats a "saint" because one expects that that "saint" has some extra "clout" with a distant "god" who is more or less uninterested in the prayers of an ordinary schlep like me. When I pray with other Christians, joining my prayers with them, on the other hand, I take advantage of Christ's promise that where two or three are gathered in [Christ's] name, Christ is in their midst. In other words, I'm standing on a specific promise of Jesus. I don't see anywhere in scripture where that promise extends to dead people.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Okay, fair enough. Merely asking someone to pray with you isn't insulting or manipulative. But why ask a SAINT for anything? Is it perhaps because they've got a leg up on you, have more of the Master's ear? THAT'S what's insulting. Christ says that he embraces all who are his with open arms. To diminish that promise by trusting in a saint's extra "holiness points" is inherently a smack in the fact to God. God offers himself to all freely and equally. He doesn't play favorites. Praying to saints because they've got extra clout for some reason amounts to manipulation and divine politicking.
One definition of pray:
To make a fervent request or entreaty.
Dictionary.com
To make a fervent request or entreaty.
Dictionary.com
"The prayers of a righteous man availeth much." I want as many righteous people praying for me as possible
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
One has already been provided. For another, see Revelation 6:9-10.
So we have eternal life now, and we'll have eternal life once we get to heaven after the Second Coming, but we don't have eternal life "in between?" :areyoucra
What Biblical picture are you referring to? No Biblical picture of prayer necessitates a physical, earthly body.
Actually, in Rev 8, it makes it clear that they are offering to God the prayers of ALL the saints...not just themselves. Your case is even more tenuous when it is noted that angel mediates with prayers to God as well.
Scripture says that God will make a new heavens and a new earth, not that the two shall become one. Moreover, there is nothing to suggest in the creation of the new heavens that believers who had inhabited the old heaven will become more pure, holy, etc once they get to the new heaven. To be in the presence of God one must be spotless.
I just did.
Not at all. Acknowledging the effectiveness of the prayers of saints in heaven, due to their righteousness and purity since they are in heaven (James 5:16), does not mean that we find God uninterested in our own prayers.
Christ's promises to us do not end once we get to heaven. Quite to the contrary, I'd say Christ's promises become even more real and powerful to us once we enter his presence. If you think Christ's promises do not extend to saints in heaven, then your view of the afterlife must be bleak.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
One definition of pray:
To make a fervent request or entreaty.
Dictionary.com
"The prayers of a righteous man availeth much." I want as many righteous people praying for me as possible
Since when do we rely on dictionary.com to provide us with theological definitions?
But in any case, this falls well short of an authorization from within scripture to pray to saints. I'm still waiting for that one. Indeed, the passage in question is a spur to currently living saints to be more saintly and to pray more. It's not an invitation to beg the dead.
Scott1
Well-Known Member
There is not one..... not one that's even close to what your looking for IMO.
This teaching (while I don't believe it to be contrary to scripture) has its foundation in sacred Tradition.
You are the one who said:
I was showing that it need not be worship.
Did I say it was? I was responding to your rant about why one entreats a saint. "The prayers of a righteous man availeth much".
For what its worth, I don't personally ask the saints to pray for me, I come from a S. Baptist background and it still feels uncomfortable to me.
Also, I hope you can understand that Catholics, and a majority of Christians in general, are not Sola Scripturists.
Can you provide a scripture that tells us not to ask the saints in heaven to pray for us?
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
2 Macc. 15:12-16 the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
Your people have been doing it for a long time Scott. You guys need to start writing this stuff down otherwise I'm not going to believe it.
Oh wait...I forgot that Macc. isn't sacred scripture......scratch that.
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Just FYI, Jewish tradition does NOT support prayer for the dead. Ask any rabbi, he will tell you that these were collective prayers for the "children of Israel" and not specific prayers for those who died. Such a practice was very foreign to Hebrew thinking and cannot be supported in the Talmud or Mishnah.
Now, granted that is just one interpretation (but I don't support looking for "proof texts" anyway) but this practice is more about Tradition than Scripture (if at all), don't you agree?
SpiritualBeing
Active Member
It seems to me that I've started a bit of a debate. When I "pray" to Saint Christopher, I am asking him to carry my prayer onwards to God.
Even though I hate to admit it, I do not feel particularly "close" to God. I have been brought up with beliefs from both a Catholic and a Spiritualist, and with the belief that you can ask the angles/saints for help.
I see Saint Christopher as a Guardian Angel, an angel who watches over me from above, and I feel "closer" to him spiritually than to God.
:candle:
Even though I hate to admit it, I do not feel particularly "close" to God. I have been brought up with beliefs from both a Catholic and a Spiritualist, and with the belief that you can ask the angles/saints for help.
I see Saint Christopher as a Guardian Angel, an angel who watches over me from above, and I feel "closer" to him spiritually than to God.
:candle:
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
*shrug*...I was being partly fecetious...you know more about this then I do. I have it fresh in my mind that this is a point of contention even within Judaism. There are in fact communities that have intercessory. The only thing they argued about was whether you could do it when they died as well. Some say yes, others say no.
But I'll take your word on it...
Yes...it is mostly Tradition.
Scott1
Well-Known Member
It's kinda what we do here.....
Sorry to hear you don't feel "close" to God.... maybe a change in your prayer life is in order.... maybe read the section in the Catechism on prayer.
Just FYI, you do have a Guardian Angel you can pray with as well, but I know what you mean.
My relationship with my intercessor (SOG Fr. Patrick Peyton) is not totally based upon "carrying" my prayers to God... sometimes we just talk.... sometimes I ask him for guidance.... and I pray you develop your relationship with St. Christopher (or others) and it helps you grow closer to God.
Scott1
Well-Known Member
If I'm wrong, let me know.... I'm basing this mostly upon how the early church described the communion and intercession of the Saints and Angels in heaven. In my research, you don't find a single reference to 2 Macc (or any scriptural references) until after the reformation. Unlike almost every other doctrine/teaching (Eucharist/Papacy/Church/Christ etc.) the early fathers did not look for "proof texts" or scriptural support for this practice. Why? I'd love to know... but I'd have to guess it was soooooo accepted that they didn't need to research and support it.
Peace my friend,
Scott
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Scriptural......none that would suffice, no.
Church history? That's another story...
But yeah, Advent pretty much says what you say:
New Advent
In regard to the intercession of the dead for the living about which no mention is made in the most ancient books of the OT, . . . one has the familiar text of 2 Mc 15.11-16. If in the NT writings . . . nothing on the subject is explicitly mentioned, one still has in the practice of the early Church an abundant harvest of evidence that demonstrates faith and conviction in the intercessory power of those who had died in Christ. Such evidence . . . is seen in the many epitaphs, anaphorae, litanies, liturgical documents, acts of the martyrs, and in the frequent allusions encountered in Oriental, Greek, and Latin patristic literature.
Darkwater
Well-Known Member
Do yourself a favour & find out as much as you can about your line from living relatives,just get family stories from them,find out all you can from the living relatives while they are here.Usually they are very happy at you asking & a wee cup of tea helps you get more information about *yourself* than any book will ever tell you.....especially any *black sheep*(if any)...find out all you can buddy,when you know where you are coming from it helps you get where you are going too,helps you figure a lot of stuff.
Basically we are the same people,the same hopes & dreams,the same pitfalls,just in a different day.
Keep your GA close,sometimes they *rotate*.lulz.
All the best,
Andy
SpiritualBeing
Active Member
Thanks man, that's very deep.
I'm thinking about perhaps changing my religion, as I don't seem to fall into any particualr denomination in Christianity.
:candle:
I'm thinking about perhaps changing my religion, as I don't seem to fall into any particualr denomination in Christianity.
:candle:
Scott1
Well-Known Member
What are the possible choices?
SpiritualBeing
Active Member
Well, I don't quite know yet. I would like a religion that incorporates meditation, reflection and prayer in it. I like to keep calm, and keep myself clean and pure, in mind I mean.
I always wear a gemstone on a chain, so I would quite like a religion that could incorporate the use of gemstones as well.
I'm thinking about Buddhism, but I don't quite know what else there is.
:candle:
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Well, that would include the Catholic faith.....
Of particular interest to you may be Morning Star Zendo :
Robert Kennedy, S.J., Roshi, is a Jesuit priest and Zen teacher in the White Plum lineage. He studied with Yamada Roshi in Kamakura, Japan, with Maezumi Roshi in Los Angeles, and with Glassman Roshi in New York. Glassman Roshi installed Kennedy as sensei in 1991 and conferred Inka (his final seal of approval) in 1997, making him a roshi (master).
The gemstone thing, however, is foreign to me..... :sorry1: