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Affiliating with Saints a Catholic thing to do???

Scott1

Well-Known Member
There's an odd notion among many Protestants/non-Catholics that praying "to" saints is somehow a replacement for praying to God, or that Catholics/those who pray to the saints don't feel worthy or able to pray to God Himself. Just so you know, that is the farthest thing from the truth.
Amen my friend.... as long as the prayers bring you comfort and help your relationship with our Lord, I could care less if you pray to a saint - a tree - or your crazy Aunt Hilda!

Just PRAY!:yes:
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Amen my friend.... as long as the prayers bring you comfort and help your relationship with our Lord, I could care less if you pray to a saint - a tree - or your crazy Aunt Hilda!

Just PRAY!:yes:
So idolatry is fine and dandy so long as it comforts you?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
No informed catholic adores Mary or any saint as a god or goddess and if they do, they should know better. Catholics are accused for being excessive with it and Protestants treat Saints as lepers.

Years back I used to listen to a local christian radio show run by calvary chapel and I remember St. Paul was the center of many discussions and focus. Now, one could say that it was excessive and maybe borderline "worship" or too much honor paid to him or whatever, but I knew (and I'm sure most Christians know this as well) that they weren't doing that. Pigs will fly before you get a 10min. sermon on Mary in a Protestant church.

Point being, there is no point in accusing catholics of something we don't believe we should do.

As to why pray to them? Why not pray to them? I can use all the help I can get and if that means asking my brothers from another mother in heaven, I'll take it.

It's just a matter of being more sure that they (Saints) are closer to God then we are in this world.

It's kind of like not being sure if your dad is mad at you or not but you know your brother is in good terms with him. You think I'm not going to ask my brother to help me get closer to dad? You bet I am!
 

rojse

RF Addict
Hey all,

Today, in school, I was having a little chat with the chaplain, and I said to him,

"I usually pray to St. Christopher for the smaller things that I need, because I think that God needs a bit of a rest once in a while".

And he replied to me by saying that praying to a Saint, and affiliating yourself with a Saint, is a Catholic thing to do and that it was better not to do it, as I am not a Catholic.

At this remark, I snubbed him completely and walked away, but it stayed with me.

Is it true that it's only Catholics who can pray to Saints, or can a simple Christian like myself do so also?

:candle:

Patron Saints Index: Saint Christopher

What did you want Saint Christopher to help you with? Archery? Epilepsy? Pestilence? Lightning? Motorists?
 

Darkwater

Well-Known Member
I am of the view there are Saints,ie those people of vision & foresight which are recognised.

and Saints,nasty wee Rocats who buy there beatification by sucking up to Rome.

Scotland was ex-comminicated as a nation by Papal Bull of very early 14th Century & were only recently officially *communicated* again 2 years ago after I asked some friends when the Bull had been repealed or renounced or whatever.

I like our Lady of perpetual Succour,she is authentic as Hathor & as real as the Milky way on a universal scale.Hathor being head of the house of Taurus.

Everything else is cheap imitation until resonation can be acheived.

In great love.

Andy
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
No informed catholic adores Mary or any saint as a god or goddess and if they do, they should know better. Catholics are accused for being excessive with it and Protestants treat Saints as lepers.

Although a caricature of the actual situation, I know what you mean. Protestants could lighten up a bit, and the Mariolators don't represent mainstream American Roman Catholicism.

Years back I used to listen to a local christian radio show run by calvary chapel and I remember St. Paul was the center of many discussions and focus. Now, one could say that it was excessive and maybe borderline "worship" or too much honor paid to him or whatever, but I knew (and I'm sure most Christians know this as well) that they weren't doing that. Pigs will fly before you get a 10min. sermon on Mary in a Protestant church.

Point being, there is no point in accusing catholics of something we don't believe we should do.

I guess what I'm saying is that the practice of praying to the saints is exactly equivalent to ancestor worship. If it's wrong for the pagan to do that, why is it okay for us to pray to the saints?

As to why pray to them? Why not pray to them? I can use all the help I can get and if that means asking my brothers from another mother in heaven, I'll take it.

The Holy Spirit isn't enough?

It's just a matter of being more sure that they (Saints) are closer to God then we are in this world.

But scripture doesn't authorize this view. The NT calls all Christians saints. All saints have equal access to God, period, at least if we think Hebrews is right.

It's kind of like not being sure if your dad is mad at you or not but you know your brother is in good terms with him. You think I'm not going to ask my brother to help me get closer to dad? You bet I am!

If you're a Christian, God is not angry with you. You are as close to him as it is possible to be. You have a mediator, Jesus, who has already removed the veil separating you from all the resources of heaven. So even if your brother could intercede on your behalf, the father would say, "Y'know, I wish Victor would talk to me himself. Now why don't you (Victor's brother) spend some time with me...." In other words, praying to the saints (and the whole machinery involved in canonization) is a huge enterprise of missing the point and wasting time. Go straight to the source because the source loves you completely and can't possibly love you any more.
 

SpiritualBeing

Active Member
What did you want Saint Christopher to help you with? Archery? Epilepsy? Pestilence? Lightning? Motorists?

I used to be a Spiritualist before I fully accepted the Word of God. The one thing that I still believe from Spiritualism is that you may ask anyone who has passed over to the Light to help you, or act as a sort of postman of God, with any problems that you may have. Whether it be a motoring fault, or just a basic, simple acknowledgement of God's goodness.

E.g. My Great-Great-Great-Great-Great-Great Auntie Esmelda had passed over into Heaven, and I felt particularly close to her, then I may ask her to take my message to God.

Basically, what I'm saying is, I don't feel particularly "close" to God, and I was brought up by my Great Gran Georgie and my Gran Margaret with the legend of Saint Christopher, so I feel a lot closer to Saint Christopher than God.

I feel more comfortable asking Saint Chris to take my message to God rather than praying to Him directly.

:candle:
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
If you're a Christian, God is not angry with you. You are as close to him as it is possible to be. You have a mediator, Jesus, who has already removed the veil separating you from all the resources of heaven. So even if your brother could intercede on your behalf, the father would say, "Y'know, I wish Victor would talk to me himself. Now why don't you (Victor's brother) spend some time with me...." In other words, praying to the saints (and the whole machinery involved in canonization) is a huge enterprise of missing the point and wasting time. Go straight to the source because the source loves you completely and can't possibly love you any more.
Are you a father? It's ok if your not because I'm sure one is able to grasp the amount of joy it brings a father to see there kids working together. Even if I'm not really mad, it brings me immense amount of joy to see my kids working together with the same goal in mind (get closer to papa). Even if they are right by my side and are as close as they can be, it is a beautiful thing to have your kids work toward it.

I wouldn't 'puff up' and say "hey! why doesn't he come to me?". Especially if I know his goal in mind and that he has and would come to me in other situations.

Sometimes, people are embarrased or feel unworthy of going straight to papa. Whether the persons feelings are justified or simply manufactured by them, God seems to enjoy it immensely if you work through His family to get to Him; as any Father would.

As to God not being happy or whatever anthrophormisms one wishes to use, well that's a beefy topic and probably best left for another topic.
 

SpiritualBeing

Active Member
Well done Victor, well said.

I think that we've kind of started to stray from the main topic a bit though. It was originally supposed to answer whether praying to saints is a particualrly Catholic thing to do. Now we seem to be discussing whther it's the right thing to do.

:candle:
 

Darkwater

Well-Known Member
Kids are great,they are truly here to help us & bring us strength.By nature they are takers,you have to give them all the love & support in the world,all you can anyway.The meaning of the word *kid* is *notorious*.......They areconceived in love,made manifest in love,nurtured in love(placenta),live in love,,,,,,everything they (& we) do is for love & dependent upon the company we keep,our lifestyle decisions or our enviroment.

Meet your whole line,guardian angels right through time to find out where you are coming from.If they/you don't know where you are coming from,it dosen't matter where you are going too so guilt trips are inherent.

There is no help,only self help so take it where you can find it when you are seeking within.

Being from Greenock are you a seafaring man?or from that line?
 
\

Tell me then, what is the point of praying "to" a saint (if that's how you characterize it) if not to obtain some spiritual benefit?
Of course it's to obtain spiritual benefit. That doesn't mean it's replacing God...ultimately a saint's ability to help us is by God's grace given to that saint.

And how isn't it replacing Jesus when the gospel promises those benefits to believers through Jesus, and scripture nowhere affirms that these benefits come through the efforts of saints in heaven?
Scripture no where affirms that there are spiritual and/or earthly benefits for us when others pray for us? Methinks you need to read some more.

Note that we've still not addressed the utter silence of the bible on the matter of different ranks of Christians in heaven, as in "some are saints worthy of being prayed to whereas others are not saints (or otherwise not worthy or competent to intercede)." It seems as though they're all equal in the sight of scripture.
So you believe that those who Scripture says are "saved, yet though as through fire" because of their evil works have received the same reward as, for example, the Apostles? I think that position flies in the face of quite a bit of Scriptural evidence. The Bible repeatedly speaks of the fact that we will be judged after death by the things which we have done in this body, either good or bad. Since our actions are not all the same, our reward logically would not be the same.

So why can't I pray to my Aunt Hilda?
You can, I guess...is your Aunt Hilda a Christian who is in heaven?

And if I can do that, why can't the pagan down the street pray to his righteous uncle Fred?
If his uncle truly is righteous, and he's not worshipping him as God, then I suppose he can.

In other words, what really distinguishes prayer to the saints from the pagan practice of ancestor worship? Seems like same same to me.
Asking someone to pray for you in different from worshipping them. You'll have to demonstrate how those two things are the same.
 

SpiritualBeing

Active Member
Being from Greenock are you a seafaring man?or from that line?

Yeah, I'm right into ships and I've been out on a Fishing Trawler doing some Summer jobs.

Some of my family were fishermen, so yeah, it's "in my blood" in a sense. There are a few of my family who were Theologists, ministers and open air preachers, and I definitley think that's been passed down in the blood.

:candle:
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Of course it's to obtain spiritual benefit. That doesn't mean it's replacing God...ultimately a saint's ability to help us is by God's grace given to that saint.

Chapter and verse, please....

Scripture no where affirms that there are spiritual and/or earthly benefits for us when others pray for us? Methinks you need to read some more.

Yes, but in EVERY scriptural instance, we have living, embodied saints praying for other living, embodied saints. Never do we see any instance of a living, embodied saint appealing to a dead saint. Ever. The silence is deafening.

So you believe that those who Scripture says are "saved, yet though as through fire" because of their evil works have received the same reward as, for example, the Apostles? I think that position flies in the face of quite a bit of Scriptural evidence. The Bible repeatedly speaks of the fact that we will be judged after death by the things which we have done in this body, either good or bad. Since our actions are not all the same, our reward logically would not be the same.

Remember that Christianity proposes a two-stage post-mortem existence. In the first stage, which takes place when a Christian dies, he or she is whisked into the presence of God. Jesus called that situation "Paradise." And he promised it to a life-long murderer who recognized Jesus' authority only in the last moments of life. That man is every bit as much a saint as is so-called "Saint" Christopher or "Saint" Paul. In Paradise, all Christians are exactly EQUAL. The second stage occurs when Jesus returns to judge the living and the dead. At that time, all the dead will be resurrected to new embodied life. In THAT condition, some will have more glory than another. Thus I expect Saint Paul to have much more authority than me, for instance. But in the INTERIM state, if I go to Paradise before Jesus returns, Saint Paul and Saint Dunemeister are exactly equal in status. Between Paradise and Resurrection, there is simply no distinction between Christians with respect to status. None. And I defy anyone to provide solid scriptural warrant for thinking otherwise.

Asking someone to pray for you in different from worshipping them. You'll have to demonstrate how those two things are the same.

Praying "to" someone is an act of worship. If that's not obvious, I'm afraid I can't make it so by further argument.

I'd say that it's perfectly legitimate to pray FOR and WITH the departed. That is, we can pray that God would grant them rest while they await the resurrection. We can also pray for those things that the departed are depicted as praying for in scripture. In scripture, we see the martyrs praying for justice, for God's kingdom to appear on earth as in heaven. We should certainly say our "Amen" to that. But we are nowhere authorized or encouraged to pray to the saints to grant us benefits that are already available to us through Jesus.

Indeed, to bypass Jesus is one of the greatest insults one could offer him. It's not as if you're saluting the saint when you pray to him (although you may be doing so). You're actually insulting Jesus. Why try to manipulate God by cajoling members of the heavenly court when, as a fully inherited adopted son of God you have the right to boldly approach God and ask for help, wisdom, or whatever? Christ has promised that he would answer our prayers, and we need not wheedle him through intermediaries. God is immediate to us through Jesus. Why all the bureaucracy?
 
Chapter and verse, please....
You want a chapter and verse for the fact that all spiritual benefits reaped through godly individuals are ultimately from God as the source of all grace and mercy? I'm really shocked that you deny that.



Yes, but in EVERY scriptural instance, we have living, embodied saints praying for other living, embodied saints. Never do we see any instance of a living, embodied saint appealing to a dead saint. Ever. The silence is deafening.
That's odd...I thought that people in heaven were alive. They have been granted eternal life, no? If anything, they're more alive than we are. As for being "embodied" I have no idea what having a physical body has to do with praying or answering prayer.
We do see various places in Scripture where those in heaven do hear the cries of those on Earth. See, for example Revelation 5 where the 24 elders (usually said to be a symbol for the Church in heaven) present the prayers of the saints to God.


Remember that Christianity proposes a two-stage post-mortem existence. In the first stage, which takes place when a Christian dies, he or she is whisked into the presence of God. Jesus called that situation "Paradise." And he promised it to a life-long murderer who recognized Jesus' authority only in the last moments of life. That man is every bit as much a saint as is so-called "Saint" Christopher or "Saint" Paul. In Paradise, all Christians are exactly EQUAL. The second stage occurs when Jesus returns to judge the living and the dead. At that time, all the dead will be resurrected to new embodied life. In THAT condition, some will have more glory than another. Thus I expect Saint Paul to have much more authority than me, for instance. But in the INTERIM state, if I go to Paradise before Jesus returns, Saint Paul and Saint Dunemeister are exactly equal in status. Between Paradise and Resurrection, there is simply no distinction between Christians with respect to status. None. And I defy anyone to provide solid scriptural warrant for thinking otherwise.
Your entire reasoning here is built on how you define "Paradise," as a place where believers currently go in distinction to heaven, as an "interim state." Traditionally, my understanding has been that Paradise was separate from heaven under the Old Testament economy, but that Christ between His death and resurrection took Paradise, along with all OT saints, into heaven. NT saints therefore go to heaven when they die, as Paradise has been joined with it. This makes sense since, at the Second Coming, we see Jesus coming from heaven with His saints. If there are no saints in heaven until after the Second Coming then that doesn't make much sense.



Praying "to" someone is an act of worship. If that's not obvious, I'm afraid I can't make it so by further argument.
If it's not obvious that Catholics and other Christians who pray to saints mean something different when they speak of praying "to" saints than when they speak of praying "to" God, then it is I who cannot help you. The phrases mean different things, as a knowledgeable person could tell you. Consider the usage of the word "pray" in Old English.


I'd say that it's perfectly legitimate to pray FOR and WITH the departed. That is, we can pray that God would grant them rest while they await the resurrection. We can also pray for those things that the departed are depicted as praying for in scripture. In scripture, we see the martyrs praying for justice, for God's kingdom to appear on earth as in heaven. We should certainly say our "Amen" to that. But we are nowhere authorized or encouraged to pray to the saints to grant us benefits that are already available to us through Jesus.
If all your benefits are granted to you through Jesus, do you ask others to pray for you here on Earth? Aren't you taking glory away from Christ by expecting them to provide you with spiritual/earthly benefits via their prayers?


Indeed, to bypass Jesus is one of the greatest insults one could offer him.
Again, my question above stands.


It's not as if you're saluting the saint when you pray to him (although you may be doing so). You're actually insulting Jesus. Why try to manipulate God by cajoling members of the heavenly court when, as a fully inherited adopted son of God you have the right to boldly approach God and ask for help, wisdom, or whatever? Christ has promised that he would answer our prayers, and we need not wheedle him through intermediaries. God is immediate to us through Jesus. Why all the bureaucracy
Again, my comment from earlier applies to your misconception here. Asking saints to pray to God for us is not a substitute for praying to God ourselves.
 
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