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An Idle Tale

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Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
You're right. The emptiness of the tomb isn't proof of resurrection. But Jesus' appearance post-crucifixion to his disciples is. You're conveniently forgetting those parts of the gospels.

Why didn't she think of the resurrection? Why wouldn't anybody think of the resurrection if the body of their loved one turned up missing? And, BTW, the resurrection was known of, but it was considered to occur on "the last day." (See John 11:24 -- "Martha said to him [Jesus], 'I know that he [Lazarus] will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.'")

Indeed, his resurrection waited precisely about 30 seconds, not 30 years, when he appeared to her in the garden.
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Did I hear you say 30 seconds? How about 3 days? Wasn't after three days that Jesus was supposed to resurrect? Take a look at Matthew 12:40. What happened to the three days and three nights?

Ben:shrug:
 
FerventGodSeeker

FerventGodSeeker

Believer
sojourner said:
You're right. The emptiness of the tomb isn't proof of resurrection. But Jesus' appearance post-crucifixion to his disciples is. You're conveniently forgetting those parts of the gospels.
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Not to mention the parts where the Gospel writers explicitly STATE that He was resurrected (John 2:19-22). When the text explicitly states it it's hard to get around that...but apparently some still try. :shrug:
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Ben Masada said:
Hi Sojouner,
The Apostles of Jesus did see him alive but not after his burial. Take a look at Acts 1:3. Luke says that the disciples saw Jesus alive AFTER HIS PASSION and not after his burial. To appear alive after his passion does not mean he resurrected. It means he recovered. And that's exactly
what happened to Jesus. As he recovered from his wounds he started appearing to his disciples.
I bet you never thought about this, did you?

Ben
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The NRSV reads "suffering" instead of "passion." The Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms lists "passion" thusly:

(From Lat. passio, "suffering") A term for the sufferings of Jesus both spiritually and physically prior to and including his crucifixion.

Since crucifixion always ended in death, we can assume that Luke meant Jesus appeared to his disciples following his death. Especially since Luke also talks about the resurrection and subsequent appearances in his gospel.

I didn't think about it because it would have been absurd for me to have done that.
You're grasping for straws that just aren't there.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Ben Masada said:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Did I hear you say 30 seconds? How about 3 days? Wasn't after three days that Jesus was supposed to resurrect? Take a look at Matthew 12:40. What happened to the three days and three nights?

Ben:shrug:
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The exchange of Mary with the "gardener" took about 30 seconds. It took that long for Jesus to make himself known to her.
 
B

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
The NRSV reads "suffering" instead of "passion." The Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms lists "passion" thusly:

(From Lat. passio, "suffering") A term for the sufferings of Jesus both spiritually and physically prior to and including his crucifixion.

Since crucifixion always ended in death, we can assume that Luke meant Jesus appeared to his disciples following his death. Especially since Luke also talks about the resurrection and subsequent appearances in his gospel.

I didn't think about it because it would have been absurd for me to have done that.
You're grasping for straws that just aren't there.
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Passion or suffering is the same, and you are right about always ending with death, but not in the case of Jesus. "Assume!" Why didn't I think about that, if assumptions
is all that the NT is about?

According to Flavius Josephus some of the crucified would spend even from three to four days on the cross before they expired. Jesus was brought down the cross after no more than three hours by Joseph of Arimathea who probably realized that life was still in Jesus' body. Because of the people around, he laid Jesus for a few hours in his large tomb and just rolled the tombstone across. A few hours later he returned to remove Jesus from there and to take care of his wounds so that soon he could appear to his disciples. That's what happened. Otherwise, how to explain that the tomb was empty at the end of that Saturday?

Ben:sleep:
 
FerventGodSeeker

FerventGodSeeker

Believer
Ben Masada said:
According to Flavius Josephus some of the crucified would spend even from three to four days on the cross before they expired. Jesus was brought down the cross after no more than three hours by Joseph of Arimathea who probably realized that life was still in Jesus' body.
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Where is that in Scripture?
Because of the people around, he laid Jesus for a few hours in his large tomb and just rolled the tombstone across. A few hours later he returned to remove Jesus from there and to take care of his wounds so that soon he could appear to his disciples.
Click to expand...
Where is that in Scripture? Do you realize that the Pharisees, according to Scripture, foresaw an attempt to steal Christ's body and specifically made arrangements to prevent it?
 
B

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Flavius Josephus was a famous Jewish Historian of the First Century. If you deny History without checking it up, I guess you have that right too.

Regarding Joseph of Arimathea doing what I speculated he did, it was a very intelligent speculation, because according to Matthew 28:57-61, he was the one who removed Jesus from the cross and laid him in his large tomb. If you don't believe that he returned a few hours later and removed Jesus from the tomb, now it's your turn to explain why at the end of that Saturday,
when Mary Magdalene went to the tomb area, she saw that the tomb was empty. Explain that vis-a-vis the three days and three night of Matthew 12:40. I am all ears.

Ben
 
Jeremy Mason

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
Ben Masada said:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Passion or suffering is the same, and you are right about always ending with death, but not in the case of Jesus. "Assume!" Why didn't I think about that, if assumptions
is all that the NT is about?

According to Flavius Josephus some of the crucified would spend even from three to four days on the cross before they expired. Jesus was brought down the cross after no more than three hours by Joseph of Arimathea who probably realized that life was still in Jesus' body. Because of the people around, he laid Jesus for a few hours in his large tomb and just rolled the tombstone across. A few hours later he returned to remove Jesus from there and to take care of his wounds so that soon he could appear to his disciples. That's what happened. Otherwise, how to explain that the tomb was empty at the end of that Saturday?

Ben:sleep:
Click to expand...

Are you saying that the Roman executioner could not tell if the person who he was executing was dead or alive? Especially, after Jesus' predicted that he would be resurrected? I'm quite sure that old executioner was throughly convinced that Jesus was dead.

Ok, lets say Jesus somehow appeared to be dead, (which is understandable since he was lanced through the chest after the rest of his ordeal). The condition that a person would be in after a near death encounter of that magnitude does not explain the rather well off condition Jesus exhibited a short time after.

Not all people believe the story about Jesus' death in the NT and that is their prerogative. My faith and understanding of these events are limited to the amount of information that is available. Nevertheless, the NT, IMO, does not provide a reasonable series of events that would explain a near death scenario into a relatively happy, walking, talking person in that amount of time.
 
Charity

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
Jeremy Mason said:
Are you saying that the Roman executioner could not tell if the person who he was executing was dead or alive? Especially, after Jesus' predicted that he would be resurrected? I'm quite sure that old executioner was throughly convinced that Jesus was dead.

Ok, lets say Jesus somehow appeared to be dead, (which is understandable since he was lanced through the chest after the rest of his ordeal). The condition that a person would be in after a near death encounter of that magnitude does not explain the rather well off condition Jesus exhibited a short time after.

Not all people believe the story about Jesus' death in the NT and that is their prerogative. My faith and understanding of these events are limited to the amount of information that is available. Nevertheless, the NT, IMO, does not provide a reasonable series of events that would explain a near death scenario into a relatively happy, walking, talking person in that amount of time.
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Don't waste your time Jeremy, It's useless to even try....:ignore:
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Ben Masada said:
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I have as a gift from God the intellectual vision to see between the lines.
I never stay on the surfice of what is said. I go deeper where the pearls are found.
On the surfice swim those who are unprotected by the Divine oxygen.
I can breathe under the stormy waves of the trivialities of life.

Ben:clap
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Just wait till you meet Daddy.

To know him is to love him.

You think you're hot snot, but one day you'll wake up and be just a cold booger on a plate.
 
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B

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
angellous_evangellous said:
Just wait till you meet Daddy.

To know him is to love him.

You think you're hot snot, but one day you'll wake up and be just a cold booger on a plate.
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+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

No wonder I love Daddy so much. All my life, the struggle is one only: To know more and more of Him.

Regarding waking up one day as a cold booger on a plate, the consolation is that I won't be alone. That's the way of all flesh.

Ben:clap
 
B

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
If the Apostles of Jesus lived three years with him, listening to him daily, considered the news
about his resurrection an idle tale of women speaking nonsense, what does it say? Obviously, that Jesus never said a thing to them about resurrection or much less that he would resurrect after three days. It further says, that the idea was fabricated by Paul about 30 years after Jesus'
death, since during those 30 years the idea never climbed into the agenda of the Apostles.

Ben
 
ChristineES

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
The other apostles doubted Mary at first until they saw Jesus themselves- particularly Thomas. If there was just an empty tomb- pointed out in the OP, then would not have been proof. But it also says Jesus appeared to the Apostles afterward-which several people have brought up in this thread.
You seem to think that Paul made up a story about someone he heard about and made a religion out of it. But there are other people writing, not just Paul. Paul didn't write the Gospels themselves nor all the epistles. And it is clear that Paul and Peter knew each other. There is a belief by some that The Gospel of Mark was written by Simon Peter's son.

You don't have to believe. No one can force another to believe anything. But using the NT against the NT doesn't really work.
 
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