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Baha'i Apologetics Anyone?

RonPrice

Mr Ron Price
Apologetics is a branch of systematic theology, although some experience it’s thrust in religious studies or philosophy of religion courses. Some encounter it on the internet for the first time in a more populist and usually much less academic form. As I see it, apologetics is primarily concerned with the protection of a position, the refutation of that position's assailants and, in the larger sense, the exploration of that position in the context of prevailing philosophies and standards in a secular society or, indeed, a religious society. Apologetics, to put it slightly differently, is concerned with answering critical inquiries, criticism of a position, in a rational manner. Apologetics is not possible, it seems to me anyway, without a commitment to and a desire to defend a position. Naturally in life, one takes a position on all sorts of topics, subjects, religions and philosophies.


With that said, though, the activity I engage in, namely, apologetics, is a never ending exercise. The apologetics that concerns me is not so much Christian apologetics or one of a variety of what might be called secular apologetics, but Baha'i apologetics. There are many points of comparison and contrast, though, which I won't go into here. Christians will have the opportunity to defend Christianity by the use of apologetics; secular humanists can argue their cases if they so desire here. And I will in turn defend the Baha'i Faith by the use of apologetics. In the process we will both, hopefully, learn something about our respective Faiths, our religions, our various and our multitudinous positions, some of which we hold to our hearts dearly and some of which are of little interest.


At the outset, then, in this my first posting, my intention is simply to make this start, to state what you might call "my apologetics position." This brief statement indicates, in broad outline, where I am coming from in the weeks and months ahead. -Ron Price with thanks to Udo Schaefer, "Baha'i Apologetics?" Baha'i Studies Review, Vol. 10, 2001/2002._______________________________________________

I want in this second part of my first posting to finish, as best I can, outlining a basic orientation to Baha’i apologetics. Critical scholarly contributions or criticism raised in public or private discussions, an obvious part of apologetics, should not necessarily be equated with hostility. Often questions are perfectly legitimate aspects of a person's search for an answer to an intellectual conundrum. Paul Tillich once expressed the view that apologetics was an "answering theology."(Systematic Theology, U. of Chicago, 1967, Vol.1, p6.)


I have always been attracted to the founder of the Baha'i Faith's exhortations in discussion to "speak with words as mild as milk," with "the utmost lenience and forbearance." I am also aware that, in cases of rude or hostile attack, rebuttal with a harsher tone may well be justified. It does not help an apologist to belong to those "watchmen" the prophet Isaiah calls "dumb dogs that cannot bark."(Isaiah, 56:10)


In its essence apologetics is a kind of confrontation, an act of revealing one's true colours, of hoisting the flag, of demonstrating essential characteristics of one's faith, of one's thought, of one's emotional and intellectual stance in life. Dialogue, as Hans Kung puts it, "does not mean self-denial;" but the standard of public discussion of controversial topics should be sensitive to what is said and how. Not everything that we know should always be disclosed; to put this another way, we don't want all our dirty laundry out on our front lawn for all to see or our secrets blasted over the radio and TV.


I want to thank Udo Schaefer, "Baha'i Apologetics," Baha'i Studies Review, Vol.10, 2001/2) for some of what I write here. Schaefer goes on discussing one's views one's faith which he says "should not be opportunistically streamlined, adapting to current trends, thus concealing their real features, features that could provoke rejection in order to be acceptable for dialogue." To do this puts one in the danger of losing one's identity.


It is almost impossible to carry the torch of truth through a crowd without getting someone's beard singed. In the weeks and months that follow, my postings will probably wind up singing the beards of some readers and, perhaps, my own in the process. Such are the perils of dialogue, of apologetics. Much of Baha'i apologetics derives from the experience Baha'is have of a fundamental discrepancy between secular thought and the Baha'i teachings on the other. In some ways, the gulf is unbridgeable but, so too, is this the case between the secular and much thought in the Christian or Islamic religion or, for that matter, between variants of Christianity or secular thought itself. That is why, or at least one of the reasons, I have chosen to make postings at this forum-this forum invites dialogue.


Anyway, that's all for now. It's back to the winter winds of Tasmania, about 3 kms from the Bass Straight on the Tamar River. The geography of place is so much simpler than that of the spiritual geography readers at this site are concerned with, although even physical geography has its complexities. Whom the gods would destroy they first make simple and simpler and simpler. I look forward to a dialogue with someone. Here in far-off Tasmania--the last stop before Antarctica, if one wants to get there through some other route than off the end of South America--your response will be gratefully received. -Ron Price, Tasmania, Australia.:cool:
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
In my opinion, any religion that has need of apologetics does so because aspects of the religion are inherently flawed, to the degree that inconsistencies, problems, contradictions and nonsensicalness are clearly perceived by the uninitiated and thus require defences that, under intense scrutiny, either end in circular reasoning or reach a dead-end and become "matters of faith".
 

Adib

Lover of World Religions
In my opinion, any religion that has need of apologetics does so because aspects of the religion are inherently flawed, to the degree that inconsistencies, problems, contradictions and nonsensicalness are clearly perceived by the uninitiated and thus require defences that, under intense scrutiny, either end in circular reasoning or reach a dead-end and become "matters of faith".


I think that's an oversimplification of apologetics. For example, sometimes followers of different religions either have genuine misconceptions or misinformation about another religion. At other times, there are malicious schemes to try to portray an unreal picture of a religion, its history, teachings, or the lives/morals of their key figures. A good example of all of this is the various polemics one sees by Muslims against Baha'is.
 

Adib

Lover of World Religions
The Baha'i that I've seen in the midst of apologetics just weren't aggressive enough for the questions they were asked. That, and a lot of their answers have loop holes that are very difficult to explain away.

I guess we're just not a very aggressive bunch. ;) It's a waste of energy; one can still make their point while being calm and collected without stressing themselves out.

In regards to the loopholes, again, elaboration would be helpful.
 
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BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Greetings!

My experiences with viewing Baha'i apologetics have shown that they don't stand up very well against an aggressive opponent.

If you think that, then you have obviously never read Schaefer's excellent apologetic refuting a notorious opponent of the Baha'i Faith in Germany, which is available in the US under the title Making the Crooked Straight!

I highly recommend this book, which consists of around 700 pages, to anyone interested in this topic specifically or in the Baha'i Faith generally!

Peace,

Bruce
 
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BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
In my opinion, any religion that has need of apologetics does so because aspects of the religion are inherently flawed.....

Clearly not!

The most perfect of religions may well employ apologetics, and this in no way reflects on the religion itself!

Obviously some detractors are misinformed or mistaken, while others are merely hostile (for whatever reason). None of this is the fault of the religion in question provided it has made a sincere effort to make its teachings clear and available!

So while this is an entirely different situation, I think your claim is as mistaken as the well-known "blaming the messenger" fallacy: a definite misplacement of culpability and blame!

Peace,

Bruce
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Anyway, that's all for now. It's back to the winter winds of Tasmania, about 3 kms from the Bass Straight on the Tamar River. The geography of place is so much simpler than that of the spiritual geography readers at this site are concerned with, although even physical geography has its complexities. Whom the gods would destroy they first make simple and simpler and simpler. I look forward to a dialogue with someone. Here in far-off Tasmania--the last stop before Antarctica, if one wants to get there through some other route than off the end of South America--your response will be gratefully received. -Ron Price, Tasmania, Australia.:cool:

Hello Ron Price,

I am quite impressed with your first post and will look forward to subsequent posts. It is rather nice to have someone who can elucidate their thinking so clearly. My only hope is that you do not descend into the realm of "quotations as answers" as is so common with followers of the Baha'i faith.

Welcome to the nuthouse known as ReligiousForums.com :drool:
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Greetings!

[to a third party] My only hope is that you do not descend into the realm of "quotations as answers" as is so common with followers of the Baha'i faith.

What you overlook is that there is an excellent reason for this!

The Baha'i scriptures are thoroughly reliable both as to pedigree and to content, and therefore serve as far more reliable (and frequently more eloquent) statements and arguments than our own eminently fallible words!

And it is for this reason that we tend to favor quoting our scriptures rather than "winging it" with alfresco responses.

Peace, :)

Bruce
 

idea

Question Everything
I think that's an oversimplification of apologetics. For example, sometimes followers of different religions either have genuine misconceptions or misinformation about another religion. At other times, there are malicious schemes to try to portray an unreal picture of a religion, its history, teachings, or the lives/morals of their key figures. A good example of all of this is the various polemics one sees by Muslims against Baha'is.

I agree. I think every belief system there is needs apologetics. It's not like one needs them while others do not. I love people willing to talk ap - some are not willing to talk at all, they just clamb up when you ask them anything... no good comes out of don't ask/don't tell... IMO.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Greetings! What you overlook is that there is an excellent reason for this!
I have not overlooked anything, Bruce, quite the contrary actually. I do note that, to your credit, you try to explain things, in your own words, much of the time.

The Baha'i scriptures are thoroughly reliable both as to pedigree and to content, and therefore serve as far more reliable (and frequently more eloquent) statements and arguments than our own eminently fallible words!

And it is for this reason that we tend to favor quoting our scriptures rather than "winging it" with alfresco responses.
Trust me, Bruce, I do understand this, however in my view this often makes Baha'i followers simply sound like unimaginative, well trained parrots. One may as well quote chapter and verse, then supply directions to the nearest library (or supply directions to download "Ocean").

What I would prefer to see from Baha's folks is perhaps the given quote and THEIR interpretation of what the quote means.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
I have not overlooked anything, Bruce, quite the contrary actually. I do note that, to your credit, you try to explain things, in your own words, much of the time.

Trust me, Bruce, I do understand this, however in my view this often makes Baha'i followers simply sound like unimaginative, well trained parrots. One may as well quote chapter and verse, then supply directions to the nearest library (or supply directions to download "Ocean").

What I would prefer to see from Baha's folks is perhaps the given quote and THEIR interpretation of what the quote means.


The problem with looking for personal interpretations isthat such interpretations are not in anyway authoritative.

If you ever want to know my personal opinion, please ask. I deal in bulk at the deepest of discounts.

"If you want three opinions on anything, just ask two rabbis."
Jewish proverb

Regards, Scott
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Greetings, greetings! :)

... or supply directions to download "Ocean".

(Please note that while we distribute Ocean, it isn't particularly a Baha'i product as it contains the scriptures of many different religions, definitely not just our own! And further, I believe it can be expanded by the user to include additional works not in the original package.)

What I would prefer to see from Baha's folks is perhaps the given quote and THEIR interpretation of what the quote means.

I--for one--often endeavor to do just that! Always with the cavest, of course, that my personal opinion should count for nothing with the listener.

And for example, my standard overview of the Faith, which comprises 3,700 words in 106 paragraphs, is something I wrote entirely on my own! And it contains only three brief quotes at the end (filling less than one screen).

Peace, :)

Bruce
 
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Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
Clearly not!

The most perfect of religions may well employ apologetics, and this in no way reflects on the religion itself!

Obviously some detractors are misinformed or mistaken, while others are merely hostile (for whatever reason). None of this is the fault of the religion in question provided it has made a sincere effort to make its teachings clear and available!

So while this is an entirely different situation, I think your claim is as mistaken as the well-known "blaming the messenger" fallacy: a definite misplacement of culpability and blame!

Peace,

Bruce
There is a difference between re-educating non-believers who have heard false information, and creating imaginative inventions in an attempt to assimilate disparate beliefs/teachings or gloss over inconsistencies - apologetics is the latter.
 

Fazl Ahmad

Member
The essential problem with Bahai religion is that it claims to be a continuation of the Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. So Bahais claim to believe in the great prophets Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all). However, Bahais also claim to believe in a new prophet who appeared in Iran whom they call "Bahaullah". Muslims believe that Muhammad is the last and final prophet, and the Quran is the final revelation. Islam is a complete and perfect path of devotion. You cannot claim to recognize Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam) as a Prophet from Allah and at the same time believe in the "Bahaullah". It is impossible!

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets (Quran 33:40)

Here Allah has named Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam) as Seal of the Prophets, which means he is the last of the prophets, no new prophet or messenger will come after him. Islam is also a complete and perfected religion, whereas Bahai is a totally separate and parallel religion. Islam has to be true and Bahai false, because Bahai recognizes Islam, and Islam clearly teaches that it is the final religion!

This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion (quran 5:3)

Another problem with Bahai religion is that it has altered the meaning of every basic Abrahamic/monotheistic belief. For example, Bahais believe that Heaven and Hell are not real places but rather "states of being", the Day of Judgment is not a real day but rather something symbolic, and Angels are merely the forces of nature. These strange beliefs which have no connection with the beliefs taught by the prophets or found in the sacred scriptures, were the "Bahaullah's" own invention, influenced from the atmosphere of prevailing rationalism and opposition to all supernatural beliefs during the 19th century.
 

UnityNow101

Well-Known Member
The essential problem with Bahai religion is that it claims to be a continuation of the Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

You are using the same argument against the Bahai Faith as the proponents of Christianity have used against Muhammed and the Islamic Faith. If Muhammed can claim to be an extension of the faith of Abraham, than so can Bahaullah. Christianity taught that Jesus was the final revelation to mankind and thus rejected the claims of Muhammed. You are doing the same sort of injustice to the Bahai Faith in the name of keeping the true faith together.
 

Fazl Ahmad

Member
UnityNow101 said:
You are using the same argument against the Bahai Faith as the proponents of Christianity have used against Muhammed and the Islamic Faith. If Muhammed can claim to be an extension of the faith of Abraham, than so can Bahaullah. Christianity taught that Jesus was the final revelation to mankind and thus rejected the claims of Muhammed. You are doing the same sort of injustice to the Bahai Faith in the name of keeping the true faith together.

I happened to have read the entire Bible and I never found a single verse which says Jesus is the last and final prophet, or his revelation is the last revelation. On the contrary Christianity says that prophethood is still open, and recognizes many prophets who came after Jesus. For example, Paul writes that the gift of prophecy is still attainable spiritual gift: "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy." (1 Corinthians 14:1) How can Jesus be the final prophet and his message the final revelation when according to Paul, whom orthodox Christians revere as an "apostle", says that not only is the gift of prophecy available, it is something which all Christians should desire that God confer upon themselves.

In fact, the Bible is full of prophecies pointing to the advent of Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam). One of the most famous was revealed to Moses in the Torah:

"I will raise up for them a prophet like you (O Moses!) from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." (Deuteronomy 18:18-19)

Not only God is saying in this prophecy to Moses that He will raise another prophet from among the brothers of the Israelites (meaning the Ishmaelites), but also that if anyone rejects this prophet when he comes will be held directly accountable to God Himself.

According to the Gospels, the Jews were still expecting this "Prophet" to appear even during the lifetime of Jesus, which means up until than he didn't come!

When John the Baptist appeared, the Jews wanted to know if he was one of three people they were expecting:

"He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, 'I am not the Christ.' They asked him, 'Then who are you? Are you Elijah?' He said, 'I am not.' 'Are you the Prophet?' He answered, 'No.'" (John 1:20-21)

According to this verse, the Jews were waiting for the coming of the Christ or Messiah, the second coming of Elijah, and the coming of the Prophet, the one who would be like Moses according to Deuteronomy. It was only Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam) who claimed to be the "Prophet", as the Quran says:

We have sent to you, (O mankind!) a Messenger, to be a witness concerning you, even as We sent a Messenger to pharaoh (Quran 73:15)

Now getting back to the subject of Bahai. Your analogy is wrong because Christianity doesn't claim prophecy has ended therefore Muhammad's (alaihi salatu wa salam) claim of prophecy is valid. However, Islam, which Bahais accept as a valid religion teaches that Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam) is the final prophet and messenger, and his message the final revelation. Therefore Bahais would be better off rejecting the Quran and Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam) altogether, rather than the impossibility of trying to reconcile Islam and the teachings of "Bahaullah", which are radically opposed.
 

Adib

Lover of World Religions


I happened to have read the entire Bible and I never found a single verse which says Jesus is the last and final prophet, or his revelation is the last revelation. On the contrary Christianity says that prophethood is still open, and recognizes many prophets who came after Jesus. For example, Paul writes that the gift of prophecy is still attainable spiritual gift: "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy." (1 Corinthians 14:1) How can Jesus be the final prophet and his message the final revelation when according to Paul, whom orthodox Christians revere as an "apostle", says that not only is the gift of prophecy available, it is something which all Christians should desire that God confer upon themselves.

In fact, the Bible is full of prophecies pointing to the advent of Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam). One of the most famous was revealed to Moses in the Torah:

"I will raise up for them a prophet like you (O Moses!) from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." (Deuteronomy 18:18-19)

Not only God is saying in this prophecy to Moses that He will raise another prophet from among the brothers of the Israelites (meaning the Ishmaelites), but also that if anyone rejects this prophet when he comes will be held directly accountable to God Himself.

According to the Gospels, the Jews were still expecting this "Prophet" to appear even during the lifetime of Jesus, which means up until than he didn't come!

When John the Baptist appeared, the Jews wanted to know if he was one of three people they were expecting:

"He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, 'I am not the Christ.' They asked him, 'Then who are you? Are you Elijah?' He said, 'I am not.' 'Are you the Prophet?' He answered, 'No.'" (John 1:20-21)

According to this verse, the Jews were waiting for the coming of the Christ or Messiah, the second coming of Elijah, and the coming of the Prophet, the one who would be like Moses according to Deuteronomy. It was only Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam) who claimed to be the "Prophet", as the Quran says:

We have sent to you, (O mankind!) a Messenger, to be a witness concerning you, even as We sent a Messenger to pharaoh (Quran 73:15)

Now getting back to the subject of Bahai. Your analogy is wrong because Christianity doesn't claim prophecy has ended therefore Muhammad's (alaihi salatu wa salam) claim of prophecy is valid. However, Islam, which Bahais accept as a valid religion teaches that Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam) is the final prophet and messenger, and his message the final revelation. Therefore Bahais would be better off rejecting the Quran and Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam) altogether, rather than the impossibility of trying to reconcile Islam and the teachings of "Bahaullah", which are radically opposed.

A Baha'i Approach to the Claim of Finality in Islam
 
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