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The Female Muslim Prayerleader Caused A Stir Then?

Yerda

Veteran Member
The BBC has been reporting on a woman leading prayer in a mosque in NY, one guy commented it was blasphemy and the penalty is death. Ah, freedom and goodwill.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I was listening to NPR (national public radio) brodcasting BBC. Many muslim leaders said that they felt that it was for the most part fine... Some felt it was only ok if there were no men present, but that without men to lead the prayer that a woman who knew the Quran was fine.
Naturally there were those that didn't like it at all.

Honestly its no worse than any patriarchal religion fighting over the place of woman members in the modern day. Just look at the fight in many Christian branches over women priests.

The fact that they are eaven talking about it is a step in the right direction IMHO.
For the most part Islam has been very pro-womens rights, its nice to see them trying to keep that up.

wa:do
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
For the most part Islam has been very pro-womens rights, its nice to see them trying to keep that up.

Are we talking about the same Islam here?
How has Islam ever been Pro-womens rights?
 

croak

Trickster
one guy commented it was blasphemy and the penalty is death.
That's a lie. It's just because some men (I said some ;)) don't want to feel inferior to women. Well, I'm going to make their day. I'm thinking of becoming a female Sheikh, or Sheikha. :D

How has Islam ever been Pro-womens rights?
http://answering-christianity.com/womensrights.htm

If a woman can be a President in Islam, isn't it also allowed for her to be a prayerleader or Imam? (I think it's Imama for women....)
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Rearing,

The site you post is not reality.

The reality is that women in most Muslim countries hold none of those rights.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
linwood, please be careful not to confuse Islams stance on Womens rights and the stance of the Cultures. Many Arabic cultures don't have much in the way of womens rights, but what is actually written in the Quran is quite different.

for instance women have the right to own property and inherit it from thier parents.
(a right not given in other Abrahamic religions)
And so on as the list Rearing provided shows.

The reality is that many countries mix culture and religion, no two Muslim contries are the same. Muslims in the USA are not the same culturally as Muslims in Saudi Arabia, who are not the same culturally as Muslims from Indonesia.
Women in Iran can vote, hold office, be doctors and lawers... women in Saudi Arabai untill a few days ago could not.
Is it the fault of the religion or of the Culure/interpretation of the religion?

wa:do
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
painted wolf:
Linwood, please be careful not to confuse Islams stance on Womens rights and the stance of the Cultures. Many Arabic cultures don't have much in the way of womens rights, but what is actually written in the Quran is quite different.


I`m not confusing the two but like Christianity the one is responsible for the other regardless of any misunderstanding.
The religion of Islam has sprung from the Koran.
The culture of Muslim countries has sprung from Islam.
Islam itself has sprung from the patriarchal Abrahamic culture.


To attempt to seperate Islam from the cultures that base themselves on Islam is not quite fair.

The reality is that many countries mix culture and religion, no two Muslim contries are the same. Muslims in the USA are not the same culturally as Muslims in Saudi Arabia, who are not the same culturally as Muslims from Indonesia.

So what we really have here is a more complex version of the "No True Muslim" argument.

Is it the fault of the religion or of the Culure/interpretation of the religion?

You fail to address the point that ultimately the culture is in great part based upon the religion.
You cannot ethically seperate the two.

Although I`d like to.

:)

wa:do[/QUOTE]
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Christianity used to oppress women. It's all in interpretation. I agree with PW--just because certain cultures have chosen to interpret their religion in a certain way, doesn't mean that thats how its supposed to be.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Ceridwen018 said:
Christianity used to oppress women. It's all in interpretation. I agree with PW--just because certain cultures have chosen to interpret their religion in a certain way, doesn't mean that thats how its supposed to be.
But who is to say "How it is supposed to be"?

My point is not that Islam is bad or intolerant as far as personal revelation goes.

My point is that it like Christianity is used towards the agenda of those who would oppress and discriminate.
It is a valuable tool to these ends.

Secularism removes this tool and allows for the equality of all as is shown by those countries that espouse Islam but seperate it from their governmental legislation.

I just have a problem espousing the beneficial role of any abrahamic religon towards womens rights when all any abrahamic religion has ever done for womens rights is to put up road blocks for it`s progress.

The fact that these road blocks have been and can be overcome is not a testament to the equality of relgious doctrine.

Any progress that has been made within any abrahamic system is due to the "weakening" or liberalising effects of a secular "wall" between religion and state.

Not the religion itself.
 

andddd

Member
Islam has defended women's rights until now. Islam gave women a high rank in society.
U ppl are giving false opinions about Islam.
Luckily for muslims..women have to wear Hijab (to cover her body parts) but Christianity allows women to go out half naked. Now..who would u think would be more protected? the girl wearing a skirt or a women covering her body parts? hmmm....

Islam is the only religion I know that kept their holy book unchanged since the prophet died. The bible has been changed..the tawrah has been changed..and yet u ppl still criticize Islam. As God said in the Quran...he will protect the Quran..wow...it came true!
 

_salam_

Member
linwood said:
But who is to say "How it is supposed to be"?
The Qur'an and the Sunnah of Muhammad (pbuh) thats who says how it's suppose to be. I don't care what any other Muslim does, Islam is about based on these two things not what some "mulsim" countries are doing today.


My point is that it like Christianity is used towards the agenda of those who would oppress and discriminate.
It is a valuable tool to these ends.

Secularism removes this tool and allows for the equality of all as is shown by those countries that espouse Islam but seperate it from their governmental legislation.
Anything, any idea can be used and twisted towards the agenda of those who would want to oppress and discriminate people, even a secular idea but this still doesn't mean that it reflects the true idea.
 

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
Women don't have to cover themselves in Islam. o.o It's recommended. It's also recommended in the Bible somewhere... I'd dig up the verses if I wasn't pressed for time.

I'm torn on the hijab. It would be nice if, you know, the men would just control themselves. It's okay for a male to walk around in only boxers- it's generally accepted and he wouldnt have to worry about being raped for doing so. If a women would walk around in her knickers and get raped; well, I can already hear the cries of "OH SHE DESERVED WHAT SHE GOT."


Islam gave so many rights to women when it first started, many rights Christian and Jewish women did not have- the right to own land, to be a vocal part of the community, to divorce. One of my favourite verses in the Quran is about the female infant asking for what crime was she killed, in reference to the pratice of burying some female infants alive. Unfortunately, those rights were taken away from the women in recent past.

It's rather unfortunate.


One of my exes was from Saudi Arabia- he spent much of his youth there and visits often. he is Muslim. He didn't believe I should work or even drive a car, among many things. He thought I should wear hijab.
My current SO, from Yemen, is the complete opposite. He is also a Muslim. He's extremely tolerant of everything and everyone. He's disgusted by and hates hijab and never wants me, or anyone else, to wear it.

In Saudi Arabia, women have very few rights. In Yemen it's very different- Yemen is a very liberal place compared to the rest of the Middle East.


It depends on the culture. It depends on how you were raised. If you were brought up being told and thinking something you tend to believe it.
 

_salam_

Member
jamaesi said:
Women don't have to cover themselves in Islam. o.o It's recommended. It's also recommended in the Bible somewhere... I'd dig up the verses if I wasn't pressed for time.
Lets read verse 24:31 shall we,

Yusuf Ali: "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty...."
Pickthal: "And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms and not to reveal their adornment...."
Shakir: "And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments..."

It's pretty direct that women should cover themselves.

I'm torn on the hijab. It would be nice if, you know, the men would just control themselves. It's okay for a male to walk around in only boxers- it's generally accepted and he wouldnt have to worry about being raped for doing so.
Funny you should mention men controlling themselves cause if we read the verse right before the last one I gave, verse 24:30, it reads,

Yusuf Ali: "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and gaurd their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do."
Pickthal: "Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is aware of what they do."
Shakir: "Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and gaurd their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is aware of what they do."

As you can see men are suppose to control themsevles and gaurd their modesty as well. It would not be right for a man to go walking around in just his boxer shorts, this would be unacceptable. Men/women have to be fully clothed when we "pray" so I think it's pretty safe to say that if it's not acceptable to present ourselves infront of our Lord with out clothes it wouldn't be acceptable otherwise.
 

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
I've read the Quran, I'm an former Muslim. It does not say do this or go to hell. I notice "should" in the first translation. Of course, when you translate it's easy to bend it any way you wish. I've yet to read my Quran that is in Arabic, though. I've studied much about this topic and the overwhelming opionon is that it is a choice to cover.

When I made the example I did not mean it in a strictly Islamic way; and secondly, men do not have to cover near as much as women do.
 

_salam_

Member
I agree it's a choice, everything is a choice. I never said or meant that if you don't cover you're automatically doomed to go to hell.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
linwood said:
I`m not confusing the two but like Christianity the one is responsible for the other regardless of any misunderstanding.
The religion of Islam has sprung from the Koran.
The culture of Muslim countries has sprung from Islam.
Islam itself has sprung from the patriarchal Abrahamic culture.

To attempt to seperate Islam from the cultures that base themselves on Islam is not quite fair.
Why is it not fair? The cultures predate Islam, most of the arab world was brutally violent long before Muhammad showed up. Further, from what I've read Islam has been consistantly misinterpreted for the benefits of the ruling classes and off course for the benefit of men over women.
 

john313

warrior-poet
Hijab is a choice of the woman in Islam. women are supposed to cover their breasts and private/sexual parts of course.
If i remember correctly Paul of Tarsus said in the bible basically that if women did not want to cover their heads, then they should shave them. i do not remember the verse. fortunately christians have realized this is silly and one of the many lies of Paul.
 
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