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Textual editing in the Quran

No*s

Captain Obvious
I was googling for sources on "higher criticism," which is something most people on here are probably aware I enjoy. However, in this page I ran across a very interesting quote that brought this subject to light:

Modern higher criticism is just beginning to be carried out on the Quran. This scholarship questions some traditional claims about its composition and content, contending that the Quran incorporates material from both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, and that the text of the Quran has developed over time. For example, Islamic history records that Uthman collected all variants of the Quran and destroyed those that he did not approve of. Parts of certain Hadith collections refer to chapters (suras) that are no longer extant in the Quran.

Several times on this list I've read the claim that the Quran hasn't been changed. I read here citation of evidence for the opposite. So, I must ask, where are the text critics and other scholars of higher criticism in Islam? They would ferret this sort of thing out.

Are the oldest manuscripts and their contents available?

I find it rather incredulous that a book was copied by hand without variation creeping in. It's the nature of the beast. Remember, simply saying "it has no changes" no more makes your claim true than it does the KJV-Onlyist who insists the KJV represents the originals perfectly.
 

_salam_

Member
Higher critism has been done with the Qur'an since very early on in Islam. The thing is that some orientalist don't want to face the facts that we have and like to take such events as the burning done by Uthman and make it into something it's not. Here is a very very brief article about the compilation of the Qur'an.

Proof of The Preservation of the Quran
[size=-1]


Imagine this scenario:




[size=-1]A professor gives a three hour lecture to his students. Imagine still that none of the students memorized this speech of the professor or wrote it down. Now forty years after that speech, if these same students decided to replicate professor's complete speech word for word, would they be able to do it? Obviously not. Because the only two modes of preservation historically is through writing and memory.[/size]

[size=-1]Therefore, for any claimants to proclaim that their scripture is preserved in purity, they have to provide concrete evidence that the Scripture was written in its entirety AND memorized in its entirety from the time it was revealed to our time, in a continuous and unbroken chain. If the memorization part doesn't exist parallel to the written part to act as a check and balance for it, then there is a genuine possibility that the written scripture may loose its purity through unintentional and intentional interpolations due to scribal errors, corruption by the enemies, pages getting decomposed etc, and these errors would be concurrently incorporated into subsequent texts, ultimately loosing its purity through ages.[/size]

[size=-1]Now, of all the religions mentioned above, does any one of them possess their scriptures in its entirety BOTH in writing AND in memory from the day of its revelation until our time.[/size]

[size=-1]None of them fit this required criteria, except one: This unique scripture is the Qur'an - revelation bestowed to Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) 1,418 years ago, as a guidance for all of humankind.[/size]

[size=-1]Lets analyze the claim of the preservation of the Quran...[/size]




[size=+1]Memorization[/size]

[size=-1]'In the ancient times, when writing was scarcely used, memory and oral transmission was exercised and strengthened to a degree now almost unknown' relates Michael Zwettler.(1)[/size]

[size=-1]Prophet Muhammad (S): The First Memorizer[/size]

[size=-1]It was in this 'oral' society that Prophet Muhammad (S) was born in Mecca in the year 570 C.E. At the age of 40, he started receiving divine Revelations from the One God, Allah, through Archangel Gabriel. This process of divine revelations continued for about 22.5 years just before he passed away.[/size]

[size=-1]Prophet Muhammad (S) miraculously memorized each revelation and used to proclaim it to his Companions. Angel Gabriel used to refresh the Quranic memory of the Prophet each year.[/size]

[size=-1]'The Prophet (S) was the most generous person, and he used to become more so (generous) particularly in the month of Ramadan because Gabriel used to meet him every night of the month of Ramadan till it elapsed. Allah's Messenger (S) use to recite the Qur'an for him. When Gabriel met him, he use to become more generous than the fast wind in doing good'. (2)[/size]

[size=-1]'Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur'an with the Prophet (S) once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he (Prophet) died'. (3)[/size]

[size=-1]The Prophet himself use to stay up a greater part of the night in prayers and use to recite Quran from memory.[/size]



[size=-1]Prophet's Companions: The First Generation Memorizers[/size]

[size=-1]Prophet Muhammad (S) encouraged his companions to learn and teach the Quran:[/size]

[size=-1]'The most superior among you (Muslims) are those who learn the Qur'an and teach it'. (4)[/size]

[size=-1]'Some of the companions who memorized the Quran were: 'Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Ibn Masud, Abu Huraira, Abdullah bin Abbas, Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As, Aisha, Hafsa, and Umm Salama'. (5)[/size]

[size=-1]'Abu Bakr, the first male Muslim to convert to Islam used to recite the Quran publicly in front of his house in Makka'. (6)[/size]

[size=-1]The Prophet also listened to the recitation of the Qur'an by the Companions: 'Allah Apostle said to me (Abdullah bin Mas'ud): "Recite (of the Quran) to me". I said: "Shall I recite it to you although it had been revealed to you?!" He Said: "I like to hear (the Quran) from others". So I recited Sura-an-Nisa' till I reached: "How (will it be) then when We bring from each nation a witness and We bring you (O Muhammad) as a witness against these people?"' (4:41) 'Then he said: "Stop!" Behold, his eyes were shedding tears then'. (7)[/size]

[size=-1]Many Quranic memorizers (Qurra) were present during the lifetime of the Prophet and afterwards through out the then Muslim world.[/size]

[size=-1]'At the battle of Yamama, many memorizers of the Quran were martyred. 'Narrated Zaid bin Thabit al Ansari, who was one of those who use to write the Divine Revelations: Abu Bakr sent me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra were killed). Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said: "Umar has come to me and said, the people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be some casualties among the Qurra (those who memorized the entire Quran) at other place..."' (8)[/size]

[size=-1]'Over the centuries of the Islamic Era, there have arisen throughout the various regions of the Islamic world literally thousands of schools devoted specially to the teaching of the Quran to children for the purpose of memorization. These are called, in Arabic, katatib (singular: Kuttab). It is said that the Caliph 'Umar (634-44) first ordered the construction of these schools in the age of the great expansion'. (9)[/size]



[size=-1]Second Generation Memorizers:[/size]

[size=-1]"...Quranic schools were set up everywhere. As an example to illustrate this I may refer to a great Muslim scholar, of the second Muslim generation, Ibn 'Amir, who was the judge of Damascus under the Caliph Umar Ibn 'Abd Al-Aziz. It is reported that in his school for teaching the Quran there were 400 disciples to teach in his absence". (10)[/size]



[size=-1]Memorizers in Subsequent Generations:[/size]

[size=-1]The Number of Katatib and similar schools in Cairo (Egypt) alone at one time exceeded two thousand. (11)[/size]

[size=-1]Currently both in the Muslim and non-Muslim countries thousands of schools with each instructing tens of hundreds of students the art of memorizing the entire Quran. In the city of Chicago itself, there are close to 40+ Mosques, with many of them holding class for children instructing them the art of Quranic memorization.[/size]



[size=-1]Further Points of Consideration:[/size]

[size=-1]* Muslims recite Quran from their memory in all of their five daily prayers. * Once a year, during the month of Fasting (Ramadan), Muslims listen to the complete recitation of the Quran by a Hafiz (memorizer of the entire Quran) * It's a tradition among Muslims that before any speech or presentation, marriages, sermons, Quran is recited.[/size]



[size=-1]Conclusion:[/size]

[size=-1]Quran is the only book, religious or secular, on the face of this planet that has been completely memorized by millions. These memorizers range from ages 6 and up, both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, blacks, whites, Orientals, poor and wealthy.[/size]

[size=-1]Thus the process of memorization was continuous , from Prophet[/size]

[size=-1]Muhammad's (S) time to ours with an unbroken chain.[/size]

[size=-1]"The method of transmitting the Quran from one generation to the next by having he young memorize the oral recitation of their elders had mitigated somewhat from the beginning the worst perils of relying solely on written records..." relates John Burton (12)[/size]

[size=-1]"This phenomenon of Quranic recital means that the text has traversed the centuries in an unbroken living sequence of devotion. It cannot, therefore, be handled as an antiquarian thing, nor as a historical document out of a distant past. The fact of hifz (Quranic Memorization) has made the Qur'an a present possession through all the lapse of Muslim time and given it a human currency in every generation never allowing its relegation to a bare authority for reference alone" reflects Kenneth Cragg (13)[/size]

continued below.
[/size]
 

_salam_

Member
Continued
Written Text of the Quran



[size=-1]Prophet's Time:


[size=-1]Prophet Muhammad (S) was very vigilant in preserving the Quran in the written form from the very beginning up until the last revelation. The Prophet himself was unlettered, did not knew how to read and write, therefore he called upon his numerous scribes to write the revelation for him. Complete Quran thus existed in written form in the lifetime of the Prophet.[/size]

[size=-1]Whenever a new revelation use to come to him, the Prophet would immediately call one of his scribes to write it down.[/size]

[size=-1]'Some people visited Zaid Ibn Thabit (one of the scribes of the Prophet) and asked him to tell them some stories about Allah's Messenger. He replied: "I was his (Prophet's) neighbor, and when the inspiration descended on him he sent for me and I went to him and wrote it down for him..." (14)[/size]

[size=-1]Narrated by al-Bara': There was revealed 'Not equal are those believers who sit (home) and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah' (4:95). The Prophet said: 'Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the ink pot and scapula bone.' Then he (Prophet) said: 'Write: Not equal are those believers...' (15)[/size]

[size=-1]Zaid is reported to have said: 'We use to compile the Qur'an from small scraps in the presence of the Apostle'. (16)[/size]

[size=-1]'The Prophet, while in Madinah, had about 48 scribes who use to write for him'. (17)[/size]

[size=-1]Abdullah Ibn 'Umar relates:... 'The Messenger of Allah (S) said: "Do not take the Qur'an on a journey with you, for I am afraid lest it should fall into the hands of the enemy"' (18)[/size]

[size=-1]During the Prophet's last pilgrimage, he gave a sermon in which he said: 'I have left with you something which if you will hold fast t it you will never fall into error - a plain indication, the Book of God (Quran) and the practice of his Prophet...' (19)[/size]

[size=-1]'Besides the official manuscripts of the Quran kept with the Prophet, many of his companions use to possess their own written copies of the revelation'. (20)[/size]

[size=-1]'A list of Companions of whom it is related that they had their own written collections included the following: Ibn Mas'ud, Ubay bin Ka'b, Ali, Ibn Abbas, Abu Musa, Hafsa, Anas bin Malik, Umar, Zaid bin Thabit, Ibn Al-Zubair, Abdullah ibn Amr, Aisha, Salim, Umm Salama, Ubaid bin Umar'. (21)[/size]

[size=-1]'The best known among these (Prophet's Scribes) are: Ibn Masud, Ubay bin Kab and Zaid bin Thabit'. (22)[/size]

[size=-1]'Aisha and Hafsa, the wives of the Prophet had their own scripts written after the Prophet had died'. (23)[/size]



[size=-1]Conclusion:[/size]

[size=-1]The complete Quran was written down in front of the Prophet by several of his scribes and the companions possess their own copies of the Quran in the Prophet's lifetime. However the written material of the Quran in the Prophet's possession were not bounded between the two covers in the form of a book, because the period of revelation of the Qur'an continued up until just a few days before the Prophet's death. The task of collecting the Qur'an as a book was therefore undertaken by Abu Bakr, the first successor to the Prophet.[/size]



[size=-1]Written Quran in First Generation:[/size]

[size=-1]At the battle of Yamama (633 CE), six months after the death of the Prophet, a number of Muslims, who had memorized the Quran were killed. Hence it was feared that unless a written official copy of the Quran were prepared, a large part of revelation might be lost.[/size]

[size=-1]Narrated Zaid bin Thabit al-Ansari, one of the scribes of the Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra (memorizers of the Quran, were killed). Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said: "Umar has come to me and said, the people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle) of Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be some casualties among the Qurra at other places, whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost, unless you collect it (in one manuscript, or book)...so Abu Bakr said to me (Zaid bin Thabit): You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness) and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript)'...So I started locating the Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who know it by heart)..." (24)[/size]

[size=-1]Now, a committee was formed to under take the task of collecting the written Quranic material in the form of a book. The committee was headed by Zaid bin Thabit, the original scribe of the Prophet, who was also a memorizer of the complete Quran.[/size]

[size=-1]'...Zaid bin Thabit had committed the entire Quran to memory...' (25)[/size]

[size=-1]The compilers in this committee, in examining written material submitted to them, insisted on very stringent criteria as a safeguard against any errors.[/size]

[size=-1]1. The material must have been originally written down in the presence of the Prophet; nothing written down later on the basis of memory alone was to be accepted. (26) 2. The material must be confirmed by two witnesses, that is to say, by two trustworthy persons testifying that they themselves had heard the Prophet recite the passage in question. (27)[/size]

[size=-1]'The manuscript on which the Qur'an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with Umar (the second successor), till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, 'Umar's daughter (and wife of the Prophet)'. (28)[/size]

[size=-1]This copy of the Quran, prepared by the committee of competent companions of the Prophet (which included Memorizers of the Quran) was unanimous approved by the whole Muslim world. If they committee would have made a error even of a single alphabet in transcribing the Quran, the Qurra (memorizers of the Quran) which totaled in the tens of hundreds would have caught it right away and correct it. This is exactly where the neat check and balance system of preservation of the Quran comes into play, but which is lacking for any other scripture besides the Quran.

[/size]
[/size]
 

_salam_

Member
continued
Official written copy by Uthman[size=-1][/size]



[size=-1]The Quran was originally revealed in Quraishi dialect of Arabic. But to facilitate the people who speak other dialects, in their understanding and comprehension, Allah revealed the Quran finally in seven dialects of Arabic. During the period of Caliph Uthman (second successor to the Prophet) differences in reading the Quran among the various tribes became obvious, due to the various dialectical recitations. Dispute was arising, with each tribe calling its recitation as the correct one. This alarmed Uthman, who made a official copy in the Quraishi dialect, the dialect in which the Quran was revealed to the Prophet and was memorized by his companions. Thus this compilation by Uthman's Committee is not a different version of the Quran (like the Biblical versions) but the same original revelation given to the Prophet by One God, Allah.[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham (Syria) and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Armenia and Azherbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their differences in the recitation of the Quran, so he said to Uthman, 'O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and Christians did before'. So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Quran so that we may compile the Quranic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you'. Hafsa sent it to Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and Abdur Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Quran, then write it in their (Quraishi) tongue'. They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied and ordered that all the other Quranic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt..." (29)[/size]



[size=-1]Again a very stringent criteria was set up by this Committee to prevent any alteration of the Revelation.[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]1. The earlier recension (Original copy prepared by Abu Bakr) was to serve as the principal basis of the new one. (30) 2. Any doubt that might be raised as to the phrasing of a particular passage in the written text was to be dispelled by summoning persons known to have learned the passage in question from the Prophet. (31) 3. Uthman himself was to supervise the work of the Council. (32)[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]When the final recension was completed, Uthman sent a copy of it to each of the major cities of Makka, Damascus, Kufa, Basra and Madina.[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]The action of Uthman to burn the other copies besides the final recension, though obviously drastic, was for the betterment and harmony of the whole community and was unanimously approved by the Companions of the Prophet.[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]Zaid ibn Thabit is reported to have said: "I saw the Companions of Muhammad (going about) saying, 'By God, Uthman has done well! By God, Uthman has done well!" (33)[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]Another esteemed Companion Musab ibn Sad ibn Abi Waqqas said: "I saw the people assemble in large number at Uthman's burning of the prescribed copies (of the Quran), and they were all pleased with his action; not a one spoke out against him". (34)[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]Ali ibn Abu Talib, the cousin of the Prophet and the fourth successor to the Prophet commented: "If I were in command in place of Uthman, I would have done the same". (35)[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]Of the copies made by Uthman, two still exist to our day. One is in the city of Tashkent, (Uzbekistan) and the second one is in Istanbul (Turkey). Below is a brief account of both these copies:[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]1. The copy which Uthman sent to Madina was reportedly removed by the Turkish authorities to Istanbul, from where it came to Berlin during World War I. The Treaty of Versailles, which concluded World War I, contains the following clause:[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]'Article 246: Within six months from the coming into force of the present Treaty, Germany will restore to His Majesty, King of Hedjaz, the original Koran of Caliph Othman, which was removed from Madina by the Turkish authorities and is stated to have been presented to the ex-Emperor William II". (36)[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]'This manuscript then reached Istanbul, but not Madina (Where it now resides)'. (37)[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]2. The second copy in existence is kept in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. 'It may be the Imam (master) manuscript or one of the other copies made at the time of Uthman'. (38)[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]It Came to Samarkand in 890 Hijra (1485) and remained there till 1868. Then it was taken to St.Petersburg by the Russians in 1869. It remained there till 1917. A Russian orientalist gave a detailed description of it, saying that many pages were damaged and some were missing. A facsimile, some 50 copies, of this mushaf (copy) was produced by S.Pisareff in 1905. A copy was sent to the Ottoman Sultan 'Abdul Hamid, to the Shah of Iran, to the Amir of Bukhara, to Afghanistan, to Fas and some important Muslim personalities. One copy is now in the Columbia University Library (U.S.A.). (39)[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]'The Manuscript was afterwards returned to its former place and reached Tashkent in 1924, where it has remained since'. (40)[/size]


[size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]Conclusion:[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]'Two of the copies of the Qur'an which were originally prepared in the time of Caliph Uthman, are still available to us today and their text and arrangement can be compared, by anyone who cares to do, with any other copy of the Quran, be it in print or handwritten, from any place or period of time. They will be found identical'. (41)[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]It can now be proclaimed, through the evidences provided above, with full conviction and certainty that the Prophet memorized the entire Quran, had it written down in front of him through his scribes, many of his companions memorized the entire revelation and in turn possess their own private copies for recitation and contemplation. This process of dual preservation of the Quran in written and in the memory was carried in each subsequent generation till our time, without any deletion, interpolation or corruption of this Divine Book.[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]Sir Williams Muir states, " There is otherwise every security, internal and external, that we possess the text which Muhammad himself gave forth and used". (42)[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]Sir William Muir continues, "There is probably no other book in the world which has remained twelve centuries (now fourteen) with so pure a text". (43)[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]This divine protection provided to the Quran, the Last Reveled Guide to Humanity, is proclaimed by One God in the Quran:[/size][size=-1][/size]

[size=-1]We* (Allah) have, without doubt, send down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)' (Quran - Chapter 15, Verse 9). *('We' is the plural of Majesty, and not the Christian plural of trinity)[/size][size=-1][/size] [size=-1]Compare this divine and historical preservation of the Quran with any literature, be it religious or secular and it becomes evident that none possess similar miraculous protection. And as states earlier, a belief is as authentic as the authenticity of its scripture. And if any scripture is not preserved, how can we be certain that the belief arising out of this scripture is divine or man made, and if we are not sure about the belief itself, then our salvation in the hereafter would be jeopardized. Thus this above evidence for the protection of the Quran from any corruption is a strong hint about its divine origin. We request all open hearted persons to read, understand and live the Quran, the 'Manual for Mankind'.[/size]
 

andddd

Member
OUCHHH !! I THINK WE FOUND PROOF THAT THE QURAN HAS NOT CHANGED SINCE THE PROPHET (p) died! so as I said in another conversation..The Quran hasnt changed..!
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
_salam_ said:
Higher critism has been done with the Qur'an since very early on in Islam. The thing is that some orientalist don't want to face the facts that we have and like to take such events as the burning done by Uthman and make it into something it's not. Here is a very very brief article about the compilation of the Qur'an.

continued below.

After having read that, I don' think you understood my question.

Higher Criticism is the art of taking mansucripts, translations, and their quotations, and comparing the varients through the science that has come up around it to check whether it has been changed. Higher criticism is only a couple of hundred years old as a science. It could not have existed in the time of Muhammed.

As an example, I can list many of the NT manuscripts, explain how they interrelate, and list readings. After doing that, I can explain how the variants cropped up and the means of distinguishing them. It's a science used on the Bible, Plato, and practically any other ancient book. If you want an example of what I want, it would be like Kurt Aland's The Text of the New Testament an Introduction to the Critical Editions and to the Theory and Practice of Modern Textual Criticism, and which I could find in a university as an accepted text if I so chose.

On the article, rather than prove that it hasn't changed, has instead given me more room to doubt that it has been transmitted faithfully. The Uthman in the quote that started this question for me is mentioned here. He published his own version, which he compiled that he said represented the original. He then ordered all copies that contradicted his to be burned. The differences aren't simply in dialects if some Hadiths contain whole passages that aren't present in today's copies. That doesn't arise as a result of differences in dialect.

What shocks me is that this looks to be the same sort of thing that people like to pass off on the Emperor Constantine: a governing power gets involved in a religion, burns opposing books, and so on. The difference here is that there wasn't a continued dispute after the fact, and the widespread burning of opposing versions is admitted by proponents and documented (something I've yet to see documented for Nicea).

I coudl make similar comments on the written/oral combination mentioned, but I would like to be pointed to some higher criticism on the matter (and in the future, just post a link to the article and some excerpts ;)). None of this was higher criticism...
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
andddd said:
OUCHHH !! I THINK WE FOUND PROOF THAT THE QURAN HAS NOT CHANGED SINCE THE PROPHET (p) died! so as I said in another conversation..The Quran hasnt changed..!

No, it has not been proven. In fact, the article causes me more doubt than I had. I've been taught and learned about the science of textual criticism, and while I didn't accept Islam, it really wasn't a big deal for me to just grant it hasn't changed beyond the normal changes in hand-copying books and move on. It wasn't that important to me.

I'm beginning to revise that view, and I'm going to collect scholarly resources as soon as I get back to TX to read on the matter. I'm seeing tell-tale signs that exactly that happened, especially considering the nature of a unified authority under a Caliph. With the burning of books, missing passages, I need to get some scholarly resources, not some apologetic ones.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
No*s,

Doesn`t one of the 4 original copies of the Koran still exist somewhere?

Study of those texts against modern translations should easily clear up your question.
If I understand your question correctly.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
linwood said:
No*s,

Doesn`t one of the 4 original copies of the Koran still exist somewhere?

Study of those texts against modern translations should easily clear up your question.
If I understand your question correctly.

That's not the impression I got from his article. The only original still extant is Uthman's edition, unless the article here overlooked its existence. I'm simply wanting some text-critical information on its transmission, because the stability of the text was questioned in passing in an article on higher criticism (granted, not the most technical).

As a result, I simply want some modern scholarship. I'll look it up when I get to TX. The article posted here only raised some more flags, so I'll be happy to read something that would be accepted amongst academia :).
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
No*s,

You have raised a very important question that I have often pondered concerning the Koran. Yes, if the Koran was copied by hand, there must be copy errors and additions somewhere in the text, despite whatever rules or care was taken to be as precise as possible, which is why we compare ancient copies to find the best plausible whole. It appears that your question remains unanswered above. I look forward to reading more concerning this issue.

Thanks,
Angellous
 

Abrar

New Member
The Quran was revealed by the Archangel Gabriel through Mohammad(PBUH) over a period of 23 years.All the verses weren't put down on the same day.A verse was first revealed to him.It was discussed why this verse has to be written.then it was memorised and then it was put down by his followers.In this way all the verses were put down.

the stoning of adultery:

A follower came to Mohammad(PBUH) and said to him to write down the verse of stoning for adulterates.The Prophet refused as he was an ummi.The follower thought he was told to ommit the verse.
 

almifkhar

Active Member
i was searching around on the web for god knows what one night and i came across this article. what had happened is that there was a mosque in sanaa yemen that was real old and starting to fall apart, so the people came up with some money to hire some guys in to fix it up. in the dome of the mosque, the workers stumbbled across hundreds of qurans that were like 400 years old (don't quote me on how old they were for sure i do know that they were real real old), so they called in a historian who was a yemeni national working in some university in germany. this guy and his buddy (a german phd. who was a professer of arabic and islamic stuff at the same university) got the qurans and took them back to germany. what they found is that these qurans are a little different than modern ones. they are still to my knowledge studying them but did make it a point to say that they were different. thinking back now, i think i was searching for sites studying yemen (my husbands homeland)
 

croak

Trickster
'Uthman was one of the people who had memorized the Qur'an by heart. He, and other memorizers, sought one universal Qur'an. They each would recite the verse, and see if everyone agreed with it. If someone didn't, he'd acknowledge he'd memorized wrong and such. Other Qur'ans may have been written incorrectly, or maybe someone added a few notes and other people thought they were actual verses, rather than notes. That's my brief explanation.

Higher Criticism is the art of taking mansucripts, translations, and their quotations, and comparing the varients through the science that has come up around it to check whether it has been changed.
These people were re-writing the Qur'an, based on memory, and destroying all other versions. They wanted the true version, and since they'd memorized it, they didn't need other copies.

'Uthaman was one of the Companions of the Prophet Muhammed (saas). So, naturally, he'd heard it directly from him. So did most other people. When you hear something directly, it tends to stay in your mind, when it is of profound importance.
 

Radar

Active Member
There is no original quran, or not one that the location is known to anyone. There aren't even the papers which Mohammed's wrote the verses on. Mohammed was illiterate so he could not read or write so he would not be able to verify if what was written down was what he said. Also the quran that is being read today has vowing or dotting so it could be read, old arabic did not have that so many of the letters looked the same. So who really knows what the original stated and who knows that nothing was ever changed. It is just something muslims believe and cannot provide any proof that it was never changed.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Radar said:
There is no original quran, or not one that the location is known to anyone. There aren't even the papers which Mohammed's wrote the verses on. Mohammed was illiterate so he could not read or write so he would not be able to verify if what was written down was what he said. Also the quran that is being read today has vowing or dotting so it could be read, old arabic did not have that so many of the letters looked the same. So who really knows what the original stated and who knows that nothing was ever changed. It is just something muslims believe and cannot provide any proof that it was never changed.
Dear Radar,

You started a whole new thread called Original Quran and you were asking the SAME question then me and another brother answered you by providing many original copies for the same Quran with pictures in islamic countries and non-islamic countries too and you just ignored it so go back to YOUR own thread and read it again because i THINK you didn't read our response in YOUR thread about the SAME thing.

check it here please in this link below:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21295
 

Radar

Active Member
No there was no answer. The original is not in Tukey, that was false statement. So just as before what you have written adds nothing to this thread.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I guess you weren't wearing your glasses while you were reading at that thread so i'll simply repeat it here for you.

The fact that the Quran in its present form is more than thousand years old and hasn't changed since then is apparently undisputed even among very critical non-Muslim historians.

Archaeologists, experts of Oriental Studies and scholars of other disciplines seem to agree to the fact that the Quran hasn't changed for more than a 1000 years (see The Atlantic Monthly; January 1999; What is the Koran? Volume 283, No 1; pages 43-56).

Furthermore, there are very old manuscripts from the early Middle Ages (800 AD.) exhibited in the British Museum and have been in British possession for centuries (The Quran, M.Lings and Y.H.Safadi, London, 1976). One copy in the Egyptian National Museum written on gazelle skin has been dated back to 688 AD, 58 years after Mohammed and all these old findings are still the same versions as the ones that are being currently distributed among Muslims. This is nothing unusual as such since some Bibles are older than that. You can see an image of a manuscript of 1200 years age exhibited during a ceremony in Kashmir.

and i don't know how to post a picture in here :( so pleae check the website to see it.

http://www.ummah.com/ifsa/pages/sec...uthenticity.htm

and brother Mujahid Mohammed added also one more source for the original Quran saying:

Mujahid Mohammed said:
The original is in Istanbul Turkey in the original language of Arabic it has the blood of Uthman the 3rd Calipha on its pages when he was assasinated. But it is the same Quran that all muslims use. I hope this helps insha Allah.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
No*s said:
I was googling for sources on "higher criticism," which is something most people on here are probably aware I enjoy. However, in this page I ran across a very interesting quote that brought this subject to light:



Several times on this list I've read the claim that the Quran hasn't been changed. I read here citation of evidence for the opposite. So, I must ask, where are the text critics and other scholars of higher criticism in Islam? They would ferret this sort of thing out.
They are around in the accredited Islamic universities in Cairo, Mecca, Medina and other Islamic countries. As far as Islamic scholars who are critics at these places you never hear from them because maybe there are no recognised Islamic scholars who refute the Qur'an there may be some self proclaimed scholars of Islam who make that claim but again they are SELF PROCLAIMED.

Are the oldest manuscripts and their contents available?
Yes it is located in Istanbul Turkey. The blood of Uthman is still on the pages.

I find it rather incredulous that a book was copied by hand without variation creeping in. It's the nature of the beast. Remember, simply saying "it has no changes" no more makes your claim true than it does the KJV-Onlyist who insists the KJV represents the originals perfectly.[/QUOTE]The reason it has had no changes is because of what we as muslims call the ABJAB. Each arabic letter has a number value ascibed to it so it you were to take out or alter one letter it would throw off the mathmatical value of the words given that is how we know it has never been changed. Second in response to what Uthman did. He compiled all the known leaflets and copies and put them into book form. Now in Arabia there are many different dialects of Arabic so when these different tribes were writing copies of the Qur'an he had compiled they were writing it in the dialect of their people so sometimes the pronunciation of words may have been changed. So in order to make sure that it could not be corrupted in terms of pronunciation he ordered that no dialectical Qur'an would be accepted EXCEPT THE DIALECT OF THE PROPHET. His dialect was among the people of Quraish this is the dialect that was used only because we are commanded to do everything our beloved prophet did. That includes reciting the Qur'an. that is why the Qur'an he gathered were not accepted and destroyed it was to preserve the original dialect and language the Qur'an was revealed in. The words were never changed but the writing of language was perfected to keep it in the original language of the Prophet(saw). Also you must remember Uthman was one of the companions of the prophet and was with him throughout his prophethood and was the calipha or leader of the muslim people which is the one who has the most knowledge of Quran and the teachings of the prophet not to mention all the companions were hafiz. I hope this helps
 
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