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Justification

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
I don't think all of Scripture teaches Universalism. Could you please share when you think someone becomes an adopted child of God?
Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
Then there is Gal 4:5-6 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father
 

Fish-Hunter

Rejoice in the Lord!
Then there is Gal 4:5-6 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father

Thanks for sharing the Bibilical truth which refutes Universalism. Here is another biblical passage that refutes Universalism. I think Christians throughout redemptive history have understood that faith in Jesus Christ is a requirement to be adopted into the faimly of God. The "us" that Paul is speaking about is reserved for believers in Christ only.

Ephesians 1

1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful [1] in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee [4] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, [5] to the praise of his glory.

Thanksgiving and Prayer

15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love [6] toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Thanks for sharing the Bibilical truth which refutes Universalism. Here is another biblical passage that refutes Universalism.
I don't think those passages say what you think they do. Simply saying "you have received a gift" does not imply that nobody else has received a gift.

I think Christians throughout redemptive history have understood that faith in Jesus Christ is a requirement to be adopted into the faimly of God.
No, I think generally, it's only the Sola Fide Protestants who do that, and I'm fairly certain they're in the minority.

The "us" that Paul is speaking about is reserved for believers in Christ only.

Are you familiar with the term eisegesis?
 

Fish-Hunter

Rejoice in the Lord!
I don't think those passages say what you think they do. Simply saying "you have received a gift" does not imply that nobody else has received a gift.


No, I think generally, it's only the Sola Fide Protestants who do that, and I'm fairly certain they're in the minority.



Are you familiar with the term eisegesis?

Are you saying Roman Catholic Christians and Eastern Orthodox Christians teach Uinversalism? LOL!!!!!
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Are you saying Roman Catholic Christians and Eastern Orthodox Christians teach Uinversalism? LOL!!!!!
No, I'm saying that the statement you made earlier is incorrect:

I think Christians throughout redemptive history have understood that faith in Jesus Christ is a requirement to be adopted into the faimly of God.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Are you saying Roman Catholic Christians and Eastern Orthodox Christians teach Uinversalism? LOL!!!!!

The Eastern Church confesses that it doesn't know.

There is great wisdom in their confession "We know where God is, but we do not know where God is not."
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Hermeneutical debates should be moot and meaningless if you reject the Bible to be the Word of God.

On the contrary, the only thing that is worthless is evangelical Christianity that depends on the Bible "as the Word of God".
 

Fish-Hunter

Rejoice in the Lord!
If we have some scripture that refutes universalism and some that refutes exclusivism, how do you conclude that your interpretation must be the right one?

Scripture teaches both exclusivism and universalism. God will save sinners from all tongue, tribes, and nations to the praise of His glorious grace. But we know that only that those who believe in Christ from within all tongue, tribe, and nations will be saved, reconciled to God, adopted as sons, and will be co-inheritors with Christ. So, why do you have so much interest in the Holy Bible?
 

Fish-Hunter

Rejoice in the Lord!
On the contrary, the only thing that is worthless is evangelical Christianity that depends on the Bible "as the Word of God".

You must be a professing Christian who rejects the Holy Bible to be the Word of God. Are you one of those Jesus Seminar guys? You must love the Jesus that is not revealed in the Bible.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'm very curious, if you and Wandered Off do not believe the Bible to be the Word of God, then what does it matter what the Bible reveals? Hermeneutical debates should be moot and meaningless if you reject the Bible to be the Word of God.
The Bible has had a huge and lasting impact on the world, and it still forms the basis for the beliefs and actions of a significant proportion of people today, including actions that will have a direct effect on me and on things that I care about. I personally think that it's vital to read the Bible and know what it says.

On top of that, I just find it interesting. Like I've said before, in the same way that you don't have to be a Medieval European to study Medieval Europe, you don't have to be a Christian to study Christianity.
 

Fish-Hunter

Rejoice in the Lord!
The Bible has had a huge and lasting impact on the world, and it still forms the basis for the beliefs and actions of a significant proportion of people today, including actions that will have a direct effect on me and on things that I care about. I personally think that it's vital to read the Bible and know what it says.

On top of that, I just find it interesting. Like I've said before, in the same way that you don't have to be a Medieval European to study Medieval Europe, you don't have to be a Christian to study Christianity.

Thanks for the answer. However, you need to know that biblical truth is concealed until it is revealed. Without being born from above, you will not be able to understand according to the Scriptures.

Luke 9:45

But they did not understand this saying, and it was concealed from them, so that they might not perceive it. And they were afraid to ask him about this saying.

Luke 10:21
In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.


Wisdom from the Spirit

6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. [3]

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Cor 2
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
You must be a professing Christian who rejects the Holy Bible to be the Word of God. Are you one of those Jesus Seminar guys? You must love the Jesus that is not revealed in the Bible.

On the contrary, I have not been very impressed by the Jesus Seminar.

Just to highlight the spectacular failure of evangelical Christians who fight amongst themselves about how conservative they are... I found out today that there are two departments of pastoral care at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary - one that uses pseudo-psychology and one that uses biblical misinterpretation. One can flip a coin to see which is more inhuman, unethical, and destructive.

Dr. Duke has said that the folks at SWBTS are like a broken watch - they are right two times a day. I told him that he was being superlatively generous then, and now I am proven right.
 

Fish-Hunter

Rejoice in the Lord!
Thanks for your answer.I spent many of my formative years believing and studying it. I find discussing it with people to be challenging and entertaining, and doing that keeps me out of gangs and stuff. :D

Reading and meditating on the all time best seller could be dangerous as an Athesist. I've always considered that those who have a continued interest in the Word of God have signs of being an elect of God. I believe if someone is chosen before the foundation of the world to believe, that it is impossible to run from God. It seems you are trying to run from the Faith of your youth. How well is that coming along? Are you enjoying your life as a non-believer?


Rom 10
11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? [3] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
 
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Fish-Hunter

Rejoice in the Lord!
On the contrary, I have not been very impressed by the Jesus Seminar.

Just to highlight the spectacular failure of evangelical Christians who fight amongst themselves about how conservative they are... I found out today that there are two departments of pastoral care at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary - one that uses pseudo-psychology and one that uses biblical misinterpretation. One can flip a coin to see which is more inhuman, unethical, and destructive.

Dr. Duke has said that the folks at SWBTS are like a broken watch - they are right two times a day. I told him that he was being superlatively generous then, and now I am proven right.

There has always been and will always be a battle for the truth (Biblical Christanity) and wisdom from the world (liberal Christianity or Christian humanism). If you leave the Scriptures, the world will pull you into the wisdom of the world. The flesh is contrary to the Spirit, right?

Rom 8
Life in the Spirit

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [1] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you [2] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, [3] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 

Wandered Off

Sporadic Driveby Member
Reading and meditating on the all time best seller could be dangerous as an Athesist.
These days, I suspect reading the Bible makes more people into atheists than the other way around.

Given the fun Calvinistic views you promote here, it doesn't matter what I do anyway, because I was permanently on one of the two lists already, and there isn't squat I can do about it. :rainbow1:
 

Fish-Hunter

Rejoice in the Lord!
These days, I suspect reading the Bible makes more people into atheists than the other way around.

Given the fun Calvinistic views you promote here, it doesn't matter what I do anyway, because I was permanently on one of the two lists already, and there isn't squat I can do about it. :rainbow1:

Well, if you keep discussing the Scriptures, then we will know for sure. The Elect will come to Christ.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
 
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