Justification

Scott1 said:

He does not realize much at all .... seems to think he can offer up his Reformed tradition opinions but that I'm not "allowed" to use support from the early Church that shows how wrong his thinking is about how we are justified.

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What's worse is that he seems to think that his beliefs are based on the bible alone rather than on the bible as interpreted by the Reformed tradition. Nobody, absolutely nobody, has an interpretation of the bible that doesn't resort to some tradition or other. The question isn't whether the competing ideologies are biblical. The question is whether either of them make more or less sense of the biblical tradition.

Justification means that a person is percieved by God 'just as if ' they hyad never sinned.

We cannot make this assumption unless we believe it. We are saved by grace, which means we did not deserve it, but we had faith that it would be possible for us to be saved through the work of Jesus chirst, and not our own works.

Predestination, implies that we had this faith before Jesus was crucified. We had faith in him to save us.

Heneni said:

Justification means that a person is percieved by God 'just as if ' they hyad never sinned.

We cannot make this assumption unless we believe it. We are saved by grace, which means we did not deserve it, but we had faith that it would be possible for us to be saved through the work of Jesus chirst, and not our own works.

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I'm afraid I don't understand. Which assumption can't we make unless we believe what?

Also, the content of what we must believed to be saved does not include anything about soteriology (how we are saved). We must confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead (Ro 10:9). End of discussion.

Predestination, implies that we had this faith before Jesus was crucified. We had faith in him to save us.

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It implies no such thing.

Dunemeister said:

What's worse is that he seems to think that his beliefs are based on the bible alone rather than on the bible as interpreted by the Reformed tradition. Nobody, absolutely nobody, has an interpretation of the bible that doesn't resort to some tradition or other. The question isn't whether the competing ideologies are biblical. The question is whether either of them make more or less sense of the biblical tradition.

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That's a good point. What makes the Reformed Tradition more vaild than the Roman Catholic Tradition. Within a biblical debate, the Reformed traditon is based on sola scriptura. And the Roman Catholic Tradition is based on Scripture (+) sacred tradition. Let's ignore all tradition including Reformed Tradition and search the Scriptures together. Justification is a doctrine that is found throughout the Pauline epistles, but the book of Romans is the most doctrinal in regards to the gospel and justification. Here is Romans 3 and 4. I think a study of justification will lead to the concept of imputation (credited, counted) of the righteousness of Christ to our account (forensic) as the basis of our justification before God. Please let me know why you think this is correct or incorrect according to the Scriptures. Let's see if Martin Luther was right or wrong in regards to the biblical doctrine of justification. Remember, this is a debate within the biblical debate section. It is a subcatgory of the Scripture section. If you want to discuss justification outside the Scriptures, you can always go to a Catholic or LDS section.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith - Rom 3 and 4

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Abraham Justified by Faith

4:1 What then shall we say was gained by [4] Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted (imputed) to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in [5] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith

13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. 20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Quote: Fish-Hunter
Justification used by Paul is used as a forensic (legal) application and meaning (imputation). Please study Romans chapter 3 and 4 so we can continue this Bibilcal debate.

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Scott1 said:

...but you won't.

Mine too.

Please show me the verse where the term " forensic (legal) application" is used.

Remember, this is a Biblical debate... I don't want to hear any of your extra-biblical commentary.

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Imputation is used in the KJV. This same forensic application is used in the Old Testament too in regards to Abraham.

Romans 4 - KJV

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Hi dunemeister!

So quick to end the discussion hey?

To be saved you need faith. Faith is to hope for something you have not yet seen or recieved. Hence before Jesus did his awesome work on the cross you had to have faith in him, which means you existed 'spiritually' before any of that happened.

When you beleive, you are justified, and when you are justified, it is imputed to you as righetousness.

When you confess with you mouth that Jesus is your saviour, it means that you beleive that he accomplished that which you believed Him to do. Save you.

Hence God predestined those who put their faith in Jesus to save them, to be saved.

Heneni said:

Hi dunemeister!

So quick to end the discussion hey?

To be saved you need faith. Faith is to hope for something you have not yet seen or recieved. Hence before Jesus did his awesome work on the cross you had to have faith in him, which means you existed 'spiritually' before any of that happened.

When you beleive, you are justified, and when you are justified, it is imputed to you as righetousness.

When you confess with you mouth that Jesus is your saviour, it means that you beleive that he accomplished that which you believed Him to do. Save you.

Hence God predestined those who put their faith in Jesus to save them, to be saved.

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Thanks for sharing; I have always enjoyed your postings!

Fish-Hunter said:

Imputation is used in the KJV. This same forensic application is used in the Old Testament too in regards to Abraham.

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So you can't provide an example.... fair enough.

Justification is an Inner Change of Person (Infusion), Not Just a Declaration by God (Imputation)
Psalm 51:1-2 -- O God, blot out my transgressions, wash me thoroughly from my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin. This cleansing requires an inner change of heart. Many Protestants believe that we are so depraved that God only covers our sins up by declaring us righteous (imputing Christ's righteousness to us). The Catholic (and Scriptural view), however, is that God is powerful enough to blot out our sins and remove them. The view that God just declares us righteous by "covering us up," denigrates the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives, who continues the work of Christ through His work of justification and sanctification (infusing His grace into souls and changing the inner person).
Psalm 51:7-9 -- purge me and I shall be clean, wash me whiter than snow, fill me with joy, blot out my iniquities. We are purged and filled up internally, not just covered up externally.
Psalm 51:10 -- create in me a clean heart, oh God, and put a new and right spirit within me (not "cover" me). God is so powerful that He brings about a real metamorphosis in ourselves.
Isaiah 1:18 -- though my sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though red like crimson, they shall be like wool.
Isaiah 43:25 -- I am He who blots out your transgressions and forgets your sins. God does not cover our sins up. He blots them out by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 44:22 -- I have swept away your transgressions like a cloud, and your sin like mist. This is a real elimination of sin, not a covering up of sin.
Isaiah 64:5 -- thou meetest him that joyfully works righteousness. This means righteousness is not just imputed to us. We can actually do works of righteousness by God's grace.
Ezek 36:26-27 -- a new heart I will give you and a new spirit I will put within you. These are interior changes effected by God.
Ezek 37:23 -- the Lord will save His people from all their backslidings in which they have sinned, and He will cleanse them (not cover them).
Matt 5:3,5,8 -- blessed are the poor in spirit, the meek, and the pure of heart. These are internal dispositions, not just an external reality.
Matt 5:6; Luke 6:21 -- those who hunger for righteousness "may be filled." It is an inner change, not snow covering up a dunghill (Luther's analogy).
Matt 5:20; Luke 1:6; Acts 10:35 -- here are more examples of "doing" righteousness, not just being "imputed" external righteousness. We are not just defendants in a courtroom who have been exonerated. We are children of God endowed with the power of the Holy Spirit by whose grace we can become righteous.
Matt 5:28 -- Jesus teaches that just looking lustfully at a woman is adultery. But avoiding this involves an inner change, a response to God's grace.
Matt 6:1 -- beware of practicing righteousness before men. We are not just declared righteous; we can practice righteousness as well.
Matt. 8:3 -- Jesus cleanses the man's leprosy. Jesus' power reaches both the external and internal conditions of human beings. See also Matt 11:5.
Matt 15:18; Mark 7:15 -- Jesus teaches the interior disposition is what defiles man. Thus, God's infusion of grace changes us interiorly.
Matt 23:25-28 -- the Pharisees appeared outwardly righteous to men, but inside they were filled with hypocrisy. God desires and helps us effect an inner change of heart. He doesn't just declare that we are righteous.
Luke 11:39-40 -- the Pharisees cleansed the outside of the cup but inside they were full of wickedness. God demands an internal change and gives us the grace to make that change.
John 1:29 -- Jesus the Lamb of God literally takes away the sin of the world. He does not just cover up the sins of the world.
Acts 3:19 -- repent, that your sins may be "blotted" out. The word blotted comes from the Greek word "exalipho" which means an actual wiping away or removal, not a covering up.
Acts 22:16; 1 Cor 6:11 -- again, the phrase "wash away" is from the word "apolouo" which mean a literal removal or an infusion of cleansing, not an imputation or covering.
Rom 4:3 -- it was "credited" to him as righteousness. The word "credited" comes from the Greek word "elogisthe" which means a book entry. God records what there actually is; He does not make a phony entry on the books.
Rom 5:17 -- we do not receive Christ's personal level of righteousness (which is impossible), but we are made righteous on His account by God's mercy and the Lord's work on the cross. The word "made" in Greek is "katestathesan" which refers to a real, actual, ontological change in the person's soul.
Rom 5:19 -- through "Adam/Christ" we were made "sinners/righteous." This means that there is not just a relational change in status, but an objective change in nature. We are not just declared righteous, but are actually made righteous. God does not declare something without making it so. For example, in Gen 1:3, God declares that there is light, and there is light. The declaration is followed by the reality.
2 Cor 3:18 -- Paul says that we are being changed into the Lord's likeness from one degree of glory to another, by the power of the Spirit. This shows that justification is ongoing, and changes in degrees throughout one's life, based upon one's obedience of faith.
2 Cor 4:16 -- though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed every day. Justification does not happen all at once, and is not an external declaration. Justification happens every day, and concerns our inner nature.
2 Cor 5:17 -- Paul says that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. He is not just the old creation that is covered up. The old has passed away, and behold, the new has come.
2 Cor 7:1 -- Paul says that we must cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God. Holiness deals with being, what is, because its source is God, who is. It does not deal with what appears to be.
2 Cor 13:5 -- do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you. This indwelling of Christ brings about an internal transformation to those who cooperate with His grace.
Gal 6:15 -- for neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Eph 4:22-24 -- putting off the old nature for the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness, involves an internal change. Our lives are actually transformed. This is required in order for us to become adopted sons (not just defendants acquitted in a courtroom).
Phil 2:13 -- God is at work "in you." God is so powerful, he can actually transform us by working in us. He is not just outside us making declarations about us.
Col 3:10 -- we have put on the new nature, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its Creator. We are new, and this newness is a continual process of renewal throughout our lives.
Titus 3:5 -- justification is a generation of supernatural life in a former sinner. This means a real inner change or infusion, not just donning an outer cloak.
1 John 1:7,9 -- Jesus will "cleanse" us from sin and unrighteousness. The word cleanse comes from the Greek word "katharizo" which means an actual "infused" cleansing, not an "imputed" pretend cleansing.
1 John 3:7,10 -- righteousness may be obtained by "doing." One who practices righteousness is righteous. God is not just declaring the person righteousness.
2 Peter 1:4 -- we are actually made righteous because God is the eternal family, and we partake of this divine nature as children. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. His grace is powerful enough to change us interiorly.
1 Cor. 3:9 -- this is because we are His fellow workers. God is not threatened by the grace and glory He gives His children!
Rev 19:8 -- when we are clothed in fine linen in heaven, the fine linen is "our righteous acts." It is our own righteousness, from the work and mercy of Jesus Christ.
Rev 22:11-12 -- he who is righteous [justified], let him be righteous [justified] still [more]; he who is holy, let him be holy still....and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Some Examples of Justification as Ongoing (not a one-time event)
2 Cor 4:16 -- though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed "every day." This not only proves that justification is internal (not legal and external), but that it is also ongoing (it's not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior). Our inner nature is being renewed every day as we persevere in faith, hope and love.
John 3:16 -- justification is ongoing, not a one-time event. God so loved (past) the world, that He gave (past) His only Son, that whoever believes (ongoing) in Him may have eternal life. The word "believes" is "pisteuo" in Greek which necessarily includes obedience throughout one's life. This is proved by 1 Peter 2:7-8 which also uses "pisteuo" (to obey) and "apitheo" (to disobey). The same word "pisteuo" is used in many other verses about "believing in Christ" such as John 3:36; 5:24; Rom 4:24; 10:9-10; cf. Rom 1:5,16; 6:17; 16:26; 1 John 5:13 (often used by Protestants to support their "faith alone" theology). To "believe" means to "obey" Jesus as Lord throughout one's life; it is not a one-time acceptance of Jesus as Savior.
Heb 5:9 -- Paul also confirms this by writing that Jesus became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him. Here are some examples of justification as an on-going process, and not a one-time event:
Gen 12:1-4 -- Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Abram is justified by his faith in God. Heb 11:8-10 confirms Abraham's justification occurred here, before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen 12, not Gen 15. Abraham's justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness.
Gen 14:19, 22-23 -- Abram is also justified here, by being blessed by the priest-king Melchizedek. Melchizedek calls Abram blessed and Abram gives him a tenth of everything.
Gen 15:6 -- Abram is further justified here, as God promises him that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Because the Scripture says, "He believed the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness," Protestants often say this was Abram's initial justification, and cite Rom 4:2 to prove Abram was justified by his faith. Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves.
Gen 22:1-18 -- Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?" James then confirms this by writing, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness" (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works.
1 Sam 13:14 -- David is justified here, as God describes him as "a man after his own heart." No one in Scripture is described like this. Acts 13:22 confirms David's justification before God.
1 Sam 16:13 -- David is also justified here. "The Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward."
1 Sam 17:37-54 -- David is further justified here, as he responds to God's grace and God delivers him from the hand of Goliath the Philistine.
2 Sam 6:9,14 -- David is further justified here, as he expresses a fear for the Lord in the presence of His ark, and dances before the ark of the Lord with all his might.
2 Sam 12:7-15 -- however, after David's on-going justification before God, David falls out of justification by committing adultery with Bathsheba and slaying Uriah the Hittite. David still had faith in God, but he lost his justification because of his evil works.
Psalm 32:1-2; Rom 4:7-8; cf. 51:2,7-10,17 -- David repents of his sin and writes these beautiful psalms about God's mercy and forgiveness. Of himself, he writes, "Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered up." David is re-justified before God. This proves that we can be justified before God, then lose our justification, and then be re-justified through repentance and reconciliation with God.
Matt 16:18-19 -- Jesus blesses Simon for receiving a Revelation from God, changes his name to Peter, and gives him the keys to the kingdom of heaven. In John 6:68-69, Peter, justified before God, declares that Jesus has the words of eternal life. In Luke 22:31-32, Jesus prays for Peter that his faith may not fail and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles. In these and many other examples, Peter is justified before God.
Matt 26:75; Mark 14:72; John 18:17, 25-27 -- Peter denies he knows Jesus and loses his justification before God.
John 21:15-17 -- Peter is re-justified before God after he negates his three-fold denial of Jesus with a three-fold confirmation of his love for him. Jesus then charges Peter to feed the Lord's sheep. Peter was justified, loses his justification, and regains it again through repentance and love.
Luke 15:24,32 -- the prodigal son was dead, and now is alive again; he was lost and now is found. The prodigal son regained his father's favor through repentance (v. 18-19,21). When we ask our Father for forgiveness, we too will regain His favor and be justified.
Acts 9:1-17 -- Protestants would say that Paul is instantly justified here, when he encounters Christ, obeys His command to enter the city, and is moved by the Holy Spirit. They would say that Paul's sins are now covered up and Christ's righteousness is imputed to him.
Acts 9:18; 22:16 -- then why does Ananias command St. Paul (who was directly chosen by Christ) to stand up and be baptized and "wash away his sins?" Because justification, as the Church has taught for 2,000 years, is ongoing. It is not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. Justification is freely given by God through faith, hope, love and the sacraments of the Church (here, Baptism).
Rev 22:11-22 -- he who is righteous [justified], let him be righteous [justified] still [more]; he who is holy, let him be holy still....and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Wow... these Biblical debates are easy.

Scott1 said:

Some Examples of Justification as Ongoing (not a one-time event)


Wow... these Biblical debates are easy.

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As agreed on the other forum site, we will permanently put each other on ignore.

Heneni said:

Hi dunemeister!

So quick to end the discussion hey?

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Not at all.

To be saved you need faith. Faith is to hope for something you have not yet seen or recieved. Hence before Jesus did his awesome work on the cross you had to have faith in him, which means you existed 'spiritually' before any of that happened.

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Not at all. Before Jesus, I didn't exist. But his work is efficacious for all who believed on him then or believed on him since.

When you beleive, you are justified, and when you are justified, it is imputed to you as righetousness.

When you confess with you mouth that Jesus is your saviour, it means that you beleive that he accomplished that which you believed Him to do. Save you.

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You've got the confession wrong. We must believe he's "lord". That notion includes his role as savior but is larger than that. It also doesn't mean that we have to believe a complex soteriology about how we're saved. It only means that we have to believe Jesus is Lord. Knowing the complex relationship (and it IS complex) between that confession and his work on the cross is NOT NECESSARY to salvation.

Hence God predestined those who put their faith in Jesus to save them, to be saved.

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Sorry. You need to get back to Calvin to understand his version of predestination.

Dunemeister said:

Not at all.



Not at all. Before Jesus, I didn't exist. But his work is efficacious for all who believed on him then or believed on him since.



You've got the confession wrong. We must believe he's "lord". That notion includes his role as savior but is larger than that. It also doesn't mean that we have to believe a complex soteriology about how we're saved. It only means that we have to believe Jesus is Lord. Knowing the complex relationship (and it IS complex) between that confession and his work on the cross is NOT NECESSARY to salvation.



Sorry. You need to get back to Calvin to understand his version of predestination.

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Hi Dunemeister,

How are things going with you? The last time we discussed, I believe you were considering exploring Roman Catholicism. I'm not sure what predestination has to do with justification with the exception of Romans 8. I believe you used to be Anglican, right? What does the Anglican Church teach in regards to justification? I believe Martin Luther taught on predestination with greater force than John Calvin.

Here is a porton of Romans 8

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God's Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36

Is this accurate in regards to the Anglican Church?

The Anglican Communion considers itself to be part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and to be both Catholic and Reformed. For some adherents it represents a non-papal Catholicism, for others a form of Protestantism though without a dominant guiding figure such as Luther, Knox, Calvin, Zwingli or Wesley.[4] For others, their self-identity represents some combination of the two. The communion encompasses a wide spectrum of belief and practice including evangelical, liberal, and catholic

Anglican Communion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Anglican Church holds to 39 Articles of Faith. Predestination is treated in the 17th:

39 Articles said:

XVII. Of Predestination and Election.

Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God, be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.

As the godly consideration of Predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh, and their earthly members, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal Salvation to be enjoyed through Christ as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: So, for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God's Predestination, is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the Devil doth thrust them either into desperation, or into wretchlessness of most unclean living, no less perilous than desperation.

Furthermore, we must receive God's promises in such wise, as they be generally set forth to us in Holy Scripture: and, in our doings, that Will of God is to be followed, which we have expressly declared unto us in the Word of God.

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I leave it for homework to determine how closely this formulation is consistent with scripture or with reformed or Roman Catholic formulations.

Fish-Hunter said:

As agreed on the other forum site, we will permanently put each other on ignore.

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I didn't agree to that.... you just show your inability to support your beliefs, contrary to your constant boasting.

Dunemeister said:

The Anglican Church holds to 39 Articles of Faith. Predestination is treated in the 17th:



I leave it for homework to determine how closely this formulation is consistent with scripture or with reformed or Roman Catholic formulations.

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It seems the Anglican Article of Faith on predestination is the biblical truth. Do you mind posting the Anglican Article of Faith on justification too?

Fish-Hunter said:

It seems the Anglican Article of Faith on predestination is the biblical truth.

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As a matter of practicality, though, most Anglicans don't hold to a Calvinist view of predestination.

Dunemeister said:

As a matter of practicality, though, most Anglicans don't hold to a Calvinist view of predestination.

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I think you will find that in many denominations. Many of the modern day Arminian churches still have historical confessions that profess a Reformed understanding of predestination. I believe historical confessions and creeds are very important if they are biblical. Do you mind posting the Anglican Article of Faith on justification?

Anglician Articles of Faith - I wholeheartily agree below!


X. Of Free-Will.
The condition of Man after the fall of Adam is such, that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and good works, to faith; and calling upon God. Wherefore we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing us, that we may have a good will, and working with us, when we have that good will.

XI. Of the Justification of Man.
We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by Faith only, is a most wholesome Doctrine, and very full of comfort, as more largely is expressed in the Homily of Justification.

XII. Of Good Works.
Albeit that Good Works, which are the fruits of Faith, and follow after Justification, cannot put away our sins, and endure the severity of God's judgment; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and do spring out necessarily of a true and lively Faith insomuch that by them a lively Faith may be as evidently known as a tree discerned by the fruit.

XIII. Of Works before Justification.
Works done before the grace of Christ, and the Inspiration of his Spirit, are not pleasant to God, forasmuch as they spring not of faith in Jesus Christ; neither do they make men meet to receive grace, or (as the School-authors say) deserve grace of congruity: yea rather, for that they are not done as God hath willed and commanded them to be done, we doubt not but they have the nature of sin.

39 ARticles of Religion Anglican

Fish-Hunter,
Your view have no support in the Bible.

The contrast between the Torâh formula for kipur [atonement] and, le-havdil [to separate] , the Hellenist-Christian "plan of salvation" exemplifies the intractable antithesis of these mutually exclusive belief systems:

1. For Israel and Jews since Avrahâm [Abraham] —including Ribi Yehoshua a and the Netzâr•im , ki•pur is obtained through the complementary combination of [a] doing one's utmost to keep Tor•âh according to the Sho•phtei Beit-Din [Jewish religious court] and teshuvâh [turn back from breaches of Torah to practising Torah] . Therefore, ki•pur [atonement] is the product of the khein [grace] of ha-Sheim [the Creator of the universe], which He promised in His berit [covenant] / Torâh , not the product of His Mâshiakh [Messiah]"; whereas, l-hav•dil [separated from] ,

2. Hellenists (including Z*eus and other idol-worshippers) and their Christian offspring must "believe" in / worship a man-g*od (tracing back to the Egyptian religion but absent in Judaism) for "salvation," displacing any connection to Torâh .

Note the absolute absence of any of the Hellenist elements in the Judaic formula.

As our books WAN [Who are the Netzarim], ABNC [Atonement in the Biblical New Covenant], and NHM [The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu] clearly demonstrate, Ribi Yehoshua a's teachings are in complete harmony with 1st- century Judaism—that Kipur accrues only to those committed to non-selective Tor•âh -observance according to Halâkhâh .

From Anders Branderud
Disciple of the only authentic Netzarim [source of the above quote] –that is in Ra'anana in Israel who is followers of Ribi Yehoshua - Messiah - in Ortodox Judaism

andersbranderud said:

Fish-Hunter,
Your view have no support in the Bible.

The contrast between the Torâh formula for kipur [atonement] and, le-havdil [to separate] , the Hellenist-Christian "plan of salvation" exemplifies the intractable antithesis of these mutually exclusive belief systems:

1. For Israel and Jews since Avrahâm [Abraham] —including Ribi Yehoshua a and the Netzâr•im , ki•pur is obtained through the complementary combination of [a] doing one's utmost to keep Tor•âh according to the Sho•phtei Beit-Din [Jewish religious court] and teshuvâh [turn back from breaches of Torah to practising Torah] . Therefore, ki•pur [atonement] is the product of the khein [grace] of ha-Sheim [the Creator of the universe], which He promised in His berit [covenant] / Torâh , not the product of His Mâshiakh [Messiah]"; whereas, l-hav•dil [separated from] ,

2. Hellenists (including Z*eus and other idol-worshippers) and their Christian offspring must "believe" in / worship a man-g*od (tracing back to the Egyptian religion but absent in Judaism) for "salvation," displacing any connection to Torâh .

Note the absolute absence of any of the Hellenist elements in the Judaic formula.

As our books WAN [Who are the Netzarim], ABNC [Atonement in the Biblical New Covenant], and NHM [The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu] clearly demonstrate, Ribi Yehoshua a's teachings are in complete harmony with 1st- century Judaism—that Kipur accrues only to those committed to non-selective Tor•âh -observance according to Halâkhâh .

From Anders Branderud
Disciple of the only authentic Netzarim [source of the above quote] –that is in Ra'anana in Israel who is followers of Ribi Yehoshua - Messiah - in Ortodox Judaism

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Please help me understand your posting. I believe the elect Jew was saved in the same way as the Christian (Romans chapters 9, 10, 11, 2).

Rom 2
God's Judgment and the Law

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. 24 For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded[2] as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code[3] and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 10

Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Rom 11

The Remnant of Israel

11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, [1] a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”