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Argument for living prophets in the LDS Church

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
I don't know any of them, and my personal feeling is that option 2 is the most likely of the 3, but my point was mainly with the logic Scott presented: he didn't say that he knows the prophets in question to be individually honest and of good character, and not the sort of people to lie about things like this; he said that because 90% of the membership of the LDS Church are good, then the prophets of the LDS Church must be good as well. This logic doesn't work. It doesn't mean that the prophets are bad people; it just means that Scott's argument is a bad one.
The problem with option 2 is that none of these men are stupid. Scott noted some of their backgrounds. Most have achieved impressive credentials in education, medicine, law, and business. For them to be honestly fooled is highly unlikely, to say the least. I have watched them for years, some for decades. I have listened to and read their words year after year. Their wisdom is never lacking. Their personal reputations and conduct are impeccable. They travel the world in their work to lead the Church, talk to and mingle in all cultures. They meet with government leaders of the world. You can read their talks on lds.org and see for yourself.

They each have fervently expressed their complete conviction of the truthfulness of the gospel many times. An honest man cannot fake that. If this were all a hoax, innocent or not, it would have crumbled apart long ago.

BTW, this is why I could easily endorse Mitt Romney. I don't know him personally; however, I DO know the type of person it takes to be a stake president. That was enough for me to be confident of his integrity.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
The problem with option 2 is that none of these men are stupid. Scott noted some of their backgrounds. Most have achieved impressive credentials in education, medicine, law, and business. For them to be honestly fooled is highly unlikely, to say the least. I have watched them for years, some for decades. I have listened to and read their words year after year. Their wisdom is never lacking. Their personal reputations and conduct are impeccable. They travel the world in their work to lead the Church, talk to and mingle in all cultures. They meet with government leaders of the world. You can read their talks on lds.org and see for yourself.

Exactly, we promote education on a secular level in the church. It is very important to us. Would a false prophet really want his people to be educated? or would he try to keep them as ignorant as possible?
 

idea

Question Everything
Is this knowledge of the Truth (or Untruth) transferable? Can the example of Truth (or Untruth) be demonstrated in fact and reality and be provable in the form that cannot be denied but offer others the option to accept or reject?


Yes - anyone who really wants to know, all you have to do is clean up your life, be sincere, and pray to know. It is that simple.

Please explain to me how seeing an angel or hearing a voice, defining or producing a spirit that can only be described as holy using the post that I have outlined in red would thoroughly, Truthfully (without a doubt) originate with a/the One True GOD and not be mistaken or misinterpreted for a hallucinatory figment of one’s imagination or a mental or a personal (or mass) emotional normality or disorder.

How can you prove any of your experiences were not from some disorder? As said before, you can know with the same certainty that you know anything else, as certain as you are of the sun, the moon, the trees, your family - you can know with the same certainty.

So if a person received and documented communications today (like the people of the Old and New Testament did) from a Being claiming to be GOD (like the people of the Old and New Testament did) you would willingly incorporate, follow and adhere to this revelator’s inspired writings?

I would adhere if the Spirit told me to adhere. The Spirit can let you kow who is who.

Why would some religions require or encourage missionaries to go into service then? What is this for? Who is this for?

God is all powerful and does not need anything from us. Everything He does is for us, not for Him. He is selfless. Missionaries help people, we serve eachother, we teach each other, we don't teach God anything.

I would probably direct the prophets of old to the above outline directed in red? If I lived back 2000 or 3000 years ago, how do you think they would do on this test? Comparing what the prophets of old wrote to the reality of today, how well do you think they would perform on my test? Would it be well enough for everyone to no longer require faith? Would it well enough to reduce the number of interpretations and organizations that religions promote today?

There were many interpretations and different organizations in the OT / NT too. That is why old as well as modern day prophets have been killed. I think the Sadducees and Pharisees depict many churches quite nicely. Can you tell the difference between someone preaching for gain and power and popularity, and someone teaching from sincerity? More than just sincere, sincere and not confused.
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
Isn't it unique in our church how the leaders do not aspire or prepare in career or formal education for religious leadership? There are no theology degrees, nor seminary training with the plans of ministerial or clergy careers.

We seek after our own interests, be it medicine, law, teaching, business, farming, etc. No plans, whatsoever to any high church calling. And, as I said earlier, none even want such callings. But because of the knowledge of the truthfulness of the gospel, when God calls, you go. You put down your fishing nets, like the apostles of old, and go.

To put aside an honorable lifetime career, and the highest reputation of honesty and integrity, and assume a life of deception, or delusion, is nothing short of ridiculous.
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
why are your 15 different then the two I linked?
You're comparing the apostles and prophet of the LDS Church to a TV evangelist? Have you been reading this thread? Do you know anything about the men we've been describing? I'm not criticizing you, but I'm a little taken aback.
 

rocka21

Brother Rock
You're comparing the apostles and prophet of the LDS Church to a TV evangelist? Have you been reading this thread? Do you know anything about the men we've been describing? I'm not criticizing you, but I'm a little taken aback.


A Prophet does 3 things:

1) Teaches, a Prophet is a teacher. That is the essential meaning of the word. He teaches the body of truth, the Gospel, revealed by the Lord to man; and under inspiration explains it to the understanding of the people. He is an expounder of truth. Also, he shows that the way to human happiness is through obedience to God's Law. the purpose of his life is to uphold the Lord's plan of salvation. all this he does by close communion with the Lord, until he is "full of power, even the spirit of the Lord" (Micah 3:8)

2) Seer. A seer is one who sees with spiritual eyes. He perceives the meaning of that which seems obscure to others; therefore he is an interpreter and clarifier of eternal truth. He forsees the future from the past and the present. This he does by the power of the Lord operating through him directly, or indirectly with the aid of divine instruments such as the urim and Thummim. He is one who walks in the Lord's light with open eyes.

3) Revelator. A revelator makes known, with the Lord's help, something before unknown. It may be new or forgotten truth, or a new or forgotten application of known truth to man's need. Always the revelator deals with Truth, certain Truth and always it comes with the divine stamp of approval. Revelation may be recieved in various ways, but it always presupposes that the revelator has so lived and conducted himself as to be in tune with the divine spirit of revelation, the spirit of truth, and therefore capable or recieving divine messages.



Sounds like the two I just listed. Prove me wrong. They are not just "TV evangelist", but also prophets
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
This makes no sense. According to adherents.com, there are ~11,000,000 Mormons. Assuming that 90% of them are honest, that still leaves more than a million who aren't. This is more than adequate as a pool from which to draw 15 people.

Also, you're slipping a condition in there without any defense: why do you automatically assume that Apostles are chosen out of the ranks of honest Mormons?

And think of a similar argument to yours: if 90% of devout, honest Mormons make no claim to prophethood, then it's unlikely that most, some, or even any of them would ever claim to be a prophet. Doesn't that speak against the possibility of them being genuinely prophets just as much as what you're suggesting?

Let me see if I can break down what you're suggesting:

- by virtue of their status as prophets, the 15 prophets of the LDS church are different from other Church members. This difference has its foundation in something.
- it would be very unlikely that they would be lying, so the odds are negligible that that would be the root of the difference.
- it would be very unlikely that they would be deluded or deceived, so the odds are negligible that that would be the root of the difference.
- therefore, without any consideration of its odds, the only option remaining is that they are legitimate prophets ordained by God, which by elimination must be correct.

I'm certain that the Apostles are called from the ranks of the honest. That may be hard for me to prove to you, but it is a fact of which I am certain, based on all of my years of participation in my church. I see how it works day in and day out with callings to leadership positions. The odds that dishonest men are called to the Apostleship are astronomically low.

The Apostles are only different from other members in a couple of ways

- They have been called as members of the Quorum of the Twelve or the First Presidency. Only 15 men serve in these positions at the same time.

- They claim to have a "perfect knowledge" of the resurrected Christ, given by revelation. All members of the LDS church do not necessarily have or claim to have such a perfect knowledge. Individual conviction or personal knowledge comes in degrees. I consider myself to be different from the Apostles in that regard.

- Otherwise, the Apostles are not different from any other member of the church and they are called to serve from the ranks of the church.

Your summary of what I'm suggesting is pretty accurate.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
A Prophet does 3 things:

1) Teaches, a Prophet is a teacher. That is the essential meaning of the word. He teaches the body of truth, the Gospel, revealed by the Lord to man; and under inspiration explains it to the understanding of the people. He is an expounder of truth. Also, he shows that the way to human happiness is through obedience to God's Law. the purpose of his life is to uphold the Lord's plan of salvation. all this he does by close communion with the Lord, until he is "full of power, even the spirit of the Lord" (Micah 3:8)

2) Seer. A seer is one who sees with spiritual eyes. He perceives the meaning of that which seems obscure to others; therefore he is an interpreter and clarifier of eternal truth. He forsees the future from the past and the present. This he does by the power of the Lord operating through him directly, or indirectly with the aid of divine instruments such as the urim and Thummim. He is one who walks in the Lord's light with open eyes.

3) Revelator. A revelator makes known, with the Lord's help, something before unknown. It may be new or forgotten truth, or a new or forgotten application of known truth to man's need. Always the revelator deals with Truth, certain Truth and always it comes with the divine stamp of approval. Revelation may be recieved in various ways, but it always presupposes that the revelator has so lived and conducted himself as to be in tune with the divine spirit of revelation, the spirit of truth, and therefore capable or recieving divine messages.



Sounds like the two I just listed. Prove me wrong. They are not just "TV evangelist", but also prophets

thanks for posting your refrences. that was my post, thanks. and you have to couple that witht he other 6 questions.

those TV evangelists are profiting from thier ventures. they are not Prophets, they are captialists.
 

rocka21

Brother Rock
thanks for posting your refrences. that was my post, thanks. and you have to couple that witht he other 6 questions.

those TV evangelists are profiting from thier ventures. they are not Prophets, they are captialists.


The president is also supplied with a home. According to the Salt Lake Tribune, Aug. 27, 1994, p. E1, the president of the LDS Church lives in a "downtown condominium, the official residence of church presidents." In the Salt Lake Tribune, Dec. 8, 1988, we read "The $1.2 million condominium at 40 N. State that is home to the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will be exempt from property taxes, Salt Lake County commissioners ruled Tuesday."


Sounds like the president is a "captialists" also.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
When an individual serves at the Internation Center of the Baha`i's in Haifa, their living expenses are assumed by administrative order. Housing is provided, communications, utilities, travel expenses, food, etc.. It's only fair because they are unable to continue doing what they do for their living.

Current members of the Universal House of Justice are:

Dr. Arbab was born into a Bahá'í family Tehran, Iran. He received a Bachelor's degree from Amherst College, in 1964 and obtained his doctorate in elementary particle physics at the University of California, Berkeley. He served as president of Fundación para la Aplicación y Enseñanza de las Ciencias (FUNDAEC), a nongovernmental development agency in Colombia, from 1974 to 1988, and continues to serve on its board of directors. He holds an honorary doctorate in science from Amherst College (1989).
From 1970 until 1980 he served as the Chairman for the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Colombia. In 1980 he was appointed to the Continental Board of Counsellors for the Protection and Propagation of the Faith in the Americas, on which he served for eight years. In 1988, he was named to the Bahá'í International Teaching Centre, which has its seat in Haifa, Israel, and was a member of that body until 1993, when he was first elected to the Universal House of Justice. [1]

Kiser
Barns is educated with a Bachelor of Arts in political science from Morgan State University (1965), a Juris Doctor's degree from the University of Maryland School of Law (1974), as well as a Masters in the Philosophy of Law from Obafemi Awolowo University. He practiced law in Maryland before moving residence to West Africa where he was a Senior Lecturer in the Faculty of Law at Obafemi Awolowo University in Nigeria. There he taught the law of business associations, law of contracts and international economic law from 1980 to 1993.
Mr. Barnes was a member of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Benin from 1977 to 1979. He was appointed an Auxiliary Board for the propagation of the Faith in Nigeria and served in that capacity from 1981 to 1990. In 1990 he was appointed to the the Continental Board of Counsellors for the Protection and Propagation of the Faith in Africa. Three years later to the International Teaching Centre where he served until his election to the Universal House of Justice in 2000.[1]

Hooper
Dunbar worked as an actor on stage and screen, making films with Columbia, Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer and Twentieth Century-Fox studios, and was a member of the Screen Actors Guild of America. In 1958, he left Hollywood to take up residence in Central and South America, where he taught arts and English as a second language, and set up a graphic design business. However, his primary interest during those years was volunteer work as a teacher and lecturer for the Bahá'í Faith.
Mr. Dunbar served as a member of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Nicaragua from 1961 to 1963. Subsequently, he was appointed as an Auxiliary Board for the Protection of the Faith in the Americas from 1963 to 1968, and then as a Continental Board of Counsellors for the Protection and Propagation of the Faith from 1968 to 1973, also for the America. He took up residence in Haifa, Israel in 1973 when he was named as one of the founding members of the International Teaching Centre. Dunbar served as a member of that institution for fifteen years, until he was elected to the Universal House of Justice in 1988

continued
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Firaydoun Javaheri (born in Iran) is currently serving as a member of the Universal House of Justice, the supreme governing body of the Bahá'í Faith. He was elected in 2003.

[edit] Biography

After growing up and finishing his Masters in Agriculture at the University of Karaj in Iran, Dr. Javaheri lived 27 years in the African countries of Gambia and Zambia, working as Chief Technical Adviser for the Food and Agriculture Organization. He completed a doctorate in agronomy from the University of Zimbabwe. In 1976 he was appointed Auxiliary Board member and in 1995 Continental Counsellor before being elected to the Universal House of Justice in 2003.[1]

Paul Lample (born in Philadelphia, United States) is currently serving as a member of the Universal House of Justice, the supreme governing body of the Bahá'í Faith. He was elected in 2005.

[edit] Biography

Lample was educated with a Bachelor of Arts in biology from Northwestern University and a Master of Science from the National University. He served on the National Teaching Committee of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of the United States in the early 1990s before moving to Haifa, Israel to work at the Bahá'í World Centre. In 2003 was appointed Counsellor of the International Teaching Centre and elected to the Universal House of Justice in 2005.[1]

Glenford Eckleton Mitchell (born March 3, 1935 in Jamaica) is currently serving as a member of the Universal House of Justice, the supreme governing body of the Bahá'í Faith. He was elected in 1982, and is the current officeholder that has served the longest.

[edit] Biography

Mitchell is educated with a Bachelor's degree in business education from Shaw University in 1960, and a Master's degree in journalism from Columbia University n 1962. He then started working as assistant editorial director of Maryknoll Publications and executive secretary of the Maryknoll Book Club in New York. He later served as assistant editor of Africa Report magazine (1963-67) and as managing editor of World Order Magazine (1967-82). He was an instructor in English and journalism at Howard University (1966-67). In 1968 Mitchell was elected to the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of the United States, and the same year becoming its secretary. In 1980 he concluded a Doctor of Philosophy degree from the National College of Education in Evanston, Illinois. In 1982 he was elected to the Universal House of Justice. In 2005 he became the longest sitting of the nine current members when Ian Semple withdrew.

continued
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Payman Mohajer (born in Teheran, Iran) is currently serving as a member of the Universal House of Justice, the supreme governing body of the Bahá'í Faith. He was elected in 2005.

[edit] Biography

Mohajer grew up in Iran to the level of elementary school before moving with his family to India. He received his degree in homeopathic medicine in 1984 and started working in a medical clinic. During this period he also took a Master's degree in psychology. He was appointed an Auxiliary Board member in 1986, and in 1991 to the Continental Board of Counsellors in Asia. In 1996 he founded the Foundation for the Advancement of Science. In 1998 he was appointed to serve at the International Teaching Centre, and elected to the Universal House of Justice in 2005.[1]

Dr. Peter Jamel Khan (born November 12, 1936 in New South Wales, Australia) is currently serving as a member of the Universal House of Justice, the supreme governing body of the Bahá'í Faith. He was elected in 1987.

[edit] Biography

Peter Khan was born in Australia to a Khan family who are decedents of early Afghan settlers in Australia.
Khan was educated with a Bachelor of Science in 1956, a BE in 1959 and a doctorate in electrical engineering in 1963 from the University of Sydney. From 1963-67 he as a Fulbright postdoctoral fellow and later professor of electrical engineering at the University of Michigan, United States. He returned to Australia and worked as visiting professor at the University of New South Wales (1975) and as associate professor at the University of Queensland (1976-83).
He served as a member of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Australia from 1958 to 1963, and was subsequently appointed Auxiliary Board for the Propagation of the Faith in the United States from 1967 to 1976, and as Continental Board of Counselors for the Protection and Propagation of the Faith in Australasia from 1976 to 1983, and then to the International Teaching Centre from 1983 to 1987, when he was elected to the Universal House of Justice

MY point here is this:
These individuals gave up their private lives and their livelihoods to go and serve the faith. Should they be forced to poverty to do so? Or does the faith owe them recompense for what they are doing?

I think the same rule applies to Mormons who serve in the same way.

To imply that they could not support themselves on their own is a base canard, a vile epithet, a slur on their character and you should be ashamed.

Now do I believe that the Prophet of the LDS is anointed by God? No. But my point is the same.

Regards,
Scott
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
If a person claims to be a prophet of God, one of the following must be true:

1. The person knows he is a prophet, is telling the truth, and is a prophet.
2. The person thinks he's a prophet, is telling the truth of what he believes, but is deceived (by Satan, mental disorder, low intelligence, doesn't understand what a prophet is, misinterprets personal experiences, etc., etc.) and is not a prophet.
3. The person knows he is not a prophet, is intentionally lying, and is not a prophet.
I'm afraid I find 2 (specifically the misinterpretation) to be the most likely, followed by 3.

I haven't trudged through the whole thread, but let's take a moment to discuss what you mean by "prophet." Does it include making prophecies, or does it simply mean one who speaks with the authority of God?

Let's discuss (2). All 15 men claim to be prophets and apostles. They claim to have had sacred spiritual experiences, after which God specifically commanded them to not reveal it, due to its sacredness, and due to the fact that many would ridicule. Joseph Smith was commanded to speak freely of his revelations, but in our day, the prophets have been commanded to not speak so freely of theirs.
That's an awfully convenient prohibition.

Since we're on (2), let's consider if 15 men can be so deceived? It would not just be 15, but all 15 over the years from Joseph Smith forward. These men are highly intelligent. I already established their honesty. They come from the ranks of educators, heart surgeons, state supreme court judges, Harvard professors, scientists. and other reputable positions. They are men of great accomplishment and talent. These are not men who decided at some point in life that they wanted to enter the ministry because they felt "called". These are men who were literally plucked up from what they were doing and asked to serve in their current church position.
And, having been so called, they must be under enormous pressure to live up to that calling. I don't find it at all unreasonable that one might lie about that.

Knowing what I know about these 15 men, it's inconceivable to me that they are all deceived. They are too well grounded to all believe that they have had these miraculous revelations when they really didn't happen. It would be like believing that all 11 Apostles were deceived when Christ appeared to them after the resurrection and told them to touch his body and see for themselves.
Ah, but it's so easy to mistake one's own beliefs and ideas for God's.
"If I take a lamp and shine it toward the wall, a bright spot will appear on the wall. The lamp is our search for truth, for understanding. Too often we assume that the light on the wall is god. But the light is not the goal of the search, it is the result of the search. More intense the search, the brighter the light on the wall. The brighter the light on the wall, the greater the sense of revelation upon seeing it. Similarly, someone who does not search, who does not bring a lantern with him, sees nothing. What we perceive as god, is byproduct of our search for god. It may simply be appreciation of the light - pure and bright. Not understanding that it comes from us. Sometimes we stand in front of the light and assume we are the center of the universe. God looks astonishingly like we do. Or we turn to look at our shadow and assume all is darkness. If we allow ourself get in the way, we defeat the purpose, which is to illuminate the wall in all it's beauty and in all its flaws and so better understand the world around us." ~ J. Michael Straczinsky, Babylon 5
This is the mistake I think most believers make.

If 2 and 3 are inconceivable, that leaves 1. Think about it.
But they're not inconceivable to one who is not indoctrinated to the faith. :sorry1:
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
The president is also supplied with a home. According to the Salt Lake Tribune, Aug. 27, 1994, p. E1, the president of the LDS Church lives in a "downtown condominium, the official residence of church presidents." In the Salt Lake Tribune, Dec. 8, 1988, we read "The $1.2 million condominium at 40 N. State that is home to the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will be exempt from property taxes, Salt Lake County commissioners ruled Tuesday."


Sounds like the president is a "captialists" also.

you are trying to make something that is not there. the Prophet does not recieve a Salary. he has a living allowance which comes from the church's own investments.

the church owns businesses such as Beneficial Life insurance to pay for administration and living allowances for the church leaders.

Also, most of them are retired and have thier own means for living. one of the reasons the church has the prophet live on temple square is for security purposes.
 
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