Abortion is murder

The Voice of Reason · Jun 28, 2008

Willamena said:
Well, that's your debate, though, not Tau's. Tau's only purpose (as stated in the thread above yours) is to voice an opinion.

And, as Father Heathen pointed out, that would make one question why the thread was even started, on RF?

Tau can take out an ad in the New York Times, to spread the "gospel according to Tau".

The very fact that he posted it in "Religious Debates" on RF, would just ask for rebuttal, or at the very least - comment.

Tau · Jun 28, 2008

Interesting reading.

However I made up my mind long before I posted the first time, I will never change my mind on elective abortion, this thread is not about debating the issue it was a statement of opinion, namely my opinion, someone has to take a side....ying and yang and all that....you need people like me, rigid in certain beilefs, to counter (balance) our opposites and they to counter us.....without the parental authoritarians (here my theistic sympathies manifest) like me that view all human life as sacred and non negotiable, to be defended, fundamentally, out of parental outrage, you would live the law of the jungle, and conversely without our polar opposites the (I shall use an arbitary LABEL) Libertarians you would be living in a totalitarian police state

D sorry but we just can't help it)

Neither scenario would be conducive to the Greater Good and the general welfare of humanity, but then neither is elective abortion in my view so I can still attack it!...but that is MY perception only...and I recognise that...Tau is not the only human here.
It boils down to democracy.

That's what the 'Greater Good' is based on, mutuality.

Good for you guys whatever you posted, and we didnt let this higly volatile thread degenerate into a Thread Closed For Staff Review situation.

Thanks for all your replies to this thread, appreciated.

Tau · Jun 28, 2008

The Voice of Reason said:
The very fact that he posted it in "Religious Debates" on RF, would just ask for rebuttal, or at the very least - comment.

It isnt that much of a biggie...nothing is stopping the opening up of the OP topic itself to debate, which is what happened for a number of pages, who really cares what I think or what my opinion is? that is merely secondary and at most a starting point or point of reference.
No need to be pendantic...

robtex · Jun 28, 2008

Tau said:
Interesting reading.

However I made up my mind long before I posted the first time, I will never change my mind on elective abortion, .

I have to say that is noble for your to come out and say that. Most Christians would not when speaking to non-Christians but you have to understand non-Christian frustration that frequently that is yall's position on everything you deem or imagine your God says or commands of you. The word abortion is no-where in your Bible but some fella name John O Keefe who loses his Brother Ryan in Vietnam makes it a Christian issue and all of a sudden he has millions of zealots who probably would never have thought about if he hadn't made a religious issue of it saying "God doesn't want abortions" despite the fact that there are 900,000 miscarriages a year in the USA on average.

Tau · Jun 28, 2008

robtex said:
I have to say that is noble for your to come out and say that. Most Christians would not when speaking to non-Christians but you have to understand non-Christian frustration that frequently that is yall's position on everything you deem or imagine your God says or commands of you. The word abortion is no-where in your Bible but some fella name John O Keefe who loses his Brother Ryan in Vietnam makes it a Christian issue and all of a sudden he has millions of zealots who probably would never have thought about if he hadn't made a religious issue of it saying "God doesn't want abortions" despite the fact that there are 900,000 miscarriages a year in the USA on average.

Thanks Robtex but in fact I am not technically a Christian although many of my beliefs overlap with Christian beliefs, I just happen to agree with the Christian God on certain things...I have my own vision of what I call God and the Christian God is but one avatar of the true hidden God, He who is not moulded in the likeness of man.

But I digress.

The Bible for me is partly true at least as Is the Koran or the Torah and I suspect Thou Shalt Not Kill is Holy and from the true God himself.

McBell · Jun 28, 2008

Tau said:
Interesting reading.

However I made up my mind long before I posted the first time, I will never change my mind on elective abortion, this thread is not about debating the issue it was a statement of opinion, namely my opinion, someone has to take a side....ying and yang and all that....you need people like me, rigid in certain beilefs, to counter (balance) our opposites and they to counter us.....without the parental authoritarians (here my theistic sympathies manifest) like me that view all human life as sacred and non negotiable, to be defended, fundamentally, out of parental outrage, you would live the law of the jungle, and conversely without our polar opposites the (I shall use an arbitary LABEL) Libertarians you would be living in a totalitarian police state D sorry but we just can't help it)

Neither scenario would be conducive to the Greater Good and the general welfare of humanity, but then neither is elective abortion in my view so I can still attack it!...but that is MY perception only...and I recognise that...Tau is not the only human here.
It boils down to democracy.

That's what the 'Greater Good' is based on, mutuality.

Good for you guys whatever you posted, and we didnt let this higly volatile thread degenerate into a Thread Closed For Staff Review situation.

Thanks for all your replies to this thread, appreciated.

*grabs rubber raft...*

The Voice of Reason · Jun 28, 2008

Tau said:
It isnt that much of a biggie...nothing is stopping the opening up of the OP topic itself to debate, which is what happened for a number of pages, who really cares what I think or what my opinion is? that is merely secondary and at most a starting point or point of reference.
No need to be pendantic...

Let me be sure I understand this - you are accusing me of being pedantic, based on the fact that I see your post in a debate forum as being a trigger that your thoughts should be open for discussion?

If you simply wanted to voice your position in the absence of debate, reply, or rebuttal, then why did you not post them in one of the forums that are not open to debate?

Either I do not understand the word "pedantic", or you do not understand the phrase "Religious Debates".

After reading your statement "However I made up my mind long before I posted the first time ..." - I would suggest that Robert A Heinlein is rolling over in his grave. Grokking? I think not.

Tau · Jun 29, 2008

The Voice of Reason said:
Let me be sure I understand this - you are accusing me of being pedantic, based on the fact that I see your post in a debate forum as being a trigger that your thoughts should be open for discussion?

If you simply wanted to voice your position in the absence of debate, reply, or rebuttal, then why did you not post them in one of the forums that are not open to debate?

Either I do not understand the word "pedantic", or you do not understand the phrase "Religious Debates".

After reading your statement "However I made up my mind long before I posted the first time ..." - I would suggest that Robert A Heinlein is rolling over in his grave. Grokking? I think not.

Already spent a few decades or so 'grokking' abortion, at some point a conclusion was drawn, I still grok that my perception is only one of many....

Pedantry Noun
pl -ries the practice of being a pedant, esp. in the minute observance of petty rules or details

Debate occurs regardless of my rhetoric....as this thread of 30 odd pages demonstrates.

Get over it.

Jayhawker Soule · Jun 29, 2008

Tau said:
The Bible for me is partly true at least as Is the Koran or the Torah ...

Now that's an abortion ... :slap:

The Voice of Reason · Jun 29, 2008

Tau said:
Pedantry Noun
pl -ries the practice of being a pedant, esp. in the minute observance of petty rules or details

Thanks. I doubt that I could have ever found that on my own.
If you are offended when someone asks you to adhere to the rules of a particular forum, then I guess the entire staff here must really drive you nuts.

Tau said:
Debate occurs regardless of my rhetoric....as this thread of 30 odd pages demonstrates.

Precisely. That is because the rest of us understand (and try to adhere to) the rules of the site.

Tau said:
Get over it.

Can't make me.

Sonic247 · Jul 2, 2008

robtex said:
I have to say that is noble for your to come out and say that. Most Christians would not when speaking to non-Christians but you have to understand non-Christian frustration that frequently that is yall's position on everything you deem or imagine your God says or commands of you. The word abortion is no-where in your Bible but some fella name John O Keefe who loses his Brother Ryan in Vietnam makes it a Christian issue and all of a sudden he has millions of zealots who probably would never have thought about if he hadn't made a religious issue of it saying "God doesn't want abortions" despite the fact that there are 900,000 miscarriages a year in the USA on average.

The issue is wether a child is alive before it is born, and "thou shalt not kill."
Which is the real Luke 2:5---
a.To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

b.To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with fetus.

c. The IRS is evil.

d. I ordered a cheeseburger.

The Voice of Reason · Jul 2, 2008

Sonic247 said:
The issue is wether a child is alive before it is born, and "thou shalt not kill."
Which is the real Luke 2:5---
a.To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

b.To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with fetus.

c. The IRS is evil.

d. I ordered a cheeseburger.

As an avowed agnostic, I have to say that I don't know which is the real quote of Luke 2:5, but I hope that you can appreciate that I honestly don't care, either.

McBell · Jul 2, 2008

Sonic247 said:
The issue is wether a child is alive before it is born, and "thou shalt not kill."

Nice strawman.
At no point in time is anything involved with human procreation dead.
A living sperm has to fertilize a living egg.
If either is dead, there is no conception.

Thou Shalt not kill unless the one being killed

rejects the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God (Deuteronomy 17:12)
is a homosexual (Leviticus 20:13)
acts as a medium or fortuneteller (Leviticus 20:27)
strikes his father or mother(Exodus 21:15)
curses his father or mother (Proverbs 20:20) (Leviticus 20:9)
commits adultry (Leviticus 20:10)
follows another religion (Exodus 22:19)(Numbers 25:1-9)
are nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)
are not a virgin on wedding night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
speaks blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16)
working on the sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15)
is the son of a sinner (Isaiah 14:21)

The Voice of Reason · Jul 2, 2008

Mestemia said:
...
Thou Shalt not kill unless the one being killed

rejects the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God (Deuteronomy 17:12)
is a homosexual (Leviticus 20:13)
acts as a medium or fortuneteller (Leviticus 20:27)
strikes his father or mother(Exodus 21:15)
curses his father or mother (Proverbs 20:20) (Leviticus 20:9)
commits adultry (Leviticus 20:10)
follows another religion (Exodus 22:19)(Numbers 25:1-9)
are nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)
are not a virgin on wedding night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
speaks blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16)
working on the sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15)
is the son of a sinner (Isaiah 14:21)

Pretty impressive list. Very openminded, too. What would constitute grounds for a stoning?

McBell · Jul 2, 2008

The Voice of Reason said:
Pretty impressive list. Very openminded, too. What would constitute grounds for a stoning?

Here is a list of the various forms of capital punishment in the Bible and the offenses that are deserving of each:

burning (Genesis 38:24; Leviticus 20:14; Daniel 3:6),
hanging (Numbers 25:4; Deuteronomy 21:22; Deuteronomy 21:23; Joshua 8:29; 2 Samuel 21:12; Esther 7:9; Esther 7:10),
crucifying (Matthew 20:19; Matthew 27:35),
beheading (Genesis 40:19; Mark 6:16; Mark 6:27),
slaying with the sword (1 Samuel 15:33; Acts 12:2),
stoning (Leviticus 24:14; Deuteronomy 13:10; Acts 7:59),
cutting in pieces (Daniel 2:5; Matthew 24:51),
sawing asunder (Hebrews 11:37),
exposing to wild beasts (Daniel 6:16; Daniel 6:24; 1 Corinthians 15:32),
bruising in mortars (Proverbs 27:22),
casting headlong from a rock (2 Chronicles 25:12),
casting into the sea (Matthew 18:6).

logician · Jul 2, 2008

The Voice of Reason said:
Pretty impressive list. Very openminded, too. What would constitute grounds for a stoning?

I think voting for Bush comes close.

The Voice of Reason · Jul 2, 2008

Mestemia said:
Here is a list of the various forms of capital punishment in the Bible and the offenses that are deserving of each:

burning (Genesis 38:24; Leviticus 20:14; Daniel 3:6),
hanging (Numbers 25:4; Deuteronomy 21:22; Deuteronomy 21:23; Joshua 8:29; 2 Samuel 21:12; Esther 7:9; Esther 7:10),
crucifying (Matthew 20:19; Matthew 27:35),
beheading (Genesis 40:19; Mark 6:16; Mark 6:27),
slaying with the sword (1 Samuel 15:33; Acts 12:2),
stoning (Leviticus 24:14; Deuteronomy 13:10; Acts 7:59),
cutting in pieces (Daniel 2:5; Matthew 24:51),
sawing asunder (Hebrews 11:37),
exposing to wild beasts (Daniel 6:16; Daniel 6:24; 1 Corinthians 15:32),
bruising in mortars (Proverbs 27:22),
casting headlong from a rock (2 Chronicles 25:12),
casting into the sea (Matthew 18:6).

Not bad - cursing is grounds for stoning.

Sounds like quite the benevolent God to me.

The Voice of Reason · Jul 2, 2008

logician said:
I think voting for Bush comes close.

I think you are using an alternative form of the word. Someone would have to be "Stoned" to vote for Bush.

Then he should be stoned.

McBell · Jul 2, 2008

The Voice of Reason said:
Not bad - cursing is grounds for stoning.

Sounds like quite the benevolent God to me.

Seems to me that the two lists pretty much show that the argument "thou shalt not kill" holds no weight.
Ever.

However, for those who argue that it is not "thou shalt not kill" but "thou shalt not murder," the list would seem rather irrelevant.

Mathematician · Jul 2, 2008

Just for clarification purposes, conception is a process, not a stage or moment. Pinpointing when a human comes about through sperm and egg fertilization would be fairly hard. DNA doesn't form instantaneously.

Abortion is murder

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