A Crucial Difference Between McCain and Obama?

It seems to me Obama is showing greater talent for leadership than McCain. Obama is trying to raise people up to a higher level of understanding how the separation of church and state works. McCain is merely pandering to people's prejudices on the matter. If an ability to pander is evidence of great leadership, then we should elect Karl Rove or Hillary Clinton.

The choice is obvious. You can vote for Obama or vote for more war.

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I don't think it's that simplistic.

Sunstone said:

I don't think it's that simplistic.

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There are some of us who can decide out vote based on just ONE issue. While I can back Obama for many reasons, this one alone makes it imperative that he gets into the White House.

If this is a reference to Jonestown, I find your post callous, hateful and mean spirited. We have grown to expect that from our detractors.

Scuba Pete said:

If this is a reference to Jonestown, I find your post callous, hateful and mean spirited.

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You forgot "juvenile" and "desperate."

lilithu said:

You forgot "juvenile" and "desperate."

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After I wrote my reply, I thought better of it and reported the post. I would suggest that this is an appropriate action for all who find it offensive and against the ToS.

If Obama believes that mixing religion and politics is unwise then why does he give political speeches in churches?

Joe Stocks said:

If Obama believes that mixing religion and politics is unwise then why does he give political speeches in churches?

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Where did Obama say that the mixing of religion and politics is unwise? Not arguing; just curious.

*I* certainly don't think that the mixing of religion and politics is unwise. I do, however, think that the mixing of church and state is unwise.

Hi lilithu,

Where did Obama say that the mixing of religion and politics is unwise? Not arguing; just curious.

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Sunstone said it in the OP.

*I* certainly don't think that the mixing of religion and politics is unwise. I do, however, think that the mixing of church and state is unwise.

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What is the difference?

I'm with you, Pete. I was rooting for McCain in 2000...of course, lots of things have changed since then...but anyway here's another disappointing example of how the "Maverick" discovered the art of pandering in the last eight years:

When McCain ran for president the last time, he denounced Falwell as one of America's "agents of intolerance." But now that McCain is gearing up to run for president as the GOP's establishment candidate, he has told Falwell that he spoke "in haste" in 2000.


"It just came down to pure old politics in South Carolina and other states," Falwell said.


Falwell and McCain first made peace in a face-to-face meeting a few months ago. In a sign of their improved relationship, McCain has agreed to be the graduation speaker at Falwell's Liberty University on May 13.

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From ABC News, March 2006 ABC News: McCain Woos the Right, Makes Peace With Falwell

Joe Stocks said:

Sunstone said it in the OP.

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Well Obama himself doesn't speak against mixing religion and politics. What he said is that politics should not be sectarian (promoting one sect over another) and that we shouldn't use faith as a means to attack people, and most importantly that we should be willing and able to translate our faith-based positions in terms that people who don't share our faith can understand. That last part would make no sense if he was actually saying that you can't mix politics and religion.

Joe Stocks said:

What is the difference?

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Church and State. The mixing of Church and State would be any time the State (ie - govt) does something to either promote one religion above others. For example, if it made Christianity the official religion of the U.S. OR the govt does something to prevent someone from practicing his or her religion. For example, it makes praying illegal. Both of these kinds of activities are prohibited by the First Amendment of the Constitution. Thus, we have the separation of Church and State.

Religion and politics. Someone believes because of their religious convictions that abortion is wrong. Because of that, they vote for the candidate who says they're against abortion. That's the mixing of religion and politics. OR someone believes of their religious convictions that all people are created equal. Because of that, they lobby their Congressman to pass a law granting equal marriage rights to BGLT folk. That's the mixing of religion and politics.

What Obama was saying in his speech is that if you want to say that abortion is wrong, you can't say "Because the bible says so." That would be imposing sectarianism - claiming that belief in the bible should hold sway over everyone. (It would also be wrong because the bible doesn't say it.) But you can believe that abortion is wrong based on your religious convictions and argue against abortion based on other lines of reasoning that would be understandable by everyone.

Joe Stocks said:

If Obama believes that mixing religion and politics is unwise then why does he give political speeches in churches?

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For the money.

I think he is simply trying to separate himself from religion after all the Rev. Write stuff happened.


I think the extremes that people have gone to over separation of church and state has been ridiculous and has actually been a detriment to freedoms. Freedom OF religion does not mean freedom FROM religion. It simply means that the government will not start or support any one religion. I feel it means ALL religion, not NO religion.

NoahideHiker said:

I think the extremes that people have gone to over separation of church and state has been ridiculous and has actually been a detriment to freedoms. Freedom OF religion does not mean freedom FROM religion. It simply means that the government will not start or support any one religion. I feel it means ALL religion, not NO religion.

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Just as we are a nation of Christians, not a Christian nation. Being a nation of Christians who support Isreal, we will prevail in the next election, just as we have in the past.

No one on earth thought GWB would get elected once, let alone twice. The reason for this is, we are bombarded with liberal press and the internet. Liberals believe because everyone they talk to on the internet thinks like they do and the news shows parrot those thoughts that they hold the majority opinion in this country.

Reality bears a different conclusion after the ballots are tallied. The Democratic base is divided as well. Many Jewish folks that where Hillary supporters are going to vote for McCain in the next election. Never underestimate the power of the unholy alliance of the religious right and the GOP. :bow:

NoahideHiker said:

For the money.

I think he is simply trying to separate himself from religion after all the Rev. Write stuff happened.


I think the extremes that people have gone to over separation of church and state has been ridiculous and has actually been a detriment to freedoms. Freedom OF religion does not mean freedom FROM religion. It simply means that the government will not start or support any one religion. I feel it means ALL religion, not NO religion.

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Did you even watch what he said before you went on your rant??

Reverend Rick said:

Just as we are a nation of Christians, not a Christian nation. Being a nation of Christians who support Isreal, we will prevail in the next election, just as we have in the past.

No one on earth thought GWB would get elected once, let alone twice. The reason for this is, we are bombarded with liberal press and the internet. Liberals believe because everyone they talk to on the internet thinks like they do and the news shows parrot those thoughts that they hold the majority opinion in this country.

Reality bears a different conclusion after the ballots are tallied. The Democratic base is divided as well. Many Jewish folks that where Hillary supporters are going to vote for McCain in the next election. Never underestimate the power of the unholy alliance of the religious right and the GOP. :bow:

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Yeah when someone starts in about what a horrible person Bush is and how dumb he is I let them go on for a while before reminding them he beat the very best the democrats could bring the last two times. Which of course usually leads to them ranting about how dumb Americans are. They always show their true self.

NoahideHiker said:

Yeah when someone starts in about what a horrible person Bush is

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I am glad to see you take a stand for treachery and deceit. What else would we expect from someone with a Kool-aid personality?

I have voted REP. the last two elections. ( i know, shoot me)

This time I really think I am going obama. Sorry Rev. Rick

I know we are on the same side most of the time.

rocka21 said:

I have voted REP. the last two elections. ( i know, shoot me)

This time I really think I am going obama. Sorry Rev. Rick

I know we are on the same side most of the time.

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Rocka, no hard feelings man. You gotta vote for who you believe is the best candidate. If Obama wins, I really hope your right about him being the best choice. It would be better for me to be wrong if we got a really good President than the other way around.

It is going to be hard for him to get elected though. CNN said one in four of Hillary supporters are voting for McCain tonight on the news. The Democratic party is still divided. The last two elections where lost when the Democrats were united with a dead even heat. With over 5% of Democrats defecting to McCain it looks like this election will not even be close.

Phil said it best, no matter who ever wins the election, the next President will be an improvement.

Reverend Rick said:

Rocka, no hard feelings man. You gotta vote for who you believe is the best candidate. If Obama wins, I really hope your right about him being the best choice. It would be better for me to be wrong if we got a really good President than the other way around.

It is going to be hard for him to get elected though. CNN said one in four of Hillary supporters are voting for McCain tonight on the news. The Democratic party is still divided. The last two elections where lost when the Democrats were united with a dead even heat. With over 5% of Democrats defecting to McCain it looks like this election will not even be close.

Phil said it best, no matter who ever wins the election, the next President will be an improvement.

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No matter who wins I'll be cheering them on to do good things. One symptom of the dementia of the far left I have found is this attempt to separate from America as a whole as if they aren't going to participate in an America that re-elects Bush. I have seen them sit by and almost root for the world to crash in on us so they can jump up and blame Bush. America bashing from within has become so sexy and clique that if you don't do it you're some kind of lock-step republican.

If Obama does get elected I hope nothing but the best for him. If he can pull the economy up, great. If he can do everything else he says he'll do at the same time, great. It will never happen but I'll still wish him well.