LDS beliefs and the Bible

Fish-Hunter · Jun 15, 2008

Katzpur said:
Fishyguy, please answer my questions before you ask me to do anything.

Why do LDS Christians avoid what is written in the Bible like a plague? Please read John chapters 8, 9, and 10 so we can deal with the issue at hand. Either the Bible is the Word of God; therefore it can be trusted for everything pertaining to faith and practice. Or, the Bible is not the trustworthy Word of God. If you believe the Bible is not the trustworthy Word of God, then you will practice a bait and switch from Bible to Book of Mormon.

2 Timothy 3:16:
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness...

As a professing Christian, do you believe the verse above is true?

Katzpur · Jun 15, 2008

Fish-Hunter said:
Are you neither a historic Christian, or a LDS Christian? It seems that your view doesn't hold much water if you do not conisder yourself to be a Christian.

A fact is a fact, regardless of whether it is stated by a Christian or a non-Christian.

Katzpur · Jun 15, 2008

Fish-Hunter said:
Why do LDS Christians avoid what is written in the Bible like a plague?

Why do you continue to avoid answering simple questions and simply try to change the subject every time you post?

Fish-Hunter · Jun 15, 2008

Katzpur said:
A fact is a fact, regardless of whether it is stated by a Christian or a non-Christian.

Define fact from opinion and you will see the light, maybe?

Fish-Hunter · Jun 15, 2008

Katzpur said:
Why do you continue to avoid answering simple questions and simply try to change the subject every time you post?

Your questions have nothing to do with the validity and the trustworthiness of the Holy Bible. Do you know why the Bible is called the Holy Bible? The LDS position in regards to the Holy Scripture is simply an opinion of men with an intent to create a new religion. Go back to the opening thread. This is about LDS Beliefs and the Bible. Does your LDS views line-up with biblical truth. On the contrary, the Holy Bible reveals that God's Word stands forever! If you don't want to discuss the contents of the Scriptures, then you have already admitted defeat in your view to attack the validity of the entire Scriptures. I have asked you to examine the LDS proclamation of the gospel with the 13 Epistles of Paul without a response from any LDS members on the contents of Paul's Epistles. I have now requested that you read John chapters 8, 9, and 10 on the subject of hearing the voice of God through the Scriptures directly from God as compared to an imaginary man-made authority. The Bible is the Word of God because it is, We are not debating the issue of the Bible being revelation from God. The thread is about the presupposition that the Bible is the Word of God. How does the LDS Beliefs stand up to the light of Scripture alone? I think FFH's infamous statement speaks for the Mormon Church.

Post 1053 from LDS Beliefs and the Bible thread by a relative of Joseph Smith.

"I cannot back up the LDS faith using the Bible alone. Let's not even go there". - FFH

Katzpur · Jun 15, 2008

Fish-Hunter said:
Define fact from opinion and you will see the light, maybe?

Fact can be proven; opinion can't be. What Halycon said is fact. Anyone who has studied the history of the early Church, regardless of whether they accept the gospel or not, can recognize a plainly stated fact when it is presented.

Katzpur · Jun 15, 2008

Fish-Hunter said:
Your questions have nothing to do with the validity and the trustworthiness of the Holy Bible. Do you know why the Bible is called the Holy Bible? The LDS position in regards to the Holy Scripture is simply an opinion of men with an intent to create a new religion. Go back to the opening thread. This is about LDS Beliefs and the Bible. Does your LDS views line-up with biblical truth. On the contrary, the Holy Bible reveals that God's Word stands forever! If you don't want to discuss the contents of the Scriptures, then you have already admitted defeat in your view to attack the validity of the entire Scriptures. I have asked you to examine the LDS proclamation of the gospel with the 13 Epistles of Paul without a response from any LDS members on the contents of Paul's Epistles. I have now requested that you read John chapters 8, 9, and 10 on the subject of hearing the voice of God through the Scriptures directly from God as compared to an imaginary man-made authority. The Bible is the Word of God because it is, We are not debating the issue of the Bible being revelation from God. The thread is about the presupposition that the Bible is the Word of God. How does the LDS Beliefs stand up to the light of Scripture alone? I think FFH's infamous statement speaks for the Mormon Church.

Post 1053 from LDS Beliefs and the Bible thread by a relative of Joseph Smith.

"I cannot back up the LDS faith using the Bible alone. Let's not even go there". - FFH

Please respond to post 1374 if you have the mental capacity to do do. Your silence speaks volumes.

McBell · Jun 15, 2008

Fish-Hunter said:
Are you neither a historic Christian, or a LDS Christian? It seems that your view doesn't hold much water if you do not conisder yourself to be a Christian. Please consider the thread topic too when you answer.

Seems you cannot stop yourself from dismissing posts that interfere with your world view.

Katzpur said:
A fact is a fact, regardless of whether it is stated by a Christian or a non-Christian.

I agree.
Problem is that Fish-Hunter is not interested in facts unless he thinks they support his world view.

Katzpur said:
Why do you continue to avoid answering simple questions and simply try to change the subject every time you post?

I think it is because he has to avoid any point that he does not have a ready copy/paste reply for.

Fish-Hunter said:
Define fact from opinion and you will see the light, maybe?

And here we see Fish-Hunter giving some pretty good advice.
Advice he himself refuses to follow...

Fish-Hunter said:
Your questions have nothing to do with the validity and the trustworthiness of the Holy Bible.

I disagree.
But then, with your limited understanding of the validity and trustworthiness of the Bible, I have no doubts that you do not understand the relevance.

Fish-Hunter said:
Do you know why the Bible is called the Holy Bible?

I do.
However I am most interested in why you think it is.

Fish-Hunter said:
The LDS position in regards to the Holy Scripture is simply and opinion with an intent to create a new religion.

Funny thing is that that is EXACTLY what Calvinism is as well.
Bet you disagree though.

Fish-Hunter said:
Go back to the opening thread. This is about LDS Beliefs and the Bible. Does your LDS views line-up with biblical truth.

Seems you are confusing your opinions as truth.
Though it does seem to me that your opinions are merely the paroting of some one elses opinions.
Which would actually make it rather more complex than I stated, but one needs start somewhere.

Fish-Hunter said:
On the contrary, the Holy Bible reveals that God's Word stands forever! If you don't want to discuss the contents of the Scriptures, then you have already admitted defeat in your view to attack the validity of the entire Scriptures.

Then you admit to defeat.
For you have not once ever on this forum addressed the fact that your "Bible Only" view is not Biblical.

Fish-Hunter said:
How does the LDS Belief stand up to the light of Scripture alone?

It NEVER did claim to be Bible alone.
That has been your strawman from get go.
Funny thing is, that here you complain and whine about LDS beliefs not standing up to Bible Alone when YOUR beliefs do not stand up to Bible Alone.
But then, you are quite the expert at ignoring the facts that you dislike.
Another question for you to ignore:

Why do you feel that the LDS must explain how their beliefs stand up to Bible Alone, when you refuse to even acknowledge that your beliefs do not stand up to Bible Alone?

Fish-Hunter said:
I think FFH's infamous statement speaks for the Mormon Church.

I think your refusal to remove the forest from your own eye speaks much louder.

*Paul* · Jun 15, 2008

Orontes said:
Orontes said:

[/size][/font]

There are different Bibles, both in regard to content and translation. Which Bible version is sola scriptura?
[/font]

Click to expand...

That depends who you ask, there is no headquarters from which the churches are dictated to on what to believe. For me and my church it is the King James Version but we are autonomous and it is something we have agreed upon together. Let others decide which version they want to use, I do not judge them on it except to say that in our church it is the king james bible for public use.

My question was not sect specific. It is general. Do you hold to determinism, with all that entails, or do you believe in free will?

Click to expand...

I believe man has a will. But it is a will that has a natural proclivity to do that which is against God;

Epistle to Romans 7:18-20 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

See how Paul says he has a will, he also knows what is good but sin nature can override your will. So I think the will can be taken into bondage by powerful desires.

A rationale suggests a line of thinking or belief. It is necessarily subject specific. My question is concerned with rationality proper which, per its base claim, would be universal (holding a geographic and chronological symmetry). A rationalist holds that the true is amenable to reason and that reason is in fact an aspect of the true. I'll give you two examples:

1) Identity statements: A=A

2) Propositional statements:

A then B
A
Therefore B

Click to expand...

Sorry but I don't understand, please use simple speech with me. As a general rule I believe logic is an important God given function but what can appear to be logical to us can turn out to be wrong.

Do you agree with Fish-Hunter's abandon of reason, or do you hold that truth claims are subject to reason?

Click to expand...

Where is it that he has abandoned reason? I need to see the example before I agree or disagree.

Fish-Hunter · Jun 15, 2008

Katzpur said:
Please respond to post 1374 if you have the mental capacity to do do. Your silence speaks volumes.

You want to discuss everything under the sun, but don't dare discuss the Scriptures. When you are ready to explore biblical revelation, please let me know. Joseph Smith is not the savior, nor are other apparent modern day prophets. FFH said it all. You are not trusting in Christ alone according to Scripture alone. You are trusting fallible men that teach contrary to the Word of God.

Post 1053 from LDS Beliefs and the Bible thread by a relative of Joseph Smith.

"I cannot back up the LDS faith using the Bible alone. Let's not even go there". - FFH

Katzpur · Jun 15, 2008

Fish-Hunter said:
You want to discuss everything under the sun, but don't dare discuss the Scriptures. When you are ready to explore biblical revelation, please let me know.

And still you either refuse or are unable to answer one simple question. I have never in all the time I've been here run into anyone quite like you. You seem to think you can ask all the questions you want, make all the accusations you want and misrepresent our beliefs all you want, but whenever any one of us asks you to answer one simple question, you're unable to. Seriously, how do you function in the real world?

Joseph Smith is not the savior, nor are other apparent modern day prophets.

Well, I'll be damned. You finally got something right.

FFH said it all. You are not trusting in Christ alone according to Scripture alone. You are trusting fallible men that teach contrary to the Word of God.

What a total load of crap. FFH said nothing of the sort. Knock off the lies.

Sententia · Jun 15, 2008

Katzpur said:
Fact can be proven; opinion can't be.

Your opinion is that Joe talked to angels, found gold plates, lost gold plates, found some translation rocks, lost some translation rocks and through those physical objects which were protected for centuries exclusively so Joe could find them, could translate them and give us the second testament.

Other people's opinion is that the bible is the only true word of god.

Some other people believe both are just literary works and not words of god.

All opinion.

You know... from your own words fact and opinion.

Katzpur · Jun 15, 2008

BalanceFx said:
Your opinion is that Joe talked to angels, found gold plates, lost gold plates, found some translation rocks, lost some translation rocks and through those physical objects which were protected for centuries exclusively so Joe could find them, could translate them and give us the second testament.

Well, you got a few of your facts wrong, but I'm not really surprised. You don't exactly have a sterling reputation for accuracy in the short time you've been here on RF. You did, however, manage to get the basics right: In my opinion, Joseph Smith talked to angels, was given an ancient record inscribed on metal plates that had the appearance of gold, and with God's help, was able to translate them and publish them as the Book of Mormon.

Other people's opinion is that the bible is the only true word of god.

That's right.

Some other people believe both are just literary works and not words of god.

That's right again.

All opinion.

That's right again. All opinion. I have never once stated my religious beliefs as fact, only as opinion. You didn't even need to bother to make your point.

You know... from your own words fact and opinion.

You know, you really do need to start reading posts before you attempt to reply to them. My statement regarding the difference between fact and opinion was in reference to post 1377 in which I was agreeing with Halcyon who, like you, doesn't believe in God. It had absolutely nothing to do with Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, the Bible, God, angels or anything of the sort.

McBell · Jun 15, 2008

Fish-Hunter said:
When you are ready to explore biblical revelation, please let me know.

Please present the verse(s) that state Bible Only.

Or are YOU not yet ready to explore Biblical Revelation?

Katzpur · Jun 15, 2008

Mestemia said:
Please present the verse(s) that state Bible Only.

Or are YOU not yet ready to explore Biblical Revelation?

Are you kidding? He's not even ready to answer one simple question I asked him a dozen posts ago? I asked how he believed the Christian canon to have been decided upon -- a question that is entirely pertinent to this discussion -- and he can't even give me an answer to that. This guy has got some serious problems with social interaction. I've never seen anything quite like it.

Sententia · Jun 16, 2008

Katzpur said:
Well, you got a few of your facts wrong

Enlighten me

Katzpur said:
, but I'm not really surprised. You don't exactly have a sterling reputation for accuracy in the short time you've been here on RF.

Baseless attack on me.

Katzpur said:
You did, however, manage to get the basics right

That's right.

That's right again.

That's right again. All opinion. I have never once stated my religious beliefs as fact, only as opinion. You didn't even need to bother to make your point.

So you agree. Look in general I am inclined to agree with you. The Bible may not contain all the books. The gospel of thomas has always been what of my favorites to quote from hehe. However. Where we disagree is which books and why. Your argument of where in the bible does it not say there are not more books is a good one. However it does warn to be wary: "Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Joeseph Smith fancied himself and his followers still fancy him a prophet. It is your opinion he is a true prophet but many others would not be so inclined to agree. Now Matthew is not the only scripture and it really depends on how you interpret the bible but look: "Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."

Based on the given story of the BoM and its content I would not be inclined to follow the faith even if I were still religious and the god of the bible is historically not very nice to false prophets.

Dirty Penguin · Jun 16, 2008

BalanceFx said:
"Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Joeseph Smith fancied himself and his followers still fancy him a prophet. It is your opinion he is a true prophet but many others would not be so inclined to agree. Now Matthew is not the only scripture and it really depends on how you interpret the bible but look: "Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."

Based on the given story of the BoM and its content I would not be inclined to follow the faith even if I were still religious and the god of the bible is historically not very nice to false prophets.

I tend to agree with you. I'm quite sure the mormons here, who have seen me post before on similar subjects won't find that at all as a shock....

For me, and I can only speak for me, I look upon the stories from a different angle. In the BoM there is the written "history"....ok...fine.....what I'm interested in...is - Does any of these events correlate archaeologically? So far I have found everything to the contrary.

As we look at names of places (most...not all) in the bible we discover that they still exist. Artifacts have been found to correlate with the life and times of the people back them. We find none of this with the BoM.

For me, it doesn't matter how much information and supposed history is in the book if they can't be matched to ANY place in the South American region it describes.

Fish-Hunter · Jun 16, 2008

In response to the LDS members implying that mankind needs LDS modern day prophets to tell them how God speaks to us, I simply asked Katzpur and others to read John chapters 8, 9, and 10. They are unwilling to explore the light of biblical revelation to see where historical biblical Christians are coming from. The LDS religion is grounded in the apparent apostasy of historic Christianity. Therefore, they refuse to let the light of God's Word to shine through the teachings of men claiming special authority from God. I have no problem with them to state their opinion on how God restored the apostate church through the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Price of Great Pearl.

I do have big issues with the LDS Church also claiming to be a Bible based church too, which is not true. They refuse to discuss the Scriptures without switching to extra-biblical Mormon revelation. It is the classic bait and switch tactic made infamous by used car salemen. Mormonism in my opinion, is based on extra-biblical revelation only, using the Holy Bible to lure unsuspecting people to think that Mormonism is a Christian based faith based on the Bible. Once they have the people in their mists, they indoctrinate them with the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Price of Great Pearl... and keep them there by saying that God gave them modern day prophets with revelation in addition to the Holy Bible. What this does is nullify the truths of the Holy Bible, creating another gospel, another Christ, and another Faith that is different than what is found in the Holy Bible alone. That is the reason why Mormons refuse to discuss the Scriptures.

If you think my views are incorrect, let's go back and discuss the 13 Epistles of Paul in comparison to the official Mormon gospel. Let's also study John chapters 8, 9, and 10 to see if God speaks directly through the scriptures alone to His adopted children. Again, the thread is about LDS Beliefs and the Holy Bible. Can Mormon beliefs be supported by biblical revelation through all of scripture. Scripture twisting is not biblical truth, but a form of spiritual manipulation. I am willing to discuss the scriptures when others are willing. I don't want to discuss personal opinions, human wisdom and logic instead of Scripture revelation. Christ is the light of the world, and to know Christ is to hear His voice through the Scriptures alone. Katzpur and others can continue to attack me personally, but that is just another tactic to avoid a discussion of what God actually reveals in the Scriptures.

Wandered Off · Jun 16, 2008

Fish-Hunter said:
Mormonism in my opinion, is based on extra-biblical revelation only, using the Holy Bible to lure unsuspecting people to think that Mormonism is a Christian based faith based on the Bible.

Even if this were true, what is the harm done in context of predestination? Not one soul is lost or gained as a result.

Fish-Hunter · Jun 16, 2008

Wandered Off said:
Even if this were true, what is the harm done in context of predestination? Not one soul is lost or gained as a result.

God's elect are everywhere! They need to hear the biblical truth to be saved. God may predestine the end in saving certain sinners, but He uses His means (preaching of the gospel - Rom 10) to accomplish His predetermined end. Nobody knows who are the elect of God before they come into faith in the biblical Christ alone. A sign of being chosen by God is receiving the gospel of God's grace with truth and power which transforms the heart of the redeemed sinner. Christians are also commanded to contend for the Faith too against false Christs, false gospels, false prophets, and false teaching. I write on this thread because I love the One True God who speaks through biblical revelation as authoritative.

Ephesians 1:13:
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Jude 1:3:
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

Jude 1:22-24
Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

2 Timothy 2:10:
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

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