Pre dating religion question

BucephalusBB · Jun 9, 2008

+Xausted said:
BUT WHY?

why what? You know how religion started. Even asuming that there is a god, there are books out there written by humans. You can imagine that. So there were different religions. People started living to those religions. The first generation is was a book, the 2nd generation it was a law and the third generation it was life!

And then suddenly a tribe next to it has some people moving to their tribe and life was different from theirs.. "And who are you to tell me my life is wrong? My grandfather lived according to these rules and you are telling me that's impossible????"

As long as you keep those lives seperated from eachother, no problem. But in this world, it's not easy living seperate..

idea · Jun 9, 2008

I think we are all blind mice describing an elephant. One "true" elephant, but each of us only sees one part of it... not that I am a universalist - try to pick out what is true from what is not true...

People get angry at Mormons for "adding" onto the Bible - thinking somehow that God has only revealed Himself to the Jews.... That is one of the big points of our relig - He did not just reveal Himself to the Jews, and they are not the only ones to be able to write scripture.

from link
Joseph Smith said: “We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out as true ‘Mormons’.” “One of the grand fundamental principles of ‘Mormonism’ is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.”

From link
The Book of Mormon declares:
(1) that God speaks the “same words” to “all nations”;
(2) that He commands all nations to “write the words” he speaks to them; and
(3) that one day God’s words to all nations will be “gathered in one.”[ii]

It is difficult to overstate how radical a concept this was in Joseph Smith’s time and place. It shattered the conventional Christian view that God had spoken only to the ancient Israelites as recorded in the Bible. By declaring that God speaks to “all nations,” the Book of Mormon opened the cannon of scripture not only to make room for itself, but also to conceivably include books of scripture from India, China, and all over the globe.

comparisons:
Matthew 10:39 - [H]e that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
The Bhagavad Gita - “Through selfless service, you will always be fruitful and find the fulfillment of your desires”: this is the promise of the Creator.
Matt 5:44 - less them that curse you, do good to them that hate you.
The Dhammapada - Let us live in joy, never hating those who hate us.
Mark 9:35 - If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.
Tao Te Ching - If the sage wants to be above the people, in his words, he must put himself below them; If he wishes to be before the people, in his person, he must stand behind them.

Matthew 7:3 – And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
The Dhammapada - Do not give your attention to what others do or fail to do; give it to what you do or fail to do.
Luke 6:38 - Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom.
Tao Te Ching - The sage does not hoard. The more he does for others, the more he has himself; The more he gives to others, the more his own bounty increases.
Proverbs 23:7 -For as [a man] thinketh in his heart, so is he.
The Dhammapada - [W]e become what we think.
John 14:15, 15:4,10 - If ye love me, keep my commandments. Abide in me . . . . If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love.
The Bhagavad Gita - [T]hose who worship me with love live in me, and I come to life in them.
Proverbs 15:1- A soft answer turneth away wrath.
The Dhammapada - Speak quietly to everyone, and they too will be gentle in their speech.
Luke 14:11 - For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Tao Te Ching - The unyielding and mighty shall be brought low; the soft, supple, and delicate will be set above.
Proverbs 16:32 -He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.
The Dhammapada - One who conquers himself is greater than another who conquers a thousand times a thousand men on the battlefield.
D&C 38:16 -. . . I am no respecter of persons.
The Bhagavad Gita - . . . none are less dear to me and none are more dear.
2 Nephi 26:22 - [Y]ea, and [the devil] leadeth them by the neck with a flaxen cord, until he bindeth them with his strong cords forever.
The Dhammapada - Little by little a person becomes evil, as a water pot is filled by drops of water.
D&C 93:29 -Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
The Bhagavad Gita - There never has been a time when you . . . have not existed, nor will there be a time when we will cease to exist. The body is mortal, but he who dwells in the body is immortal and immeasurable.
Mosiah 4:30 - f ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, . . . ye must perish.
The Dhammapada - Guard your thoughts, words, and deeds. These three disciplines will speed you along the path to pure wisdom.

idea · Jun 9, 2008

Look closely - everyone understands the same prinicples... because they all come from the same source

more comparisons: C.S. Lewsi link
Appendix
Illustrations of the Tao

The following illustrations of the Natural Law are collected from such sources as come readily to the hand of one who is not a professional historian. The list makes no pretence of completeness. It will be noticed that writers such as Locke and Hooker, who wrote within the Christian tradition, are quoted side by side with the New Testament. This would, of course, be absurd if I were trying to collect independent testimonies to the Tao. But (1) I am not trying to prove its validity by the argument from common consent. Its validity cannot be deduced. For those who do not perceive its rationality, even universal consent could not prove it. (2) The idea of collecting independent testimonies presupposes that 'civilizations' have arisen in the world independently of one another; or even that humanity has had several independent emergences on this planet. The biology and anthropology involved in such an assumption are extremely doubtful. It is by no means certain that there has ever (in the sense required) been more than one civilization in all history. It is at least arguable that every civilization we find has been derived from another civilization and, in the last resort, from a single centre'carried' like an infectious disease or like the Apostolical succession.

I. The Law of General Beneficence

(a) NEGATIVE

'I have not slain men.' (Ancient Egyptian. From the Confession of the Righteous Soul, 'Book of the Dead', v. Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics [= ERE], vol. v, p. 478)
'Do not murder.' (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:13)
'Terrify not men or God will terrify thee.' (Ancient Egyptian. Precepts of Ptahhetep. H. R. Hall, Ancient History of the Near East, p. i3**n)
'In Nastrond (= Hell) I saw... murderers.' (Old Norse. Volospá 38, 39)
'I have not brought misery upon my fellows. I have not made the beginning of every day laborious in the sight of him who worked for me.' (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478)
'I have not been grasping.' (Ancient Egyptian. Ibid.) 'Who meditates oppression, his dwelling is overturned.' (Babylonian. Hymn to Samas. ERE v. 445)
'He who is cruel and calumnious has the character of a cat.' (Hindu. Laws of Manu. Janet, Histoire de la Science Politique, vol. i, p. 6)
'Slander not.' (Babylonian. Hymn to Samas. ERE v. 445)
'Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.' (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:16)
'Utter not a word by which anyone could be wounded.' (Hindu. Janet, p. 7)
'Has he ... driven an honest man from his family? broken up a well cemented clan?' (Babylonian. List of Sins from incantation tablets. ERE v. 446)
'I have not caused hunger. I have not caused weeping.' (Ancient Egyptian. ERE v. 478)
'Never do to others what you would not like them to do to you.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects of Confucius, trans. A. Waley, xv. 23; cf. xii. 2)
'Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart.' (Ancient Jewish. Leviticus 19:17) 'He whose heart is in the smallest degree set upon goodness will dislike no one.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, iv. 4)

(b) POSITIVE

'Nature urges that a man should wish human society to exist and should wish to enter it.' (Roman. Cicero, De Officiis, i. iv)
'By the fundamental Law of Nature Man [is] to be preserved as much as possible.' (Locke, Treatises of Civil Govt. ii. 3)
'When the people have multiplied, what next should be done for them? The Master said, Enrich them. Jan Ch'iu said, When one has enriched them, what next should be done for them? The Master said, Instruct them.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, xiii. 9)
'Speak kindness ... show good will.' (Babylonian. Hymn to Samas. ERE v. 445)
'Men were brought into existence for the sake of men that they might do one another good.' (Roman. Cicero. De Off. i. vii)
'Man is man's delight.' (Old Norse. Hávamál 47)
'He who is asked for alms should always give.' (Hindu. Janet, i. 7)
'What good man regards any misfortune as no concern of his?' (Roman. Juvenal xv. 140)
'I am a man: nothing human is alien to me.' (Roman. Terence, Heaut. Tim.)
'Love thy neighbour as thyself.' (Ancient Jewish. Leviticus 19:18)
'Love the stranger as thyself.' (Ancient Jewish. Ibid. 33, 34) 'Do to men what you wish men to do to you.' (Christian. Matthew 7:12)

2. The Law of Special Beneficence

'It is upon the trunk that a gentleman works. When that is firmly set up, the Way grows. And surely proper behaviour to parents and elder brothers is the trunk of goodness.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, i. 2)
'Brothers shall fight and be each others' bane.' (Old Norse. Account of the Evil Age before the World's end, Volospá 45)
'Has he insulted his elder sister?' (Babylonian. List of Sins. ERE v. 446)
'You will see them take care of their kindred [and] the children of their friends ... never reproaching them in the least.' (Redskin. Le Jeune, quoted ERE v. 437)
'Love thy wife studiously. Gladden her heart all thy life long.' (Ancient Egyptian. ERE v. 481)
'Nothing can ever change the claims of kinship for a right thinking man.' (Anglo-Saxon. Beowulf, 2600)
'Did not Socrates love his own children, though he did so as a free man and as one not forgetting that the gods have the first claim on our friendship?' (Greek, Epictetus, iii. 24)
'Natural affection is a thing right and according to Nature.' (Greek. Ibid. i. xi)
'I ought not to be unfeeling like a statue but should fulfil both my natural and artificial relations, as a worshipper, a son, a brother, a father, and a citizen.' (Greek. Ibid. 111. ii)
'This first I rede thee: be blameless to thy kindred. Take no vengeance even though they do thee wrong.' (Old Norse. Sigdrifumál, 22)
'Is it only the sons of Atreus who love their wives? For every good man, who is right-minded, loves and cherishes his own.' (Greek. Homer, Iliad, ix. 340)
'The union and fellowship of men will be best preserved if each receives from us the more kindness in proportion as he is more closely connected with us.' (Roman. Cicero. De Off. i. xvi)
'Part of us is claimed by our country, part by our parents, part by our friends.' (Roman. Ibid. i. vii)
'If a ruler ... compassed the salvation of the whole state, surely you would call him Good? The Master said, It would no longer be a matter of "Good". He would without doubt be a Divine Sage.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, vi. 28)
'Has it escaped you that, in the eyes of gods and good men, your native land deserves from you more honour, worship, and reverence than your mother and father and all your ancestors? That you should give a softer answer to its anger than to a father's anger? That if you cannot persuade it to alter its mind you must obey it in all quietness, whether it binds you or beats you or sends you to a war where you may get wounds or death?' (Greek. Plato, Crito, 51, a, b)
'If any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith.' (Christian. I Timothy 5:8) 'Put them in mind to obey magistrates.'... 'I exhort that prayers be made for kings and all that are in authority.' (Christian. Titus 3:1 and I Timothy 2:1, 2)

3. Duties to Parents, Elders, Ancestors

'Your father is an image of the Lord of Creation, your mother an image of the Earth. For him who fails to honour them, every work of piety is in vain. This is the first duty.' (Hindu. Janet, i. 9)
'Has he despised Father and Mother?' (Babylonian. List of Sins. ERE v. 446)
'I was a staff by my Father's side ... I went in and out at his command.' (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 481)
'Honour thy Father and thy Mother.' (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:12)
'To care for parents.' (Greek. List of duties in Epictetus, in. vii)
'Children, old men, the poor, and the sick, should be considered as the lords of the atmosphere.' (Hindu. Janet, i. 8)
'Rise up before the hoary head and honour the old man.' (Ancient Jewish. Leviticus 19:32)
'I tended the old man, I gave him my staff.' (Ancient Egyptian. ERE v. 481)
'You will see them take care ... of old men.' (Redskin. Le Jeune, quoted ERE v. 437)
'I have not taken away the oblations of the blessed dead.' (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478) 'When proper respect towards the dead is shown at the end and continued after they are far away, the moral force (tê) of a people has reached its highest point.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, i. 9)

idea · Jun 9, 2008

4. Duties to Children and Posterity

'Children, the old, the poor, etc. should be considered as lords of the atmosphere.' (Hindu. Janet, i. 8)
'To marry and to beget children.' (Greek. List of duties. Epictetus, in. vii)
'Can you conceive an Epicurean commonwealth? . . . What will happen? Whence is the population to be kept up? Who will educate them? Who will be Director of Adolescents? Who will be Director of Physical Training? What will be taught?' (Greek. Ibid.)
'Nature produces a special love of offspring' and 'To live according to Nature is the supreme good.' (Roman. Cicero, De Off. i. iv, and De Legibus, i. xxi)
'The second of these achievements is no less glorious than the first; for while the first did good on one occasion, the second will continue to benefit the state for ever.' (Roman. Cicero. De Off. i. xxii)
'Great reverence is owed to a child.' (Roman. Juvenal, xiv. 47)
'The Master said, Respect the young.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, ix. 22) 'The killing of the women and more especially of the young boys and girls who are to go to make up the future strength of the people, is the saddest part... and we feel it very sorely.' (Redskin. Account of the Battle of Wounded Knee. ERE v. 432)
5. The Law of Justice

(a) SEXUAL JUSTICE

'Has he approached his neighbour's wife?' (Babylonian. List of Sins. ERE v. 446)
'Thou shalt not commit adultery.' (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:14) 'I saw in Nastrond (= Hell)... beguilers of others' wives.' (Old Norse. Volospá 38, 39)

(b) HONESTY

'Has he drawn false boundaries?' (Babylonian. List of Sins. ERE v. 446)
'To wrong, to rob, to cause to be robbed.' (Babylonian. Ibid.)
'I have not stolen.' (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478)
'Thou shalt not steal.' (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:15)
'Choose loss rather than shameful gains.' (Greek. Chilon Fr. 10. Diels)
'Justice is the settled and permanent intention of rendering to each man his rights.' (Roman. Justinian, Institutions, I. i)
'If the native made a "find" of any kind (e.g., a honey tree) and marked it, it was thereafter safe for him, as far as his own tribesmen were concerned, no matter how long he left it.' (Australian Aborigines. ERE v. 441) 'The first point of justice is that none should do any mischief to another unless he has first been attacked by the other's wrongdoing. The second is that a man should treat common property as common property, and private property as his own. There is no such thing as private property by nature, but things have become private either through prior occupation (as when men of old came into empty territory) or by conquest, or law, or agreement, or stipulation, or casting lots.' (Roman. Cicero, De Off. I. vii)

(c) JUSTICE IN COURT, &C.

'Whoso takes no bribe ... well pleasing is this to Samas.' (Babylonian. ERE v. 445)
'I have not traduced the slave to him who is set over him.' (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478)
'Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.' (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:16)
'Regard him whom thou knowest like him whom thou knowest not.' (Ancient Egyptian. ERE v. 482) 'Do no unrighteousness in judgement. You must not consider the fact that one party is poor nor the fact that the other is a great man.' (Ancient Jewish. Leviticus 19:15)

6. The Law of Good Faith and Veracity

'A sacrifice is obliterated by a lie and the merit of alms by an act of fraud.' (Hindu. Janet, i. 6)
'Whose mouth, full of lying, avails not before thee: thou burnest their utterance.' (Babylonian. Hymn to Samas. ERE v. 445)
'With his mouth was he full of Yea, in his heart full of Nay? (Babylonian. ERE v. 446)
'I have not spoken falsehood.' (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478)
'I sought no trickery, nor swore false oaths.' (Anglo-Saxon. Beowulf, 2738)
'The Master said, Be of unwavering good faith.' (Ancient
Chinese. Analects, viii. 13)
'In Nastrond (= Hell) I saw the perjurers.' (Old Norse. Volospá 39)
'Hateful to me as are the gates of Hades is that man who says one thing, and hides another in his heart.' (Greek. Homer. Iliad, ix. 312)
'The foundation of justice is good faith.' (Roman. Cicero, De Off. i.vii)
'[The gentleman] must learn to be faithful to his superiors and to keep promises.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, i. 8) 'Anything is better than treachery.' (Old Norse. Hávamál 124)

7. The Law of Mercy

'The poor and the sick should be regarded as lords of the atmosphere.' (Hindu. Janet, i. 8)
'Whoso makes intercession for the weak, well pleasing is this to Samas.' (Babylonian. ERE v. 445)
'Has he failed to set a prisoner free?' (Babylonian. List of Sins. ERE v. 446)
'I have given bread to the hungry, water to the thirsty, clothes to the naked, a ferry boat to the boatless.'
(Ancient Egyptian. ERE v. 446)
'One should never strike a woman; not even with a flower.' (Hindu. Janet, i. 8)
'There, Thor, you got disgrace, when you beat women.' (Old Norse. Hárbarthsljóth 38)
'In the Dalebura tribe a woman, a cripple from birth, was carried about by the tribes-people in turn until her death at the age of sixty-six.'... 'They never desert the sick.' (Australian Aborigines. ERE v. 443)
'You will see them take care of... widows, orphans, and old men, never reproaching them.' (Redskin. ERE v. 439)
'Nature confesses that she has given to the human race the tenderest hearts, by giving us the power to weep. This is the best part of us.' (Roman. Juvenal, xv. 131)
'They said that he had been the mildest and gentlest of the kings of the world.' (Anglo-Saxon. Praise of the hero in Beowulf, 3180) 'When thou cuttest down thine harvest... and hast forgot a sheaf... thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.' (Ancient Jewish. Deuteronomy 24:19)

idea · Jun 9, 2008

8. The Law of Magnanimity

(a)

'There are two kinds of injustice: the first is found in those who do an injury, the second in those who fail to protect another from injury when they can.' (Roman. Cicero, De Off. I. vii)
'Men always knew that when force and injury was offered they might be defenders of themselves; they knew that howsoever men may seek their own commodity, yet if this were done with injury unto others it was not to be suffered, but by all men and by all good means to be withstood.' (English. Hooker, Laws of Eccl. Polity, I. ix. 4)
'To take no notice of a violent attack is to strengthen the heart of the enemy. Vigour is valiant, but cowardice is vile.' (Ancient Egyptian. The Pharaoh Senusert III, cit. H. R. Hall, Ancient History of the Near East, p. 161)
'They came to the fields of joy, the fresh turf of the Fortunate Woods and the dwellings of the Blessed . . . here was the company of those who had suffered wounds fighting for their fatherland.' (Roman. Virgil, Aeneid, vi. 638-9, 660)
'Courage has got to be harder, heart the stouter, spirit the sterner, as our strength weakens. Here lies our lord, cut to pieces, out best man in the dust. If anyone thinks of leaving this battle, he can howl forever.' (Anglo-Saxon. Maldon, 312)
'Praise and imitate that man to whom, while life is pleasing, death is not grievous.' (Stoic. Seneca, Ep. liv) 'The Master said, Love learning and if attacked be ready to die for the Good Way.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, viii. 13)

(b)

'Death is to be chosen before slavery and base deeds.' (Roman. Cicero, De Off. i, xxiii)
'Death is better for every man than life with shame.' (Anglo-Saxon. Beowulf, 2890)
'Nature and Reason command that nothing uncomely, nothing effeminate, nothing lascivious be done or thought.' (Roman. Cicero, De Off. i. iv)
'We must not listen to those who advise us "being men to think human thoughts, and being mortal to think mortal thoughts," but must put on immortality as much as is possible and strain every nerve to live according to that best part of us, which, being small in bulk, yet much more in its power and honour surpasses all else.' (Ancient Greek. Aristotle, Eth. Nic. 1177 B)
'The soul then ought to conduct the body, and the spirit of our minds the soul. This is therefore the first Law, whereby the highest power of the mind requireth obedience at the hands of all the rest.' (Hooker, op. cit. i. viii. 6)
'Let him not desire to die, let him not desire to live, let him wait for his time ... let him patiently bear hard words, entirely abstaining from bodily pleasures.' (Ancient Indian. Laws of Manu. ERE ii. 98) 'He who is unmoved, who has restrained his senses ... is said to be devoted. As a flame in a windless place that flickers not, so is the devoted.' (Ancient Indian. Bhagavad gita. ERE ii 90)

(c)

'Is not the love of Wisdom a practice of death?' (Ancient Greek. Plato, Phadeo, 81 A)
'I know that I hung on the gallows for nine nights, wounded with the spear as a sacrifice to Odin, myself offered to Myself.' (Old Norse. Hávamál, I. 10 in Corpus Poeticum Boreale; stanza 139 in Hildebrand's Lieder der Älteren Edda. 1922) 'Verily, verily I say to you unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone, but if it dies it bears much fruit. He who loves his life loses it.' (Christian. John 12:24,25)

The Abolition of Man by C.S. Lewis

Men Without Chests
The Way
The Abolition of Man
Appendix-Illustrations of the Tao

+Xausted · Jun 9, 2008

Bouncing Ball said:
why what? You know how religion started. Even asuming that there is a god, there are books out there written by humans. You can imagine that. So there were different religions. People started living to those religions. The first generation is was a book, the 2nd generation it was a law and the third generation it was life!

And then suddenly a tribe next to it has some people moving to their tribe and life was different from theirs.. "And who are you to tell me my life is wrong? My grandfather lived according to these rules and you are telling me that's impossible????"

As long as you keep those lives seperated from eachother, no problem. But in this world, it's not easy living seperate..

Why if there is only one god do other people not recognise that and either follow the same religion or tolorate each others. Why do people think their religion is right and others are wrong. it makes a mockery of it IMHO.

No one seems to be understanding what I am asking . I know I dont phrase things well, but even i am sure that I am not being that unclear. It seems to me that my question can not be answered therefore this just seems to confirm my opinion of religion. And that isnt what I set out to do on this thread

But thanks for trying anyway

Storm · Jun 9, 2008

Try rephrasing one more time, Jayne.

+Xausted · Jun 9, 2008

idea said:
8. The Law of Magnanimity

(a)

'There are two kinds of injustice: the first is found in those who do an injury, the second in those who fail to protect another from injury when they can.' (Roman. Cicero, De Off. I. vii)
'Men always knew that when force and injury was offered they might be defenders of themselves; they knew that howsoever men may seek their own commodity, yet if this were done with injury unto others it was not to be suffered, but by all men and by all good means to be withstood.' (English. Hooker, Laws of Eccl. Polity, I. ix. 4)
'To take no notice of a violent attack is to strengthen the heart of the enemy. Vigour is valiant, but cowardice is vile.' (Ancient Egyptian. The Pharaoh Senusert III, cit. H. R. Hall, Ancient History of the Near East, p. 161)
'They came to the fields of joy, the fresh turf of the Fortunate Woods and the dwellings of the Blessed . . . here was the company of those who had suffered wounds fighting for their fatherland.' (Roman. Virgil, Aeneid, vi. 638-9, 660)
'Courage has got to be harder, heart the stouter, spirit the sterner, as our strength weakens. Here lies our lord, cut to pieces, out best man in the dust. If anyone thinks of leaving this battle, he can howl forever.' (Anglo-Saxon. Maldon, 312)
'Praise and imitate that man to whom, while life is pleasing, death is not grievous.' (Stoic. Seneca, Ep. liv) 'The Master said, Love learning and if attacked be ready to die for the Good Way.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, viii. 13)

(b)

'Death is to be chosen before slavery and base deeds.' (Roman. Cicero, De Off. i, xxiii)
'Death is better for every man than life with shame.' (Anglo-Saxon. Beowulf, 2890)
'Nature and Reason command that nothing uncomely, nothing effeminate, nothing lascivious be done or thought.' (Roman. Cicero, De Off. i. iv)
'We must not listen to those who advise us "being men to think human thoughts, and being mortal to think mortal thoughts," but must put on immortality as much as is possible and strain every nerve to live according to that best part of us, which, being small in bulk, yet much more in its power and honour surpasses all else.' (Ancient Greek. Aristotle, Eth. Nic. 1177 B)
'The soul then ought to conduct the body, and the spirit of our minds the soul. This is therefore the first Law, whereby the highest power of the mind requireth obedience at the hands of all the rest.' (Hooker, op. cit. i. viii. 6)
'Let him not desire to die, let him not desire to live, let him wait for his time ... let him patiently bear hard words, entirely abstaining from bodily pleasures.' (Ancient Indian. Laws of Manu. ERE ii. 98) 'He who is unmoved, who has restrained his senses ... is said to be devoted. As a flame in a windless place that flickers not, so is the devoted.' (Ancient Indian. Bhagavad gita. ERE ii 90)

(c)

'Is not the love of Wisdom a practice of death?' (Ancient Greek. Plato, Phadeo, 81 A)
'I know that I hung on the gallows for nine nights, wounded with the spear as a sacrifice to Odin, myself offered to Myself.' (Old Norse. Hávamál, I. 10 in Corpus Poeticum Boreale; stanza 139 in Hildebrand's Lieder der Älteren Edda. 1922) 'Verily, verily I say to you unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone, but if it dies it bears much fruit. He who loves his life loses it.' (Christian. John 12:24,25)

The Abolition of Man by C.S. Lewis

Men Without Chests

The Way

The Abolition of Man

Appendix-Illustrations of the Tao

sorry, but what on earth is this to do with my questions?

+Xausted · Jun 9, 2008

Storm said:
Try rephrasing one more time, Jayne.

ARHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
will get back to you on it. I have to go and get the kids from school, and I will try and clarify my thoughts on the journey

Storm · Jun 9, 2008

Sorry. I'll just go back and answer the OP and you can tell me whether I misunderstood or not.

idea · Jun 9, 2008

+Xausted said:
Why if there is only one god do other people not recognise that and either follow the same religion or tolorate each others. Why do people think their religion is right and others are wrong. it makes a mockery of it IMHO.

No one seems to be understanding what I am asking . I know I dont phrase things well, but even i am sure that I am not being that unclear. It seems to me that my question can not be answered therefore this just seems to confirm my opinion of religion. And that isnt what I set out to do on this thread

But thanks for trying anyway

Pride ... "I'm better than you are". If we could just be humble, we would not need to be the "only" ones with truth.

Storm · Jun 9, 2008

+Xausted said:
Right, unlike my normal sarcastic self, this is a genuine question.
I really do not understand how religious groups of all kinds can believe that their religion is the one true religion.

Humans like to feel superior to each other.

Where was God prior to the start of their religion?

I don't believe God cares very much about our religions. It must care a little bit, or we wouldn't have them, but it certainly hasn't singled one out as right. I believe this is because none of them are.

BucephalusBB · Jun 9, 2008

+Xausted said:
Why if there is only one god do other people not recognise that and either follow the same religion or tolorate each others. Why do people think their religion is right and others are wrong. it makes a mockery of it IMHO.

Up untill you are 12 years old or I don't know, it's uninterresting thinking about religion. Yet from when you were 4 years old people told you exactly what and how it was/is. It becomes part of your life.

Let me ask you, if people started living in your country telling you blue is actually red. None of you both can really proof that it's red or blue so you leave it at that.
Suddenly more and more people are telling you it's red. Yet your own friends and family still knows it's blue. In a while you'll see blue shirts in shops with the description "red shirt"! They are idiots, because you see blue, there is nothing red about it. You know better..

And then you are starting your own factory for nice blue shirts. While making the campaign, your partners walks to you.. "wait a minute, the commercial says "blue shirts", you forgot that it's red silly.. But I changed it for you..no worries.."

I know, I keep giving half and stupid examples, but I am just trying to give you a start here :flirt:

Magic Man · Jun 9, 2008

+Xausted said:
Right, unlike my normal sarcastic self, this is a genuine question.
I really do not understand how religious groups of all kinds can believe that their religion is the one true religion.
For simply this reason:
Where was God prior to the start of their religion? Could He just not be bothered to show up to the other millions of people that have been on this earth for so many years before? Did these people not matter to Him?
I am probably showing an immense amount of stupidity with this question, however I just can not seem to understand it.

(I am aware that Hinduism is one of the earliest known religions that has roots pre dating any records, so can all Hindu's stop shouting at me mentally in this thread)

I think some religions that believe themselves to be the one true religion think that there were no people before "God's people". It might not make sense to you, but that is their thinking sometimes. Other than that, I think most religions don't purport to be the one, true religion. Religions like Christianity seem to either think that there were no people before the Jews, as in Bible fundamentalists, or that it is their job, they were chosen by God, to spread the word to all of those other people. That means that God decided that they were the best way for all of those other people to learn about him.

I hope that responds to the right question. If not, let me know.

+Xausted · Jun 9, 2008

idea said:
Pride ... "I'm better than you are". If we could just be humble, we would not need to be the "only" ones with truth.

I have asked a question that you have not even attempted to answer. I am not as stupid as I come across, and playing with words and quotes does not impress me or enlighten me. I have an immense dislike for people that try to @play semantics' on me, when the truth is they don't know the answer, but would rather baffle someone than admit that.
This comment is not meant to be rude, just stating it as I see it

+Xausted · Jun 9, 2008

Bouncing Ball said:
Up untill you are 12 years old or I don't know, it's uninterresting thinking about religion. Yet from when you were 4 years old people told you exactly what and how it was/is. It becomes part of your life.

Let me ask you, if people started living in your country telling you blue is actually red. None of you both can really proof that it's red or blue so you leave it at that.
Suddenly more and more people are telling you it's red. Yet your own friends and family still knows it's blue. In a while you'll see blue shirts in shops with the description "red shirt"! They are idiots, because you see blue, there is nothing red about it. You know better..

And then you are starting your own factory for nice blue shirts. While making the campaign, your partners walks to you.. "wait a minute, the commercial says "blue shirts", you forgot that it's red silly.. But I changed it for you..no worries.."

I know, I keep giving half and stupid examples, but I am just trying to give you a start here :flirt:

So is God/religion red or blue then?

+Xausted · Jun 9, 2008

mball1297 said:
I think some religions that believe themselves to be the one true religion think that there were no people before "God's people". It might not make sense to you, but that is their thinking sometimes.
It doesnt make sense i agree, as that just seems to ignore the truth that is staring them in the face. I accept that is what people do believe, I just didn't think some were that naive and blinkered. Thankyou for at least clarifying some part for me
Other than that, I think most religions don't purport to be the one, true religion. Religions like Christianity seem to either think that there were no people before the Jews, as in Bible fundamentalists, or that it is their job, they were chosen by God, to spread the word to all of those other people. That means that God decided that they were the best way for all of those other people to learn about him.
Then if they don't why are there religious wars/arguements etc?Why do people make such a fuss about there creeds and practisesbeing the right ones? Why say is Kapztur not a follower of the Jewish faith, and Dallasapple not a follower of the Mormon faith? (sorry guys for using you, just pulled your name out of my head, and I dont actually mean you personnally) with this theory?
This also just shows mans vanity, that somehow they were chosen by the supreme Being, as opposed to others. Are men not meant to have been created equally?

I hope that responds to the right question. If not, let me know.

This is actually the closest anyone has come to answering my question, but there is still a long way to go. Please bear with my stupidity

Magic Man · Jun 9, 2008

+Xausted said:
Please bear with my stupidity

I always do.

The other thing to keep in mind is that we're all different. We all have different takes on things, including religion. One person will read the Bible and get one thing out of it, and another, while still believing in it, will get a completely different thing. They see things differently, so they believe different things. That's why Katzpur and Dallas differ.

The holy wars in the past were products of those religions who claim to be the one true religion for the reasons I detailed. It is also, as people have said the ego of it. "Yuo're wrong, I'm right. You disagree with me, so I'll kill you!"

idea · Jun 9, 2008

+Xausted said:
Right, unlike my normal sarcastic self, this is a genuine question.
I really do not understand how religious groups of all kinds can believe that their religion is the one true religion.
For simply this reason:
Where was God prior to the start of their religion?

prior? there would be no "prior". The "true" religion is as old as God is....
As for this world, Adam and Eve knew about Jesus and the entire plan of salvation.

Could He just not be bothered to show up to the other millions of people that have been on this earth for so many years before? Did these people not matter to Him?

I tried to show that He has and continues to reveal Himself to all nations, kindreds, and tongues. All people matter to Him. He has revealed Himself to all people.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
just different names for the same thing - perhaps this is where the confusion started... translate languages or not, we still cannot understand one another...

Gen 11
5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Willamena · Jun 9, 2008

+Xausted said:
Why if there is only one god do other people not recognise that and either follow the same religion or tolorate each others. Why do people think their religion is right and others are wrong. it makes a mockery of it IMHO.

Many do recognize that there is one God with many images. The images of God that we hold are not the god.

It seems to me the answer to your question is: that's what they were taught.

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