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Christians: Where do you draw the line?
- Thread starter Captain Civic
- Start date
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I'm just curious then, Khale, are loving, compassionate Muslims Christians? Are loving, compassionate Hindus Christians? Are loving, compassionate atheists Christians? I see what you're getting at, but a lot of people demonstrate many of the qualities Christ exemplified without believing that He was the Son of God. That kind of sounds to me as if you're saying that all good people should be called Christians.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Of course I do.
Of course trying to avoid sin is a personal thing for me.
If something hinders you in becoming a better person, by all means throw it off. Just don't assume that the same things that hinder you hinder me.
Maybe I don't even understand what you're getting at, Pete. Maybe that's my problem.
Again, you lost me. Are you saying that knowledge is a sin?
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Well it beats the anal myopia of following others so closely and without question that your nose is up their butt!
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
You just don't get it. The Pharisees had this to the MAX. I can't believe that you would exchange the FREEDOM found in Christ for another set of man made rules!
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
What I say is of little consequence. The scripture says it rather nicely: Knowledge often leads to arrogance. Love is a far better way to deal with others.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
It's not me who misunderstands. When Paul railed against "the law", he wasn't saying that we ought to jettison standards for behavior or useful spiritual disciplines to train us in righteousness. He was saying that all people, Jews and Greeks alike, are counted as people of God not based on pedigree (descent from Abraham) or on the marks of circumcision, but on the basis of their confession of faith in Jesus. Having done that, we ought not to once again set the boundaries of the community of faith based on particular practices. Thus, the community of faith is defined not by adherence to Mosaic law (or to any other) but by commitment to Jesus. That is entirely compatible with that community setting forth standards of behavior and expecting its members to toe the line. It's also consistent with that community training itself with spiritual disciplines. Failure to engage in those spiritual disciplines is a recipe for license. And scripture tells us not to allow our freedom to become an excuse of licence.
Arrow
Member
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Now we are discussing the difference between "traditions" and "God's Law". Traditions of men are FINE as long as they are treated as TRADITIONS of men (non-binding). Unfortunately, they almost always grow in stature and importance and seem to ultimately REPLACE God's Laws for many denominations.
To that end, we see people waste time on justifying these traditions as being essential for the community as you are now doing. Our focus should be LOVE... not rules. I am going to keep that!
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Sure. There's a quote from Paul that says "It's for freedom that you have been set free, so do not subject yourselves to a yoke of slavery." The Law of God was originally given to the Jews at Mount Sinai, as God's gift to them after a profound act of deliverance (redemption) from slavery in Egypt. Ironically, that very same law had become a new slavemaster for Israel because it pointed out and condemned their sin. As a result, Israel couldn't fulfill their divine mandate to be the solution to the problem of sin. They were trapped in sin by a sinless law! It was their "yoke of slavery." Yet, some Jewish Christians continued to insist that the law, in particular dietary regulations and the requirement of circumcision, was binding on all Christian converts. Paul was advising them not to do so.
Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, had fulfilled the law, and his death and resurrection had freed his people (and thus the world) from the yoke of slavery, the law. Now, some people think that this means, "Great, we can do what we want." Or as Paul expressed this attitude (which he didn't share), "Let us sin so that grace may abound." In other words, some people think that because Jesus freed us from the law, we can live however we want.
But that's simply a misreading of Paul. The category of "people of God" is no longer delineated by adherence to a particular set of laws, a particular geographical territory, or what have you. Rather this category is defined by fidelity to the Jewish Messiah, Jesus, regardless of nationality, geography, or previous religious commitment. THAT's Paul's point about freedom from the law. Paul's point is NOT that the law is irrelevant or that Christians can live however they want.
It's a bit of a long-winded explanation, but I hope it serves.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Certain traditions are essential. Communion and baptism and confession and forgiveness and all that are not optional. These things train us to love. I agree that love is the focus, the goal, the purpose of our lives. But we need training to do that. The spiritual disciplines (call them "rules" if you like) cultivate love. If you ignore them, you may talk love, but you are not training yourself in it.
So they can't possibly replace love. But they are essential and therefore not negotiable.
Arrow
Member
If we are not free to do what we want, then why did Christ die? I think Paul stresses it so much because he knows what people are going to do when you tell them the law no longer applies. However, the catch is that true faith evokes the actions. Faith in part means "to be set on something." It is hard to serve two masters and love both. Faith in God will automatically lead someone to imitate the actions of Jesus and seek after Him further. Lately, it just seems to me that God cares less and less about His people following the law and more and more about following Him. Though closely related, there is world of difference.
In short, a Christian life will take part in traditions because he/she wants to imitate the life of Christ, but this would not mean that they are required.
We do need training, but rules do not train people to love. Laws are here to expose our sin and keep us living a beneficial life. As Paul says all things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. I feel that the law directs us to the more helpful life, but it is our faith in Christ that breeds and trains the love. How could anything else?
Do not get me wrong though. I absolutely love traditions. There is nothing more beautiful than communion and what it obviously stands for.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Whoa! Hold everything! Are you saying that Christ died so that we would be free to do whatever we want?
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
He died in order to fuse the Gentiles and the Jews into one righteous people. We are not free to sin. That way lies licence.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Huh? Howzat?
Spiritual disciplines (prayer, study, good works, confession, repentance, communion, baptism....) train us to love. You can call these "rules" if you want because they are certainly not negotiable side issues. They are central and required. If you don't do them, you're not practicing a Christian life. It's really that simple.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Traditions are by definition NOT essential. They are only essential for those who wish to maintain power over the supplicants.
ayani
member
but i do think that one has to hear His call, and decide to follow Him. He came to make disciples of all nations, and give God's peace and life to those who believe in Him, not simply to preach good ideals independent of His life and ministry. if one is to be a disciple, one must trust Him, believe in Him, learn about His life, and with God's help speak the good news about His death and resurrection and grace to others.
for me, that is the heart of being a Christian.
Scott1
Well-Known Member
What about 2 Thess. 2:15 Pete?
Or the tradition of Sunday sabbath/worship?
Just wondering.