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The rewards of incest

Pah

Uber all member
In the leaving of Sodom, Lot was with his daughters who, when he was drunk, had incestuous sex with him. The two sons, issue of this incest, went on to found the Ammonite and Moabite nations. From the Ammonite tribe, Solomon took a wife who gave Solomon a son, Rehoboam who became the King of all Israel upon Solomon’s death.

From Daily Bible Study, Rehoboam

The Division A Punishment For Solomon's Apostasy

Although the division of the Israelites was accomplished by means of the foolishness of Rehoboam, it was actually decreed by God beforehand for a purpose -

"And at that time, when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him on the road. Now Ahijah had clad himself with a new garment; and the two of them were alone in the open country. Then Ahijah laid hold of the new garment that was on him, and tore it into twelve pieces. And he said to Jeroboam, "Take for yourself ten pieces; for thus says The Lord, the God of Israel, 'Behold, I am about to tear the kingdom from the hand of Solomon, and will give you ten tribes, but he shall have one tribe, for the sake of My servant David and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, because he has forsaken Me, and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the Ammonites, and has not walked in My ways, doing what is right in My sight and keeping My statutes and My ordinances, as David his father did. Nevertheless I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand; but I will make him ruler all the days of his life, for the sake of David My servant whom I chose, who kept My commandments and My statutes; but I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it to you, ten tribes." (1 Kings 11:29-35 RSV)

Israel's Kingdoms

The United Kingdom of Israel lasted through the reigns of Saul, David and Solomon. After Solomon died, the kingdom split into two, the ten tribes (Reuben, Simeon, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh) and Benjamin) of "Israel" with their capital up in Samaria, and the tribes of Benjamin and Judah forming the kingdom of "Judah" with their capital at Jerusalem.

The northern kingdom of Israel lasted a little over 200 years before it was gradually conquered by the Assyrians, and by 721 B.C. they had practically all been taken into exile to Assyria (2 Kings 17:1-23). The vast majority of them never returned, and have become known as the "Lost Ten Tribes of Israel."

Then, about 135 years later, in 586 B.C., the southern kingdom of Judah was conquered by the Babylonians, and the Jews were taken into captivity to Babylon. The original Temple of God in Jerusalem was destroyed at that time. The people of the southern kingdom of Judah however did return after the Babylonians fell to the Persians, and their descendants have become the Jewish people of today.

Although Leviticus forbids incest, it seems that, in the Old Testament, there was a great reward for its commission.
 

Pah

Uber all member
kc8tbe said:
Sounds like another biblical contradiction. Perhaps you should submit it to this site.

It's already there though it is mentioned in terms of "family values" instead of the prohibition in Leviticus

There is another incestual story - Tamar and her father-in-law, Judah. Although he thought he was only going with a prostitute she knew he was the father of her husband She bore him twin sons.
 
I will note that what Lot's daughters did was wrong and that Lot did not have sex with them willingly, but under influence. Again, in the case of Tamer, this was also the case.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
wouldn't incest be involved with the biblical spread of humanity anyway?

After all you have only two humans to begin with, so incest must have been nessisary.

Unless god made more than 2 humans to begin with...

eaven in the case of Noah, there simply wern't enough people on the Ark to provide a non-insestuous/ non- inbreeding population....

The general rule of thumb is a minimum population of 50 individuals for viablility.

in case you want a resource just to make shure I'm not 'making things up':
http://faculty.plattsburgh.edu/thomas.wolosz/smallpopulations.htm
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~haddad/zo592/Genetics_notes.html

wa:do
 

Pah

Uber all member
LCMS Sprecher said:
I will note that what Lot's daughters did was wrong and that Lot did not have sex with them willingly, but under influence. Again, in the case of Tamer, this was also the case.

It seems that "doing wrong" has it rewards - in this case an important biblical lineage.
 
Is it a reward to have a lineage? I don't follow your reasoning. Incest did not create all the nations of the world. I also think that the Ammonites and Moabites were both pagan nations. So they lived in ignorance of God's law just like their "mothers" did.
 

Pah

Uber all member
LCMS Sprecher said:
Is it a reward to have a lineage? I don't follow your reasoning. Incest did not create all the nations of the world. I also think that the Ammonites and Moabites were both pagan nations. So they lived in ignorance of God's law just like their "mothers" did.

Did you not read the opening post? A woman became the wife of Solomon whose son was the King of the chosen, Rehoboam who was in the line of Joesph husband to Mary, mother of Jesus. It is intregal to trying to show a phrophecy forefilled. Matt 1:7-16
 
I know that pah. You also note that Solomon took many many many wifes (in the hundreds) and many more concubines (also in the hundreds). Many of these women were from pagan nations. The fact that Rehoboam came from a pagan mother is not a surprise. I would also question where you are going with this. Are you trying to say that Jesus is a descendant of Lot or something of that nature?
 

Pah

Uber all member
LCMS Sprecher said:
I know that pah. You also note that Solomon took many many many wifes (in the hundreds) and many more concubines (also in the hundreds). Many of these women were from pagan nations. The fact that Rehoboam came from a pagan mother is not a surprise. I would also question where you are going with this. Are you trying to say that Jesus is a descendant of Lot or something of that nature?


Without the incest there would not have been a tribe

Without the tribe there would not have been a particular wife for Solomon to have sired an ancestor of Jesus.

Do you think God has no foreknowledge?
 
painted wolf said:
wouldn't incest be involved with the biblical spread of humanity anyway?

After all you have only two humans to begin with, so incest must have been nessisary.

Unless god made more than 2 humans to begin with...

eaven in the case of Noah, there simply wern't enough people on the Ark to provide a non-insestuous/ non- inbreeding population....

The general rule of thumb is a minimum population of 50 individuals for viablility.

in case you want a resource just to make shure I'm not 'making things up':
http://faculty.plattsburgh.edu/thomas.wolosz/smallpopulations.htm
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~haddad/zo592/Genetics_notes.html

wa:do

I agree with painted wolf.

I think God prefers non-incestuous procreation, but I think it was necessary in a few cases throughout the history of the Bible. It is wrong today because it is not necessary like it was in those select cases.
 

Pah

Uber all member
David Jones,
"I think God prefers non-incestuous procreation, but I think it was necessary in a few cases throughout the history of the Bible. It is wrong today because it is not necessary like it was in those select cases."

With God it was never neccessary. He could just gather some more dirt and harvest some more ribs.
 
pah said:
With God it was never neccessary. He could just gather some more dirt and harvest some more ribs.

So is this what God did when it came time for Adam and Eve's children to have thier own children? Did He "gather some more dirt and harvest some more ribs?" I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not - but if not, please explain how Adam and Eve's children had children without incest...
 

Pah

Uber all member
David Jones said:
pah said:
With God it was never neccessary. He could just gather some more dirt and harvest some more ribs.

So is this what God did when it came time for Adam and Eve's children to have thier own children? Did He "gather some more dirt and harvest some more ribs?" I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not - but if not, please explain how Adam and Eve's children had children without incest...

I'm sorry I was being so facetious in the example. I've been told by apologeticists that if there is not a definite answer to a biblical question, to not assume the worst case scenario. What you and Painted Wolf are doing is to ascribe a human expalantion when, in fact, there may be another that only God knows about.

Geez, ya got me defending God.
 

CoolMan

New Member
pah said:
I've been told by apologeticists that if there is not a definite answer to a biblical question, to not assume the worst case scenario. What you and Painted Wolf are doing is to ascribe a human expalantion when, in fact, there may be another that only God knows about.

I agree with that theory, about not assuming the worst case scenario. I also agree that there may be another explanation that only God knows about. Well said.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Was not Abraham married to Sarah his half-sister and was not their progeny the beginning of the "chosen people'?

Was not Jacob married to two daughters of his uncle - first cousins in other words (and forced to marry the eldest before he could have the one he chose)?
 

kc8tbe

Member
Yes.... from a secular standpoint, I think the reasoning behind this had to do with preserving a clean bloodline. Only have sex with people who you know are safe - inbreeding is better than sexually transmitted diseases.

To argue that there may be solutions that only God can understand defeats the point of debate. This is a debate forum, let's keep it that way.
 

Irenicas

high overlord of sod all
Incest has always been a tricky issue, mainly because of the nasty biological after effects... but especially now, in an age of near perfect contraception, it does not seem to be immoral for any particular reason. I would be very interested in seeing what people's actual logical moral problems are with incest.
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
kc8tbe said, "Sounds like another biblical contradiction"

I dont' believe that this is a very accurate statement, I think you all are forgetting that all the events that you have submetted (Lot's daughters, Noah's family, Abraham, etc.) took place before Leviticus (a.k.a jewish law) was even written. God Forbids incest later in Leviticus probably because it was not necessary any more. It might have been necessary during the times of Adam, or Noah, and it most likely was not forbidden because of its apperrant need for spreading the human race. So maybe God let it occur when it was necessary, and then condemned it when it was not.

Those are just my thoughts though. Anyone else?
 
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