LDS Church To Talk With Gay Advocacy Group

Katzpur said:

Now you're playing word games, which is far more touchy than my position. All I'm saying is that the Church has never said that it is a sin to be homosexual. It's a sin to engage in sexual relations outside of marriage. Since the Church believes that marriage is to be between a man and a woman, your question about married homosexuals is pointless. I don't personally feel as if we choose our sexual orientation, but I do believe we choose our behavior, and it's our behavior for which we will be judged.

Click to expand...

I'm only playing word games because the words are becoming important. The "Sexual relations outside of marriage are what's sinful" stand is only going to be true as long as there are no homosexual marriages. If there are, then you've got to add the caveat "and homosexual marriages don't count as marriage". But, if you are going to do that, why not just come out and say it in the first place: Homosexual relations are sinful in and of themselves. Heterosexual relations are sinful outside of marriage.

I agree that it is behavior that matters, not orientation. I don't recall saying otherwise. It's just that the argument of "it's a sin just like any sex outside of marriage" is going the way of the dodo in the culture we live in. Trying to side-step the issue is just going to cause more confusion.

Bishka said:

'

If you've actually read the thread, some of us aren't actually talking about "relations," we were referring to thoughts and feelings. As far as I'm concerned I wasn't aware those were sins.

Click to expand...

Alma 12:14 -
For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence.

Click to expand...

Mosiah 4:29-30
And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them.
But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish. And now, O man, remember, and perish not.

Click to expand...

None of us are in a position to be "thought police" for anyone but ourselves - but if you don't think you will be held accountable for your thoughts, you are going to be in for a rude awakening.

SoyLeche said:

None of us are in a position to be "thought police" for anyone but ourselves - but if you don't think you will be held accountable for your thoughts, you are going to be in for a rude awakening.

Click to expand...

When is a sexual thought something to be repented of and when is it not? When does it cross the line from an uncontrollable, biologically healthy, and perfectly normal and acceptable human reaction into the realm of lust? There is a difference, I believe.

The Book of Mormon says we must watch ourselves, thoughts, words, and deeds or we must perish (Mosiah 4:30).

Now the LDS Church says that people with same sex attraction should not feel guilty about their feelings. They should just not act on those feelings. So, there is room for same sex feelings, impulses, temptation, etc. without it being a sin. I think the same holds true for heterosexuals and their feelings. I would assume that those with same sex attraction are under the same responsibility as heterosexuals to control those feelings and not allow them to grow into lust. Lust needs to be repented of, whether acted on or not.

Scott C. said:

When is a sexual thought something to be repented of and when is it not? When does it cross the line from an uncontrollable, biologically healthy, and perfectly normal and acceptable human reaction into the realm of lust? There is a difference, I believe.

The Book of Mormon says we must watch ourselves, thoughts, words, and deeds or we must perish (Mosiah 4:30).

Now the LDS Church says that people with same sex attraction should not feel guilty about their feelings. They should just not act on those feelings. So, there is room for same sex feelings, impulses, temptation, etc. without it being a sin. I think the same holds true for heterosexuals and their feelings. I would assume that those with same sex attraction are under the same responsibility as heterosexuals to control those feelings and not allow them to grow into lust. Lust needs to be repented of, whether acted on or not.

Click to expand...

Like I said - I'm not in a position to judge that for anyone but myself (and I'm even somewhat limited in judging it there) - so I'm not even going to try and go down that road. I'm just saying that at least attempting to control our thoughts is expected of us.

I don't disagree with anything that you have said here.

Katzpur said:

Now you're playing word games, which is far more touchy than my position. All I'm saying is that the Church has never said that it is a sin to be homosexual. It's a sin to engage in sexual relations outside of marriage. Since the Church believes that marriage is to be between a man and a woman, your question about married homosexuals is pointless. I don't personally feel as if we choose our sexual orientation, but I do believe we choose our behavior, and it's our behavior for which we will be judged.

Click to expand...

I agree that there is no reason to believe that same sex marriage is any greater of a sin than premarital sex. I do think there's a differnce, though, in the nature of same sex attraction and heterosexual attraction in an important way.

My 20 year old read about the church's position on homoxsexuality and said "so its not a sin to be gay anymore?" I explained the difference between same sex attraction and having sex with someone of the same gender. So he asked me, is it ok then for two men to be boy friends, hold hands, and go on dates, and kiss goodnight? This is not sex and is ok for unmarried heterosexuals. This was a question I had never thought of before, but my answer was "no", I don't think that would be ok. So, I do believe that there is something wrong with pursuing a homosexual romantic relationship at any level, sexual or not. This puts homosexuality in a realm all of its own. It also makes it tougher to overcome. A heterosexual can at least pursue a romantic relationship with the oppostite sex, go on dates, etc. with the hopes of one day marrying.

That's my two cents.

Bishka said:

It is?

Could you care to explain how this is not okay in marriage, in a private setting?

:areyoucra

Click to expand...

I was being a bit humorous. If you like whips and chains in your marriage, I think that is between you and your spouse

Bishka said:

'

If you've actually read the thread, some of us aren't actually talking about "relations," we were referring to thoughts and feelings. As far as I'm concerned I wasn't aware those were sins.

Click to expand...

Thoughts are a sin if dwelled upon with an intent to act or stimulate unrighteous mental activities. Feelings are not sins necessarily. But they can be sinful if you stimulate them with triggers that are sexual in nature intentionally.

SoyLeche said:

Trying to side-step the issue is just going to cause more confusion.

Click to expand...

I'm not trying to side-step the issue. I just don't believe that being a homosexual is a sin; engaging in homosexual sexual intimacy is. The reason I said that sex outside of marriage is sinful is that I believe heterosexual sex outside of marriage is also sinful. By stating it the way I did, I thought I was killing two birds with one stone. Evidently I just confused you instead.

Scott C. said:

When is a sexual thought something to be repented of and when is it not? When does it cross the line from an uncontrollable, biologically healthy, and perfectly normal and acceptable human reaction into the realm of lust? There is a difference, I believe.

The Book of Mormon says we must watch ourselves, thoughts, words, and deeds or we must perish (Mosiah 4:30).

Now the LDS Church says that people with same sex attraction should not feel guilty about their feelings. They should just not act on those feelings. So, there is room for same sex feelings, impulses, temptation, etc. without it being a sin. I think the same holds true for heterosexuals and their feelings. I would assume that those with same sex attraction are under the same responsibility as heterosexuals to control those feelings and not allow them to grow into lust. Lust needs to be repented of, whether acted on or not.

Click to expand...

Every point well put. I agree with everything you've said. Note to everybody else: If you don't like what I said, just pretend I didn't say it, and tell yourself, "Katzpur really just agrees with Scott. He just put it better." :yes:

Katzpur said:

I'm not trying to side-step the issue. I just don't believe that being a homosexual is a sin; engaging in homosexual sexual intimacy is. The reason I said that sex outside of marriage is sinful is that I believe heterosexual sex outside of marriage is also sinful. By stating it the way I did, I thought I was killing two birds with one stone. Evidently I just confused you instead.

Click to expand...

I agree with you, and I wasn't really confused as to your meaning. I'm just trying to anticipate other confusions. Saying "it's a sin just like any sex outside of marriage is a sin" is going to inevitably lead to the question, "well, what about homosexuals who are married?" Then you've got to go into the whole "gay marriage doesn't count as marriage". I'd rather just skip that conversation that will inevitably happen and go strait to the heart of the issue. If you'd rather take the long road, more power to you

so did I miss the part when Bishka declared herself gay or am I misunderstanding her posts in this thread?

Comprehend said:

so did I miss the part when Bishka declared herself gay or am I misunderstanding her posts in this thread?

Click to expand...

that what i understood from her posts.

I am of the opinion that the church says it is the purposeful stimulation or perpetuation of erotic thought and/or inappropriate physical contact outside of the parameters of a heterosexual marriage that are the foundations of defining sexual sin. As such, merely having homosexual thoughts is not sinful unless they are provoked or dwelt upon.

However, in the case of homosexuals, the chastity requirement appears to be extended in that you should in no way outwardly express homosexual tendencies, and that excludes romantic gestures that would simply be accepted in a heterosexual unmarried couple.

The justification for that, it seems, is that the romantic gestures of heterosexuals have an institution in which they can develop and express those sexual desires without being sinful: marriage.

Homosexual romantic gestures, whilst small, may cause escalation which might lead to serious sin, because homosexual relations are considered wrong in their own right. In effect, I suppose the concept is one of nipping any homosexual relationships 'in the bud' before they develop into something potentially dangerous.