NT stories-- historical fact?

Do you believe that all of the stories in the New Testament actually happened?

Jesus' multiplication of the fish?

Jesus' cursing of a fig tree?

Jesus exorcising demons from people?

The Virgin Birth?

The Resurrection?

What would lead someone to believe the above as historical fact but hold OT stories of genocides and floods as allegorical, and reject outright the miracles of Mohommad in the Koran or the stories of Coyote in Native American tradition as mythology?

I personally remember some time ago coming to the realization that the only reason I viewed the miracle stories in the NT as historical fact and rejected the miracle stories in the Koran as ancient myth was because I had been raised Christian. If I had been raised Muslim, I'm sure I would never have taken seriously stories of cursed fig trees and virgin births.

Thoughts?

What would lead someone to believe the above as historical fact but hold OT stories of genocides and floods as allegorical, and reject outright the miracles of Mohommad in the Koran or the stories of Coyote in Native American tradition as mythology?

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Who says a person has to believe one and not the others? I can't say that Mohammed didn't do miracles. I can only argue what I believe the source was. But then it becomes irrelevant, so really there's no reason thinking about it. But I won't discount it simply because of my religious bias. There must have been something going on over there!
Sorry, I don't know about coyote mythology, so I can't comment on that.

I personally remember some time ago coming to the realization that the only reason I viewed the miracle stories in the NT as historical fact and rejected the miracle stories in the Koran as ancient myth was because I had been raised Christian. If I had been raised Muslim, I'm sure I would never have taken seriously stories of cursed fig trees and virgin births.

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Sure you would have. Muslims believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and did miracles. In fact, it's a real shame that two closely related religions have to be in such strife all of the time..... especially when it's against each of their beliefs.

I agree with Chris... I believe both.

Mr_Spinkles said:

Do you believe that all of the stories in the New Testament actually happened?

Jesus' multiplication of the fish?

Jesus' cursing of a fig tree?

Jesus exorcising demons from people?

The Virgin Birth?

The Resurrection?

What would lead someone to believe the above as historical fact but hold OT stories of genocides and floods as allegorical, and reject outright the miracles of Mohommad in the Koran or the stories of Coyote in Native American tradition as mythology?

I personally remember some time ago coming to the realization that the only reason I viewed the miracle stories in the NT as historical fact and rejected the miracle stories in the Koran as ancient myth was because I had been raised Christian. If I had been raised Muslim, I'm sure I would never have taken seriously stories of cursed fig trees and virgin births.

Thoughts?

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I rarely reduce OT stories to just allegory, and I never feel a need to disparage another group's claims at miracles. If I need to do that, then I'm probably not too comfortable in my own faith.

Chris said:

Sure you would have. Muslims believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and did miracles.

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Ooh, good point, Chris. I stand corrected!

No*s said:

I rarely reduce OT stories to just allegory, and I never feel a need to disparage another group's claims at miracles. If I need to do that, then I'm probably not too comfortable in my own faith.

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Actually No*s, I'm not talking about disparaging another group's claims at miracles, I'm talking about rejecting belief in another group's claims at miracles. As our insightful friend NetDoc said recently, discernment is often mistaken for judgement.

Do you believe that a spirit named Coyote used to play tricks on the Native Americans or not? Why or why not?

NetDoc said:

I agree with Chris... I believe both.

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What about the OT stories that you accept only as allegorical (not literal)? What indicates that, say, the story of Adam and Eve is allegorical, and the story of the Virgin Birth historical?

Mr_Spinkles said:

Actually No*s, I'm not talking about disparaging another group's claims at miracles, I'm talking about rejecting belief in another group's claims at miracles. As our insightful friend NetDoc said recently, discernment is often mistaken for judgement.

Do you believe that a spirit named Coyote used to play tricks on the Native Americans or not? Why or why not?

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Sorry for the misunderstanding .

I really don't have an opinion on that one. As far as I'm concerned, something like that could have happened, and nothing would change in my faith. If it didn't happen, the same would be true.

Now, if we extended this to contradictory claims (ones where I can't embrace Christianity and acknowledge it), then it is my acceptance of Christianity that causes me to disallow it for myself. Then the reasons for my doing so haven't so much to do with the claim itself, but why I believe Christianity .

No*s said:

I really don't have an opinion on that one. As far as I'm concerned, something like that could have happened, and nothing would change in my faith. If it didn't happen, the same would be true.

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Come now, No*s, surely you do not take stories of a trickster Coyote spirit seriously? I admit that I do not *know* such stories are fiction, but I am far from not having an opinion on them.

No*s said:

Now, if we extended this to contradictory claims (ones where I can't embrace Christianity and acknowledge it), then it is my acceptance of Christianity that causes me to disallow it for myself. Then the reasons for my doing so haven't so much to do with the claim itself, but why I believe Christianity

.

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So, you have "reasons" to believe all the claims of Christianity (or at least, all the claims of Orthodox Christianity) are true, and because all the claims of Christianity are true, all contradictory claims must be false. The question, then, is what are these reasons for believing in Christianity, and why should they be taken as valid indicators of whether tales contradictory to Christian dogma are true or false?

Mr_Spinkles said:

Come now, No*s, surely you do not take stories of a trickster Coyote spirit seriously? I admit that I do not *know* such stories are fiction, but I am far from not having an opinion on them.

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No, I really kind of regard it as irrelevant. Does it strike me as something I'm just going to take up and believe? Nope, but I won't call it false very readily either . Since I largely consider such a belief irrelevant to me, I really don't give it much thought or really have strong opinions about whether it is true or false.

I'm also a lot more giving here than you .

Mr_Spinkles said:

So, you have "reasons" to believe all the claims of Christianity (or at least, all the claims of Orthodox Christianity) are true, and because all the claims of Christianity are true, all contradictory claims must be false. The question, then, is what are these reasons for believing in Christianity, and why should they be taken as valid indicators of whether tales contradictory to Christian dogma are true or false?

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The grounds for not believing a religious claim if it contradicts Christianity are really simple for me. I believe Christianity is true. If belief X contradicts Chrsitianity, then I must either choose to compromise Christianity or reject belief X. Beause I believe Christianity to be true, and because evidence alone cannot determine these issues, I tend to fall on the side of Christianity .

What are those beliefs? Well, I believe first the resurrection of Christ, then the inspiration of His Church, and from this I get to other evidences. As such, everything rests on my beleiving in the resurrection of Christ and the reliability of our record. If I disbelieved that, then it would open a whole new can of worms.

No*s said:

Since I largely consider such a belief irrelevant to me, I really don't give it much thought or really have strong opinions about whether it is true or false.

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Well, let's focus on beliefs that are relevant to you, then (if true): for example, the stories of the goddess Diana and the belief that if you build temples and make sacrifices to honor her, you will gain her favor (definitely something I would want, if she exists, just as I would want God's grace/mercy/forgiveness etc. if He exists).

No*s said:

The grounds for not believing a religious claim if it contradicts Christianity are really simple for me. I believe Christianity is true. If belief X contradicts Chrsitianity, then I must either choose to compromise Christianity or reject belief X. Beause I believe Christianity to be true, and because evidence alone cannot determine these issues, I tend to fall on the side of Christianity

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It appears you would suggest a false dichotomy-- e.g. that if the stories of the goddess Diana are true and YHWH is not the only god in existence, Jesus could not have been resurrected.

I do not see any reason, however, to believe that if one claim within Christian dogma is false, all claims within Christian dogma are false, nor do I see any reason to believe that if one Christian claim is true, all are true. I would suggest that a method for determining the validity of each individual claim would lead to a better correspondance with reality than a method that groups many claims together (i.e. that "Christianity" and all claims therein must either all be true or false).

Do I believe in a "trickster God named Coyote"?

Sure, why not. We may call him Satan, but he is still deceitful and the father of lies! He has many names on this planet.

You see Spinks, almost ALL religions have at least an element of truth in them. Some more than others and some are incredibly close to complete truth. There are many stories of a "Great Flood". Why? Maybe it actually happened! There are many versions of creation. Again why? Because man seems to KNOW that this we are not simply a grand accident.

Now there are some stories in the scriptures that I simply do not understand. Ezekial's wheel in a wheel way up in the middle of the air sounds suspiciously like a UFO. Even the account of creation has me puzzled in the light of my understanding of evolution per se.

So, I have to get back to the prime belief that makes me accept all of the scriptures as being God Breathed and useful. That belief is the empty tomb. If I accept that it is empty, then all else must be true, whether I fully understand it or not. However, if I don't accept that one premise, then the rest really doesn't matter at all. It's veracity is moot if my saviour is still dead and buried.

II Timothy 1:12 That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.

Mr_Spinkles said:

Do you believe that all of the stories in the New Testament actually happened?

Jesus' multiplication of the fish?

Jesus' cursing of a fig tree?

Jesus exorcising demons from people?

The Virgin Birth?

The Resurrection?

What would lead someone to believe the above as historical fact but hold OT stories of genocides and floods as allegorical, and reject outright the miracles of Mohommad in the Koran or the stories of Coyote in Native American tradition as mythology?

I personally remember some time ago coming to the realization that the only reason I viewed the miracle stories in the NT as historical fact and rejected the miracle stories in the Koran as ancient myth was because I had been raised Christian. If I had been raised Muslim, I'm sure I would never have taken seriously stories of cursed fig trees and virgin births.

Thoughts?

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I believe some of the stories are real and some are either parables or the best way to describe something at that time. Islam teaches that God sent prophets to all the people, so "miracles" happening to all groups of people is completely reasonable. These "miracles" are based on science. The prophets had knowledge that was ahead of their time, but they were not magicians that could defy science. As far as the Coyote, i am not familiar enough with him/her/it to comment.
Resurrection: Islam teaches that Jesus did not actually die on the cross. They brought 100 lbs of healing herbs to put on his "dead" body? Why healing herbs for a dead body? Mary went to rub more healing herbs and spices on a 3 day old corpse? would a 3 day old corpse not stink? The people only thought Jesus was dead, he was healing in the tomb with all the healing herbs that were rubbed on him.
Demon exorcism: I do not believe this stuff, they were most likely epileptic or something that caused seizures and odd behaviour. Jesus was a great herbal healer and probably cured them by herbal/remedies with which the people were not familiar.

Mr_Spinkles said:

Do you believe that all of the stories in the New Testament actually happened?

Jesus' multiplication of the fish?

Jesus' cursing of a fig tree?...

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I never believed any of that stuff about miracles, I was encouraged to interpret things as not being literal all the time. I don't believe the news usually.

I never knew Jesus cursed a fig tree, was it a particularly hateful tree? Or did he stub a toe on it?

I also didn't know Muhhamad performed miracles.

Mr_Spinkles said:

Well, let's focus on beliefs that are relevant to you, then (if true): for example, the stories of the goddess Diana and the belief that if you build temples and make sacrifices to honor her, you will gain her favor (definitely something I would want, if she exists, just as I would want God's grace/mercy/forgiveness etc. if He exists).

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In that case, I tend to reject it or assign it to the demonic. I don't doubt the existence of other "gods," but I don't believe them gods. There are some freaky things assigned to Artemis, after all. It was either her or Athena that one of the Ancient Greek cities recorded (and not in the Archaic era no less) that turned back an army with a terrifying apparition.

Mr_Spinkles said:

It appears you would suggest a false dichotomy-- e.g. that if the stories of the goddess Diana are true and YHWH is not the only god in existence, Jesus could not have been resurrected.

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The dichotomy between the stories isn't the problem, it's the dichotomy between the deities. If there is another God like YHWH, then Christianity falls apart. Having something work as Diana doesn't necessarily, but lending truth to her divinity directly destroys Christianity. I, thus, regard the pagan gods as more of "children of God," like angels, so there is no reason to deny all the stories .

Mr_Spinkles said:

I do not see any reason, however, to believe that if one claim within Christian dogma is false, all claims within Christian dogma are false, nor do I see any reason to believe that if one Christian claim is true, all are true. I would suggest that a method for determining the validity of each individual claim would lead to a better correspondance with reality than a method that groups many claims together (i.e. that "Christianity" and all claims therein must either all be true or false).

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It is because all Christian dogma necessitates a handful of truths. Among these are the resurrection of Christ, the uniqueness of God, and so on. If these aren't true, then none of Christianity is true. Acknowledging someone else like God, thus, ruins Christianity.

Mr_Spinkles said:

Do you believe that all of the stories in the New Testament actually happened?

Jesus' multiplication of the fish?

Jesus' cursing of a fig tree?

Jesus exorcising demons from people?

The Virgin Birth?

The Resurrection?

What would lead someone to believe the above as historical fact but hold OT stories of genocides and floods as allegorical, and reject outright the miracles of Mohommad in the Koran or the stories of Coyote in Native American tradition as mythology?

I personally remember some time ago coming to the realization that the only reason I viewed the miracle stories in the NT as historical fact and rejected the miracle stories in the Koran as ancient myth was because I had been raised Christian. If I had been raised Muslim, I'm sure I would never have taken seriously stories of cursed fig trees and virgin births.

Thoughts?

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I am quite happy in the knowledge that wether or not the stories in the NT are fact, over exagerated stories, whatever .... that it makes no personal difference to me one way or the other. My faith is IN THE KNOWLEDGE of the existance of God and in the belief that Jesus lived on earth; the veracity and accuracy are totally irrelevent to me.

michel said:

My faith is IN THE KNOWLEDGE of the existance of God and in the belief that Jesus lived on earth; the veracity and accuracy are totally irrelevent to me.

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That is a remarkably honest and stunningly sad statement - a monument to intellectual indifference and an exemplar of cognitive disconnect.

Deut. 32.8 said:

That is a remarkably honest and stunningly sad statement - a monument to intellectual indifference and an exemplar of cognitive disconnect.

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Deut, I respect your opinion.

Mr_Spinkles said:

Do you believe that all of the stories in the New Testament actually happened?

Jesus' multiplication of the fish?

Jesus' cursing of a fig tree?

Jesus exorcising demons from people?

The Virgin Birth?

The Resurrection?

What would lead someone to believe the above as historical fact but hold OT stories of genocides and floods as allegorical, and reject outright the miracles of Mohommad in the Koran or the stories of Coyote in Native American tradition as mythology?

I personally remember some time ago coming to the realization that the only reason I viewed the miracle stories in the NT as historical fact and rejected the miracle stories in the Koran as ancient myth was because I had been raised Christian. If I had been raised Muslim, I'm sure I would never have taken seriously stories of cursed fig trees and virgin births.

Thoughts?

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I believe in these miracles and the Bible said other believers/disciples/prophets/apostles were also given the ability to perform these miracles as well. I don't reject miracles done by any religious belief but I do believe that they all come from the hand of God. In acts it's told that miracles were done by all sorts of people...it also tells us that some things such as magic,fortune tellers and such are of satin...and that in these cases bad spirits are involved. Satin has many ways of mircales per say as well...we have to discern the good from the bad.

We can't just reject another cultures ways as wrong in idea or belief but when you follow the truth it leads back to the hand of God...the doer could have been anyone...it doesn't mean it wasn't for real. God gave many powers over other powers. We can't take credit in this day or past day for what God has caused to happen through His work in a human life...the gospel was preached throughout the world and throughout the world many were given gifts to do miracles.

I have been sick for about 3 weeks so my thought pattern doesn't seem to be coming across how I'm intending...forgive please...I mean no ill-intent towards any other's belief.