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Church Ban on Flag Draped Coffin

Quoth The Raven

Quoth The Raven

Half Arsed Muse
I've been searching for something I could link to on this, but despite it being all over the news all day, there doesn't seem to be a single thing on any news site in the country.
An elderly WW2 veteran died over the weekend. His dying wish was that he have an RSL(Returned Serviceman's League) funeral service, in the Presbyterian church he had attended faithfully for the last 40 years.
The minister refused to allow it. He will not allow a coffin draped with the Australian flag in his church. He will not allow the RSL to conduct a service. He claims that by a returned serviceman having an RSL funeral service and a flag draped coffin, it is a glorification of war. The minister - being a pacifist himself - does not feel it is appropriate for the church to promote war in any way.
He has kindly offered to let the service be held in the church grounds...out the front, in what is essentially a carpark, on a main road. There's respect for you.
Oddly enough, the moral stance that prohibits the minister from allowing this ' glorification of war' to take place in his church wasn't in evidence 2 months ago, when a deceased ex-serviceman and former member of parliament not only had the flag draped coffin and RSL service in the very same church, but did so without a murmur from the minister halting proceedings now.
Does the man have a valid point, or is he just a hypocrite?
 
retrorich

retrorich

SUPER NOT-A-MOD
lady_lazarus said:
I've been searching for something I could link to on this, but despite it being all over the news all day, there doesn't seem to be a single thing on any news site in the country.
An elderly WW2 veteran died over the weekend. His dying wish was that he have an RSL(Returned Serviceman's League) funeral service, in the Presbyterian church he had attended faithfully for the last 40 years.
The minister refused to allow it. He will not allow a coffin draped with the Australian flag in his church. He will not allow the RSL to conduct a service. He claims that by a returned serviceman having an RSL funeral service and a flag draped coffin, it is a glorification of war. The minister - being a pacifist himself - does not feel it is appropriate for the church to promote war in any way.
He has kindly offered to let the service be held in the church grounds...out the front, in what is essentially a carpark, on a main road. There's respect for you.
Oddly enough, the moral stance that prohibits the minister from allowing this ' glorification of war' to take place in his church wasn't in evidence 2 months ago, when a deceased ex-serviceman and former member of parliament not only had the flag draped coffin and RSL service in the very same church, but did so without a murmur from the minister halting proceedings now.
Does the man have a valid point, or is he just a hypocrite?
Click to expand...
I think that minister is an idiot and should be replaced promptly. Hopefully, in time for that gentleman to have the funeral he desired.
 
Jaymes

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
That's disgusting. I would understand if he had made it clear to those who attend his church that he was a pacifist and wouldn't allow flag-draped coffins, but this is way out of line.
 
Pah

Pah

Uber all member
Sounds like he missed the meaning of that catchy Christian phrase "Love the sinner, hate the sin"
 
No*s

No*s

Captain Obvious
lady_lazarus said:
I've been searching for something I could link to on this, but despite it being all over the news all day, there doesn't seem to be a single thing on any news site in the country.
An elderly WW2 veteran died over the weekend. His dying wish was that he have an RSL(Returned Serviceman's League) funeral service, in the Presbyterian church he had attended faithfully for the last 40 years.
The minister refused to allow it. He will not allow a coffin draped with the Australian flag in his church. He will not allow the RSL to conduct a service. He claims that by a returned serviceman having an RSL funeral service and a flag draped coffin, it is a glorification of war. The minister - being a pacifist himself - does not feel it is appropriate for the church to promote war in any way.
He has kindly offered to let the service be held in the church grounds...out the front, in what is essentially a carpark, on a main road. There's respect for you.
Oddly enough, the moral stance that prohibits the minister from allowing this ' glorification of war' to take place in his church wasn't in evidence 2 months ago, when a deceased ex-serviceman and former member of parliament not only had the flag draped coffin and RSL service in the very same church, but did so without a murmur from the minister halting proceedings now.
Does the man have a valid point, or is he just a hypocrite?
Click to expand...

I tend toward the latter option. This is clearly a rather cruel thing to do to the deceased and their family. It makes me wonder how much we don't know that's going on or has gone on behind the scenes...
 
michel

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
retrorich said:
I think that minister is an idiot and should replaced promptly. Hopefully, in time for that gentleman to have the funeral he desired.
Click to expand...
Rich; give me a chance! I think your above words are the ones I would have used.
The minister obviously has no respect for the wishes of the veteran, and as you say should therefore be 'given the boot'.:mad:
 
Valjean

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm sympathetic with the minister's stance against glorifying war but it does seem he should have made this known to his congregation and invited discussion of the new policy.

I'd like to hear the minister's side of the issue before I make a final judgment on the matter, though. Sometimes an issue that seems black and white at the outset begins to grey as new facts come to light.
 
kiwimac

kiwimac

Brother Napalm of God's Love
Seyorni said:
I'm sympathetic with the minister's stance against glorifying war but it does seem he should have made this known to his congregation and invited discussion of the new policy.

I'd like to hear the minister's side of the issue before I make a final judgment on the matter, though. Sometimes an issue that seems black and white at the outset begins to grey as new facts come to light.
Click to expand...
I am also sympathetic to his stance. Perhaps it would be better for all concerned if the minister was happy to discuss what this stand means for him with his congregation. Perhaps they can have the funeral in the church and have the flag on the coffin on the way into the church and on the way to the cemetary.

Kiwimac
 
Valjean

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, perhaps something like that could be arranged. Still, he should have anticipated the possible ramifications of his change of heart and discussed it with his congregation beforehand.

The essence of protestant Christianity, as expressed in the beatitudes, is so diametrically at odds with militarism and war, that I'm at a loss to understand how any congregation could view militarism, or its agents, with anything other than horror and abhorrence. Why did this minister's epiphany come so late in the game? Why would anyone even enter seminary without already holding this opinion?
 
C

Chris

Member
The minister refused to allow it.
Click to expand...
That's ridiculous....

The minister obviously has no respect for the wishes of the veteran, and as you say should therefore be 'given the boot'.
Click to expand...
Because of this single incident? That's a little rash, isn't it?? I think what he's doing is stupid, but what about everything else he may have done. Who knows, maybe he's been a perfectly good priest otherwise, and maybe he's done a lot for that church.
 
Jaymes

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
How can anything excuse allowing one coffin draped with a flag during a funeral service to be allowed two months beforehand, but disallowing this one?
 
No*s

No*s

Captain Obvious
Tangnefedd said:
Why does the coffin have to be drapped with a flag anyway?
Click to expand...

Because the deceased had made it one of his last requests. It's respectful of him and his family. There needs to be a dang good reason for that. The dead and their families should be respected.
 
Jaymes

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
He was a veteran. It was his dying wish to get a RLS funeral service. There is no excuse in my mind to not give it to him, considering he did the exact same damn thing two months beforehand.
 
A

anders

Well-Known Member
My firm opinion is that how a funeral is performed is no business of the deceased person, it's a matter solely for the survivors. When I'm gone, I'm gone, so it doesn't affect the no-longer-existing me anyway.

Then, when the survivors have made up their minds, the person in charge of the ceremony will just have to comply, unless the setting is contrary to his/her beliefs, in which case the survivors should be able to find a substitute for that person.

My mother is still alive and reasonably well at 88, so I'm not overly anxious, but to be on the safe side (I had, for example, a not unimportant stroke some years ago), I have told my relatives that however they set my funeral, I won't protest after the ceremony.
 
Quoth The Raven

Quoth The Raven

Half Arsed Muse
Chris said:
That's ridiculous....


Because of this single incident? That's a little rash, isn't it?? I think what he's doing is stupid, but what about everything else he may have done. Who knows, maybe he's been a perfectly good priest otherwise, and maybe he's done a lot for that church.
Click to expand...
Actually, the congregation has dropped by about 30% since he took over the church.
Now, my mother heard another interveiw with the same minister on another radio station, and at that point he said that having the Australian Flag on the coffin was offensive to minority groups (which to me is even more bizarre an excuse than that it glorifies war, quite frankly).It's even more bizarre when you consider that several of the stained glass windows in that particular church were donated by the RSL and as such have the flag featured on them. It\f the flag of the country in which he lives is so offensive, why isn't he out there smashing the church windows with a rock?
 
jamaesi

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
What happened to "Support Our Troops" and those other slogans?

Just because you don't like war doesn't mean...
A) it won't happen
and
B)you are allowed to disrespect those who risked their lives to fight in it.

Personally, I hate war; however, I have a great respect to those who have to fight in it, partly because I know I could never do that. War is a horrible horrible thing to have to experience first-hand, while it's so easy to sit back safe at home and condemn it.

Praytell, who is hurt by a flag draped over a coffin at the funeral of a VETERAN? I can't think of a single person.


I think it's disgusting to try and deny him that flag.
 
W

w00t

Active Member
Funerals are for the living not the dead who are passed caring. I think the clergyman made a valid point, a church is no place for the glorification of war, which is what a flag draped coffin symbolises. If the dead serviceman's family wanted it then the car park is the place for jingoistic nonsense!
 
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