Christian: Imputed Righteousness and Christ's Work

No*s · Feb 7, 2005

So...do the members of the board believe that we become righteous through Christ in some way, or do the same members believe that Christ's sacrifice simply covers over our sin and makes it possible for God to not see our sins?

Whatever definition is taken, how does Christ becoming man,dying, and rising from the grave fit in?

As for me, I feel very strongly that Christians are to become righteous, and we are to do this by participating in the very life of God. For this reason, God became man, suffered and died. By doing this, He extended His essence into the corruption we all suffer from and vanguished it.

This, however, does not make sense if we assert that we don't become righteous, but somehow it is just imputed to us. To put it another way, what do you believe about the Atonement and salvation?

Joannicius · Feb 8, 2005

Our righteousness is a gift that we synergistically work together with The Holy Spirit to become Truly Human and a bearer of Christ's Grace, not essence, as only the Trinity encompasses the essence of the Divine. Our divinity is through this gift and is in the power, with eternal and immortal life of the Creator. By definition, i.e. being eternal from our beginning, and not without beginning as the trinity, and having become immortal through the life of Christ in us, the hope of Glory we become one with the divinity of God in a way that is incomprehensible this side of immortality.

P.S. Just as a side note for those who cant understand salvation. The process above if we enter into it is the working out of our salvation with fear and trembling! Conversion is a happening, salvation in dynamic - not static.

precept · Feb 11, 2005

No*s said:
So...do the members of the board believe that we become righteous through Christ in some way, or do the same members believe that Christ's sacrifice simply covers over our sin and makes it possible for God to not see our sins?

Whatever definition is taken, how does Christ becoming man,dying, and rising from the grave fit in?

As for me, I feel very strongly that Christians are to become righteous, and we are to do this by participating in the very life of God. For this reason, God became man, suffered and died. By doing this, He extended His essence into the corruption we all suffer from and vanguished it.

This, however, does not make sense if we assert that we don't become righteous, but somehow it is just imputed to us. To put it another way, what do you believe about the Atonement and salvation?

Your question is most fundamental to understanding why christ came to earth in the first place.
1 Peter 1:17-21 makes the point that Jesus was going to reconcile man even before He had created man. or before ["He laid the foundations of the world".] This being so; He planned man's redemption knowing that man would sin...and the fact that man would sin; also meant that man was never good enough to be worthy of salvation...and this speaks to the fact that man's only hope; if chooses to be saved is to hide behind his Saviour's righteousness...a righteousness ["imputed"] a righteousness that can never be earned by the man "created in sin and born in iniquity"

Christ died for sin as originated by Satan in heaven. ... which sin was practiced by man on earth. Christ died to forever eradicate sin from His universe. Christ would still have to die to cleanse His universe from sin whether a single human accepted Him as Saviour or not.
And it is because Christ knows that even when we accept him that our sinful nature still predisposes us to sin against him...but because we sin when we would rather not sin; he forgives us because we are sorry and because we ask his forgiveness. His death then constantly atones for the sin we [ought to have died for.] He died where we ought to have died making us forever eternally lost...but by his death we are "healed" and saved eternally[undeservedly so].

["But only those who walk in the light as he is in the light; have fellowship with Him' Those who claim to walk with but who are in darkness are not on their way to heaven...They are on their way to hell; while believing that they are on their way to heaven. 1 John 1:5-7

precept

No*s · Feb 11, 2005

Joannicius said:
Our righteousness is a gift that we synergistically work together with The Holy Spirit to become Truly Human and a bearer of Christ's Grace, not essence, as only the Trinity encompasses the essence of the Divine. Our divinity is through this gift and is in the power, with eternal and immortal life of the Creator. By definition, i.e. being eternal from our beginning, and not without beginning as the trinity, and having become immortal through the life of Christ in us, the hope of Glory we become one with the divinity of God in a way that is incomprehensible this side of immortality.

P.S. Just as a side note for those who cant understand salvation. The process above if we enter into it is the working out of our salvation with fear and trembling! Conversion is a happening, salvation in dynamic - not static.

Joannicus...you consistently word things better than I

.

No*s · Feb 11, 2005

precept said:
Your question is most fundamental to understanding why christ came to earth in the first place.
1 Peter 1:17-21 makes the point that Jesus was going to reconcile man even before He had created man. or before ["He laid the foundations of the world".] This being so; He planned man's redemption knowing that man would sin...and the fact that man would sin; also meant that man was never good enough to be worthy of salvation...and this speaks to the fact that man's only hope; if chooses to be saved is to hide behind his Saviour's righteousness...a righteousness ["imputed"] a righteousness that can never be earned by the man "created in sin and born in iniquity"

Christ died for sin as originated by Satan in heaven. ... which sin was practiced by man on earth. Christ died to forever eradicate sin from His universe. Christ would still have to die to cleanse His universe from sin whether a single human accepted Him as Saviour or not.
And it is because Christ knows that even when we accept him that our sinful nature still predisposes us to sin against him...but because we sin when we would rather not sin; he forgives us because we are sorry and because we ask his forgiveness. His death then constantly atones for the sin we [ought to have died for.] He died where we ought to have died making us forever eternally lost...but by his death we are "healed" and saved eternally[undeservedly so].

["But only those who walk in the light as he is in the light; have fellowship with Him' Those who claim to walk with but who are in darkness are not on their way to heaven...They are on their way to hell; while believing that they are on their way to heaven. 1 John 1:5-7

precept

If I understand you aright, you're claiming that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, because we cannot become righteous.

If that is, indeed, the correct understanding, why does Christ give commands like "be perfect, even as My Father in heaven is perfect," enable the ability to "become" righteous, or even become a son of God. There is no becoming if we are simply being credited as righteous.

precept · Feb 12, 2005

No*s said:
If I understand you aright, you're claiming that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, because we cannot become righteous.

If that is, indeed, the correct understanding, why does Christ give commands like "be perfect, even as My Father in heaven is perfect," enable the ability to "become" righteous, or even become a son of God. There is no becoming if we are simply being credited as righteous.

You are right! "We cannot become righteous"...."All our righteousness are as "Filthy Rags".... Isaiah 64:6

The command of Christ to be "perfect as His Father is Perfect" is the same command as echoed by the apostle James in James 1:1-10.

1/...The perfect Christian must count it a joy when he falls into temptation....Or the perfect Christian will always be tempted.

2/....The perfect Christian must have his faith tried by the devil...This enables the perfect Christian to develop his faith in his God.

3/....This perfect patience develops her perfect work; making the CHRISTIAN PERFECT AND ENTIRE, OR "perfect" as God, and wanting nothing or not lacking in any regard re the will of God for the salvation of man

In Jesus' words..."That they all may be one; as thou art in me and I in thee[or perfect in the knowledge of God's will for man's salvation]....that they also may be one ;even as we are one....I in them and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one....and why must they be "perfect in one" ? it is for this and this reason only.....THAT THE WORLD MAY KNOW THAT THOU HAST SENT ME!

Ephsians 4:11-32 sums it up...."Perfectly"....."And he gave some apostles, and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers, for the PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS....TILL WE ALL COME TO THE U N I TY [that they all may be one; as I in thee and Thou in me] And again ...."till we all come in the "unity of the faith"....and "of the knowledge of the Son of God", "U N T O THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD"-"UNTO A PERFECT MAN"; "UNTO THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE FULLNESS OF CHRIS;";...."

With this "perfect knowledge of God's salvation Plan"....we are now no more like "children tossed to and fro, and carried about
"WITH EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE" , BY THE SLEIGHT OF MEN , AND CUNNNING CRAFTINESS, WHEREBY THEY LIE IN WAIT TO DECEIVE."

When we are as perfect as God; we know His perfect will of the saving plan of salvation as perfectly as He knows it....We know it just as perfectly as His Son knows it...
Thus fulfilling the wish of our Saviour for us to be one among ourselves in the belief and understanding and the following of His paln of salvation as He and His Father are one in understanding and following The Plan of salvation.

It is the practice of following "perfectly His Plan of salvation that makes us "entire" /"perfect" /"not wanting nothing".

precept

No*s · Feb 12, 2005

I don't think that you understand the Greek concept of "perfect." It refers "mature" or "complete." Christ is commanding us to be mature/complete like God.

To put it another way, James 1.1-10 states, in vv. 2-3 to let faith have its perfect fruit in us. He thin proceeds in vv. 5-7 to address another issue, that of a lack of wisdom. They aren't completely synonomous.

Jesus' words "that they all may be one; as thou art in me and I in thee" come in the same book where Jesus affirms "those to whom the Word of God came were called gods" (10.35), insisted that His followers were branches and He a vine, thus sharing in the existence of the vine. In another, He taught that He was the Living Water, and those Who drank it would have it proceeding from them.

What is taught by Jesus' words "That they all may be one; as thou art in me and I in thee" is nothing short of sharing the life of God. He is not talking about simply knowing salvation knowledge, but participating in God.

Ephesians 4.11ff. read in this context becomes a passage about the progression to theosis, not about attaining a special knowledge. In none of these is imputed righteousness taught. Rather, the alternative, theosis, is.

precept · Feb 12, 2005

No*s said:
I don't think that you understand the Greek concept of "perfect." It refers "mature" or "complete." Christ is commanding us to be mature/complete like God.

To put it another way, James 1.1-10 states, in vv. 2-3 to let faith have its perfect fruit in us. He thin proceeds in vv. 5-7 to address another issue, that of a lack of wisdom. They aren't completely synonomous.

Jesus' words "that they all may be one; as thou art in me and I in thee" come in the same book where Jesus affirms "those to whom the Word of God came were called gods" (10.35), insisted that His followers were branches and He a vine, thus sharing in the existence of the vine. In another, He taught that He was the Living Water, and those Who drank it would have it proceeding from them.

What is taught by Jesus' words "That they all may be one; as thou art in me and I in thee" is nothing short of sharing the life of God. He is not talking about simply knowing salvation knowledge, but participating in God.

Ephesians 4.11ff. read in this context becomes a passage about the progression to theosis, not about attaining a special knowledge. In none of these is imputed righteousness taught. Rather, the alternative, theosis, is.

Re Ephsians 4:11-32.
How may I ask can finite sinful beings "man" teach other finite sinful beings "other humans"...to be sinless, perfect, infinite "gods"!

precept

No*s · Feb 12, 2005

precept said:
Re Ephsians 4:11-32.
How may I ask can finite sinful beings "man" teach other finite sinful beings "other humans"...to be sinless, perfect, infinite "gods"!

precept

Because we ingest God in the Eucharist, and with that, are imbued with God's life. Spiritual fathers guide their children along the way so that they don't have to go it alone. The lives of those in the Church before help. We can be baptized into the Church.

All these are part of it: Christ is literally incarnated in His people.

precept · Feb 12, 2005

No*s said:
Because we ingest God in the Eucharist, and with that, are imbued with God's life. Spiritual fathers guide their children along the way so that they don't have to go it alone. The lives of those in the Church before help. We can be baptized into the Church.

All these are part of it: Christ is literally incarnated in His people.

How may I ask can a sinful human person; stained with the sin of 'homosexuality", "fornication"and or "ponography" ...stained with the sin of "lying", "stealing"and oh so many other evils, claim to "hold very God" in his "dirty" "filthy" hands!....Very God Himself says that even if these sinful finte humans were righteous, their righteousness would be "filty rags" in His sight. And yet you claim that these "filty humans" hold very God in their "filthy hands". How blasphemous! Oh! how so very blasphemous!

Very God says that He doesn't dwell in any "temple made with hands" Nor does He reside in the vicinity of anything human! No matter how ill-conceived! or well intentioned the desire of those humans to represent His divinity in the form of worship to Him.
He dwells in the action of every human who represents His character faithfully in hating the act of sinning. It is only in so representing Him that He dwells in us redeemed sinners.

precept

Joannicius · Feb 13, 2005

We do not partake of the Eucherist (Body of Christ) with the "stain" of sin sullifying our soul, mind and body as the All Precious Grace granted us when we prepare through Baptism, Repentance, Confession and Absolution enables poor sinners like ourselves to approach the Holy Eucherist with out being burned up or as Paul the Apostle cautioned us that if we do take it unworthily, we risk sickness and death as the result.

The very reason we (Orthodox Christians) have closed communion.

Joannicius · Feb 13, 2005

Precept

Very God says that He doesn't dwell in any "temple made with hands" Nor does He reside in the vicinity of anything human! No matter how ill-conceived! or well intentioned the desire of those humans to represent His divinity in the form of worship to Him.

What is the source of this fact?

Joannicius · Feb 13, 2005

The Church has never believed as you stated that we are degridant sinners at birth. We are not guilty before God until we commit sin. Have you ever in the scriptures seen where anyone was told they bear the guilt of Adams sin.......
no, we bear the results of his sin which is suffering and death but not the guilt. i.e. I was without sin until the time I counsciencly went against the Spirit of God.

This is why the doctrine of the RC of immaculate conception is in error because since the RC church believe as you do that we are born guilty they had to invent a doctrine to have her sinless so the Holy Spirit could conceve Christ God in her womb.

We do not have infant baptism to cleanse the infant of sin but to correctly baptize them into the Body of Christ literally and physically through the hallowed waters of baptism.

It would be an unjust God who would born us into the world damned with the guilt of sin!!!

I could site many scriptures, but it seems you are quite versed in the scriptures so I will just end with one ....... Christ in You the Hope of Glory

:help:Hating the sin is a good place to start, but loving righteousness is hard work! :help:

precept · Feb 27, 2005

Joannicius said:
The Church has never believed as you stated that we are degridant sinners at birth. We are not guilty before God until we commit sin. Have you ever in the scriptures seen where anyone was told they bear the guilt of Adams sin.......
no, we bear the results of his sin which is suffering and death but not the guilt. i.e. I was without sin until the time I counsciencly went against the Spirit of God.

This is why the doctrine of the RC of immaculate conception is in error because since the RC church believe as you do that we are born guilty they had to invent a doctrine to have her sinless so the Holy Spirit could conceve Christ God in her womb.

We do not have infant baptism to cleanse the infant of sin but to correctly baptize them into the Body of Christ literally and physically through the hallowed waters of baptism.

It would be an unjust God who would born us into the world damned with the guilt of sin!!!

I could site many scriptures, but it seems you are quite versed in the scriptures so I will just end with one ....... Christ in You the Hope of Glory

:help:Hating the sin is a good place to start, but loving righteousness is hard work! :help:

Psalm 51:5-..."....I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me"....The prophet David.

Genesis 3:16..."Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception, in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children[labor pains are the result ever since]

Romans 6:23...."The wages of sin is death........". Do babies die --at birth---during birth---or after birth? If they so die and the wages of sin IS DEATH.... then they, like David said, were born sinners.

But here it is clearly stated by Paul...."As in Adam all died[sinners die] "even so in Christ shall "All" be made alive" "All" include "babies". 2 Corinthians 15:22.

precept

angel888 · Feb 27, 2005

Precept,

There is no necessity prompting the idea of imputed righteousness. In fact, there is much to discredit such a concept. One is that it throws out the idea of forgiveness. It seems clear that God extends to us an ongoing forgiveness of sins (1 John 1:7-9; Matt. 6:12).

But the question is, what sins? How can God forgive a sin that He cannot see? How can He extend pardon to one who, positionally, is just as righteous as Jesus Christ? If I am viewed as perfect, why is there ever a need that I be forgiven?
If imputed righteousness is true, it is doubtful that God could ever discipline His children, as the author of Hebrews says He does (Heb. 12:6). Discipline us for what? We are sinless in His eyes, according to the popular view. Some have tried to make an arbitrary distinction between our legal standing before God and our communion with Him as our Father. But this is contrived. The Bible does not teach that we have two relationships with God.

John, in effect, denied the idea of imputed righteousness when he wrote, "Let no one deceive you. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he [Christ] is righteous" (1 John 3:7). What could be further from the view that he who stands judicially righteous is righteous, just as Christ is righteous?

Angel

precept · Feb 27, 2005

angel888 said:
John, in effect, denied the idea of imputed righteousness when he wrote, "Let no one deceive you. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he [Christ] is righteous" (1 John 3:7). What could be further from the view that he who stands judicially righteous is righteous, just as Christ is righteous?

The scriptures clearly teach that "All our righteousness is "filthy rags" in the eyes of God. Isaiah 64:6 This condition would make each and every human unacceptable to live in God's kingdom, whether in heaven or on earth...and no matter how righteous he may be.

The bible also clearly teaches that "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie ....." Reve;lation 21:27

The above makes it impossible to enter God's kingdom except "only those who accept the atoning sacrifice of Christ can be saved." Such a saved sinner is covered by the righteousness that is by faith in his Saviour Jesus Christ the Righteous. Such a saved sinner remains saved as long as his sins "is ever before him", just as was "God's friend's ", the prophet David's sins... Psalm 32:5; Psalm 51:1-5

No "Angel"! The kingdom of God is not about whether you are free from sin totally, or at some point in time. The kingdom of God is " righteousness and peace and joy in the Lord.. This righteousness is by faith in the atoning sacrifice of the Son of God. This righteousness makes the sinner like David so hate sin that when the sinner sins, he asks His Saviour for forgiveness. He does not ask for forgiiveness because he "wants to go to heaven" he asks forgiveness because he like David is sorry that he has sinned against his Saviour and Benefactor and friend, Jesus. This hating of sin by the saved sinner brings the sinner to His Saviour whenever he sins. It is only in this way that any sinner is saved. There is therefore never any merit for salvation on the part of the sinner; and he is only saved on the merit of His Saviour's Righteousness...and only as he desires to apply this merit in hating sin as His Saviour and God hates sin.

Because the sinner can only be saved on the basis of "Righteousness"...the saved sinner must have a righteousness, not his own--his righteousness is another's--his Saviour's.

precept

angel888 · Feb 28, 2005

If we do not persevere, we shall not reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven." Ye shall be saved if Ye endure to the end."

The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:1924]),

The Bible does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. Writing to Christians, Paul said, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but Gods kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:2223; Matt. 18:2135, 1 Cor. 15:12, 2 Pet. 2:2021).

Note that Paul includes an important condition: "provided you remain in his kindness." He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:1112).

If someone asks me have you have been "saved," you should say, "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is Gods gift of grace that is working in me."

Angel

angel888 · Feb 28, 2005

The apostles taught and what the Bible teaches: We are saved by grace alone, but not by faith alone which is what "Bible Christians" Teach[size=-1]

When we come to God and are justified (that is, enter a right relationship with God), nothing preceding justification, whether faith or good works, earns grace. But then God plants his love in our hearts, and we should live out our faith by doing acts of love ([/size][size=-1]Gal. 6:2[/size][size=-1]).

Even though only Gods grace enables us to love others, these acts of love please him, and he promises to reward them with eternal life ([/size][size=-1]Rom. 2:67, Gal. 6:610[/size][size=-1]). Thus good works are meritorious. When we first come to God in faith, we have nothing in our hands to offer him. Then he gives us grace to obey his commandments in love, and he rewards us with salvation when we offer these acts of love back to him ([/size][size=-1]Rom. 2:611, Gal. 6:610, Matt. 25:3440[/size][size=-1]).[/size]

[size=-1]Jesus said it is not enough to have faith in him; we also must obey his commandments. "Why do you call me Lord, Lord, but do not do the things I command?" ([size=-1]Luke 6:46, Matt. 7:2123, 19:1621[/size][size=-1]).

We do not "earn" our salvation through good works ([/size][size=-1]Eph. 2:89, Rom. 9:16[/size][size=-1]), but our faith in Christ puts us in a special grace-filled relationship with God so that our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life ([/size][size=-1]Rom. 2:7, Gal. 6:89[/size][size=-1]).[/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1]Angel[/size][/size]

Green Gaia · Feb 28, 2005

***Admin post***

precept and angel888: If you are going to participate in the Same Faith Debates forum, please fill in your religion in your profile. Only members of the religion listed in the topic of each thread are allowed to participate in that debate. Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.

Maize

Chris · Mar 1, 2005

I believe Christ works in us when we submit our lives to him.

The Church has never believed as you stated that we are degridant sinners at birth. We are not guilty before God until we commit sin. Have you ever in the scriptures seen where anyone was told they bear the guilt of Adams sin.......
no, we bear the results of his sin which is suffering and death but not the guilt. i.e. I was without sin until the time I counsciencly went against the Spirit of God.

That's inconsequential. The fact is we all fall short of the glory of God.

It would be an unjust God who would born us into the world damned with the guilt of sin!!!

No it wouldn't. It's justified because Christ was sent to save the world from sin. Now, had Christ not been sent, then it wouldn't be very just.
Besides, you could say it's just as unjust that he created a world where all must fall short of the glory of God.

Christian: Imputed Righteousness and Christ's Work

Captain Obvious

Active Member

Member

Captain Obvious

Captain Obvious

Member

Captain Obvious

Member

Captain Obvious

Member

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member