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Moral Capitalism?

I'm going to have to apologize in advance for how sloppy this post is. I'm having trouble organizing my thoughts clearly on this one.

I've been thinking lately....

But, perhaps it would be best if I described what I used to think. Years ago, I considered Jesus' teaching that people should give/do good works secretly. After all, Jesus says, those who do good works in public and are praised for them on Earth have already received their reward, but those who do good works in secret will be repaid by God in heaven. This lead me to think two things:
1) It seems very noble for a person to do good works without expecting any kind of reward or praise for doing them
2) Of course, we (or mainly Christians, I suppose) expect to be rewarded in heaven for doing good works secretly, there's simply no getting around this...so it seems secret good works are just as selfish (in principle) as public good works. The only difference is, God dishes out way better rewards than people do. ;)

But I've been thinking...is this really realistic? I mean, people like to be praised for doing good things....and most of us like to praise people for doing good things. Furthermore, when we see other people doing good works publicly--like the celebrity who donates a large sum of money to some charity--it encourages others to give. If people are praised by others for giving, they will give more, just as a child will want to behave if he/she is praised by his/her parents for being good.

I kind of see the difference between Giving in Secret and Giving in Public as similar to the difference between Communism and Capitalism. Communism is a great, noble idea...people work hard for the good of the community, and get what they need in return. The problem with communism is there is no mechanism to encourage people to truly work their hardest and produce the best goods/services. The hardworking laborer with two kids in a communist system gets the same pay as the lazy laborer with two kids. With capitalism, on the other hand, people are encouraged to work hard and be successful because they will be rewarded with money and status if they do so. Capitalism accepts that we are humans and we are greedy, and harnesses that greed to create a harder-working workforce, better products, and more satisfied consumers. Communism may be noble, but Capitalism works.

The idea that people should Give in Secret seems to have the same problems as Communism: yes, it does seem very noble for people to give and do good things without expecting any kind of reward (in this life, anyway). However, the mechanism to encourage people to give if they give in secret is poor, at best. Basically, preachers have to convince the populace that a Deity will reward them in the afterlife if they give generously. But let's face it: people simply don't give as generously if there isn't some kind of recognition or praise for it from their peers. The possibility of reward in the afterlife just isn't as appealing as certain reward in this life.

People want to be praised. They want the new hospital wing to be named after them. They want a little button that says "I donated blood!" and they want their peers to respect and admire them for being generous. People are only human, after all. :)

So why not capitalize on this desire for praise, just as Capitalism capitalizes on our desire for money? Why not give in public, and gratiously accept any praise one receives? Why not have a culture in which giving is the "in" thing to do, where people who give generously are made into celebrities and praised and admired for giving? That would be more justified, I should think, than making celebrities out of athletes, actors, and White House interns.

I must say, "love thy neighbor" was pretty good Jesus, but I'm going to have to side with the Pharisees on this one. Give in public! :jam:
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Mr_Spinkles said:
I must say, "love thy neighbor" was pretty good Jesus, but I'm going to have to side with the Pharisees on this one.
Leviticus is not a Christian text. I would be cautious about lending voice to the baseless anti-Judaic polemics that thread their way through the NT.

I've edited my remarks to tone them down, but the nice-Jesus/ugly-Pharisee theme is little more than insipient antisemitism.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
PART QUOTE=Mr_Spinkles]

So why not capitalize on this desire for praise, just as Capitalism capitalizes on our desire for money? Why not give in public, and gratiously accept any praise one receives? Why not have a culture in which giving is the "in" thing to do, where people who give generously are made into celebrities and praised and admired for giving? That would be more justified, I should think, than making celebrities out of athletes, actors, and White House interns.

I must say, "love thy neighbor" was pretty good Jesus, but I'm going to have to side with the Pharisees on this one. Give in public! :jam:[/QUOTE]
First of all, your opening thread was not wooly - at least compared to mine, that is!:jiggy:
Secondly, I agree with you on most points. Communism is fine 'ethically' ( and you could'nt have said that years ago when the 'make sure there isn't a red under your bed' purge was on).
So is Capitalism , that is 'ethically' fine. I think in your description about capitalism, you do not make allowances for that the entrepreneurs who make so much money pay vast amounts of taxes; they are often great philanthropists, and do often give without 'blowing their trumpets'. In a thread not so long ago, I was dumfounded by the revelation that Bill Gates has supported charities so consistantly over the years. As far as we were concerned in England, he was the great big greedy 'Microsoft man' - now, thanks to the forum, I know better.
I am not very well informed on British celebs, but I can tell you that Cliff Richard, Richard Branson (Virgin), Jimmy saville(Famous disk jockey) have supported causes, started fellowships - there are more that I could name, but I have no idea how much money these people have given back to society for the reward of having allowed them to do well. Add to that the gamut of Pop Stars who have given their time freely to promote Bob Geldorf's efforts at raising money for the countries suffering from famine (You can also include Paul Mc Cartney).
The point I am making is that Capitalism actually achieves the same as communism, but 'by a different route'.
The celebs I have quoted receive very little publicity for their good deeds; it is only by doing research that one comes up with the relevant information. The media would far rather devote their pages or screens with reports of people behaving badly - it goes for much better press.
Which paper would the average American go for if the opening headlines were ' Bill Gates gives $xxxxx to help the third World ? and another had headlines such as 'President found in locked broom closet with three female aides' ? I think you and I know which would sell more copies....
Which does in fact seem to indicate that you can give annonimously.
Does this bring on a different aspect to your original question?:jiggy:
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
Deut. 32.8 said:
I've edited my remarks to tone them down, but the nice-Jesus/ugly-Pharisee theme is little more than insipient antisemitism.
Deut,
Why do you consider this anti-semitism? Both Jesus and the Pharisees were Jews and "ugly-Pharisee" is not because they're Jewish but because of their behavior.
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
Mr_Spinkles said:
People want to be praised. They want the new hospital wing to be named after them. They want a little button that says "I donated blood!" and they want their peers to respect and admire them for being generous. People are only human, after all. :)
Interesting points. When I see an "I donated blood" button, it does make me aware that it's a need and I'll probably do something about it. In that sense I think you're right.

Naming a hospital wing is different. When I see the John J. Foote homeless shelter, it doesn't prompt me to think of donating any more to it than a general "Interfaith Homeless Shelter" would. In this particular case, the person in question donates..and yes he's doing something good....but it strikes the wrong chord when he gets up at the dedication ceremony talking about "all glory to God." I think he missed the boat on this one.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Melody said:
Both Jesus and the Pharisees were Jews and "ugly-Pharisee" is not because they're Jewish but because of their behavior.
How nice to know that you have a good grasp on the behavior of the religious leadership of the Jews - not the purported behavior of a couple of people mind you, but "their behavior", i.e., the behavior of the Pharisees.

Have you ever studied the 2nd Temple Period, or the Talmud, or the Mishna? Have you ever read the works of the people for whom you have such a casual contempt? And are you so willing to casually generalize "their behavior" when the 'they' in question are blacks or women?

Disgusting ...
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
Deut. 32.8 said:
How nice to know that you have a good grasp on the behavior of the religious leadership of the Jews - not the purported behavior of a couple of people mind you, but "their behavior", i.e., the behavior of the Pharisees.

Have you ever studied the 2nd Temple Period, or the Talmud, or the Mishna? Have you ever read the works of the people for whom you have such a casual contempt? And are you so willing to casually generalize "their behavior" when the 'they' in question are blacks or women?

Disgusting ...
What in heaven's name are you rambling on about? When I say "their" behavior I am talking about the Pharisees and the behavior of "the Pharisees" as portrayed in the Bible. What does this have to do with anti-semitism? The Pharisees were not a race of people, although they did happen to be Jewish....they were a "class" of people. Just as the Sadduccees were.

What is disgusting is how you're attacking me.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Ding ding.... seconds out please, for the next five minute round between Deut and Melody:jiggy:
 

Prima

Well-Known Member
:biglaugh:

Back on topic, anyway...

I think there's a difference between doing good works in public and flaunting your good works. The bit with the Pharisees...they would go out of their way to make people notice them. There was absolutely no need for everything they did.

So, say I make a donation. I don't make any attempt to hide it, I just do it. So my name is on their list or whatever, and if people see my name and want to say "Hey, great job, thanks for the contribution!" in whatever way they like, ok. That's different from going up to a desk and screaming "I'D LIKE TO MAKE A DONATION!" and then making sure EVERYONE knows your name and how much you gave, and the highlighting your name on the list and putting little stars around it.

I actually think it's wrong to go to excessive lengths to hide your good works.

I hope that halfway made sense...:sarcastic
 
Deut said:
I would be cautious about lending voice to the baseless anti-Judaic polemics that thread their way through the NT.
I know you would be, Deut, but unfortunately I am a bit more reckless. I phrased that last part poorly: I didn't mean to imply that the Pharisees opposed the concept of "love thy neighbor".
Deut said:
Leviticus is not a Christian text.
What is the relevancy of this? Please enlighten me.
 
Prima said:
The bit with the Pharisees...they would go out of their way to make people notice them. There was absolutely no need for everything they did.
That is how they are protrayed, at least, in the New Testament. I think Deut's point, Prima, is that how the Pharisees are portrayed in the NT and how they actually were historically are two vastly different things.
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
Melody said:
What is disgusting is how you're attacking me.
My apologies. My red headed temper got away from me. C'mere Deut so I can apologize up close and person <dusting off the gloves>. ;)
 

Prima

Well-Known Member
Oh, I wasn't concerned with the mini-debate that bounded into the topic, I was ignoring that :) My comments about the Pharisees with used merely as a well-know (albeit slightly incorrect) example.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am HaShem.

The mandate to "love thy neighbor" was/is a precept of Judaism, including the normative Judaism of the Pharisees.
 

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
Spinks, you do have a point about communism, but the point of Christianity is that we are supposed to be striving to do what's right above and beyond what is considered humanly possible. We are supposed to be asking God for his strength and his help to do what's right. That's why even though doing things in private can be hard because you don't get any encouragement or respect out of it, it is good because you talk to God in your heart and say, hey, I am doing this for you and I know you see and like me and what I'm doing, so that's alright.

And the right thing is, to do things in secret to please God. If you do things in public just to get praise from other people, you are bringing honor to yourself but not to God. If you do things in secret knowing that you wil get rewards in heaven, I think God will still honor that because you have to have faith to even think like that in the first place. To trust and believe God that he WILL reward you eventually, even when you aren't gettin no respect on earth, ain't easy. I don't think that's necessarily selfish, unless you kind of take it completely wrong, you SHOULD be doing it because you LOVE the Lord and want to make him happy, and the rewards are just a bonus.


It's a fine, fine line.

It's like, if I get my husband a really good birthday present because I want everyone to see how generous and thoughtful and good I am, that is one thing. If I do it to get big hugs from my husband just because I want hugs from him, he will probably think I am still pretty good because I am trying to make him happy so that he'll make me happy, which is okay. But the best thing would be if I got him a good present and didn't tell anyone and did it JUST because I love him, and the hugs are a bonus. Sorry if that's a wierd comparison but I hope it makes sense.

Personally I try very hard to keep all the good deeds I do a secret, and kind of get disappointed in myself when I mention anything I am doing, because I know it all comes out of conceit and wanting other people to think you are all that and a bag of chips. I wish people did think good things of me, and the only time it is a really big temptation to brag about the good I do is when other people say accuse me of not living my faith.

So, okay, you have to do some good things in front of other people so that you can show others that you ARE in fact living your faith, but you gotta have a good attitude about it and still not do it just to get noticed.

Hey, I think the best way I can say it is this:

If your doing it to please God and bring honor to him, it's right. If you're doing it to please yourself or get recognition for yourself instead, to quote one of my brother's favorite lines, "you need to chickety check yourself before you rickety wreck yourself."
 

Chris

Member
But I've been thinking...is this really realistic? I mean, people like to be praised for doing good things....and most of us like to praise people for doing good things. Furthermore, when we see other people doing good works publicly--like the celebrity who donates a large sum of money to some charity--it encourages others to give. If people are praised by others for giving, they will give more, just as a child will want to behave if he/she is praised by his/her parents for being good.
Well, one could say that 1st century AD and today, are quite different. For one thing, there was no mass media, so I doubt charities, or contributors were as well publicised.
But I believe Jesus was just trying to show that it's what's in the heart that counts. You can give all the money that you have to some charity, but if you don't do it with the right heart (or motive..), then it means nothing to God.
 

Nick Soapdish

Secret Agent
Charity is done out of obedience to God, not under the notion that now God owes you one. Most Christians believe that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, but a true faith will not be a faith that is without good deeds. People should be charitable because that's what God wants. Jesus does say there will be a reward, but He does not specify what the reward is.

Also, the motive behind charity is what makes it good. Simply buying recognition and popularity is not charitable. Charity usually has to do with the giving of oneself for the benefit of another. This includes the caretaking of a child, the giving of money to others in need, and taking injury for the safety of another. A mother should not care for her child just so that other people will say, "wow, what a great mother she is". That is pretty shallow. What happens when no one is looking? What sort of mother is she then?

As far as the communism vs. capitalism comparison, I believe you have some good insights there. Also, capitalism improves a person's ability to be charitable.
 
atofel said:
People should be charitable because that's what God wants.
I think people should be charitable because we will be happier that way. Aside from the fact that your view comes from one interpretation of the Bible, and radical Islam's view comes from one interpretation of the Koran, how is your statement fundamentally different from "People should wipe out the infidels because that's what God wants"?
 

Nick Soapdish

Secret Agent
Mr_Spinkles said:
I think people should be charitable because we will be happier that way.
Yes, I agree, that is a valid reason to be charitable. But I do not believe it is only reason.

Mr_Spinkles said:
Aside from the fact that your view comes from one interpretation of the Bible, and radical Islam's view comes from one interpretation of the Koran, how is your statement fundamentally different from "People should wipe out the infidels because that's what God wants"?
Wow, this is kind of like trying to explain religion to Lt. Commander Data. :) You have a very analytical mind.

I believe God exists and seek to understand Him. However, I do not accept any source of information that claims to be His word. When I read "love thy neighbor" in the Bible, I sense the truth. When I read "wipe out the infidels" I am repulsed.
 
atofel said:
Yes, I agree, that is a valid reason to be charitable. But I do not believe it is only reason.
Ah, I see.

atofel said:
I believe God exists and seek to understand Him. However, I do not accept any source of information that claims to be His word. When I read "love thy neighbor" in the Bible, I sense the truth. When I read "wipe out the infidels" I am repulsed.
I suppose this is a bit off topic, but I must ask....if this is the case, is it really "what God wants" or what you want God to want?
 
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