UberKinder
Member
- god is all powerful
- evil exists in the world
- god does not want evil to exist
let's see.
what reigion says that god is all powerful?
no pagan mythology that i know of : greco-roman gods died i.e. saturn/chronos from whose blood sprang venus/aphrodite , Scandinavian gods die i.e. ragnarok , Hindu gods die through flooding of the lower worlds at the end of the day of bhrama, this also takes buddism out of the loop since it is a branch of hinduism. Hmm, all powerful isn't meerly immortal and I have yet to work on monothism and atheism soo... God( the christian Jehova , hebrew Yaweh , the islamiic Allah [ altough there will undoubtedly be someone who will tell me that eithere the christian, islamic,or hebrew god isnt connected to the other two all three are in procession of eachother and share at least one holy text and as such are in my mind variations of the same religious philosophy]) proved his/her/it's limitations first with the need to make man to tend the garden of eden(wtf he/she/it couldn't foresee the trees needed to be weeded or sumthin'), secondly when cain fell abel he/she/it actually asked cain what he had done ( wtf the omnipotent being didn't know already?), and thirdly he again showed a lack of omnipotence when he asked adam and eve about the eating of the tree of knowlege good and evil ( yes i know this happened before cain and abel,although im not sure since when you read the damn thing it goes through the fitst seven days then goes back to the 4th to 5th [ been while since i read the thing] into detail about the creation of man and then original sin then goes forward with the story, kicks cain out , sends him west where he finds a wife , where the hell she came from i don't know...)but i digress there is no all powerful god, not textually, people tend to either believe he/she/it is all powerful or tell others that he/she/it/they are all powerfull to add validity to the act of worship, i mean c'mon who would want to bow down before the second best? this being my guess as to the choice of athiests - bow before none.
well on to evil.
what is evil? is evil an act or a state of mind or a place or a belief system or what?
ok most of us will agree that murder is evil? or if you are of the persuasion that says all morals exist in the minds of the individual and if a person deems murder ok then so mote it be; this person would have to at least give note to the fact that the majority of the world finds murder wrong and therefore the noncorporeal form of evil for us. for most of us then evil is an act against humanity, this then is one reason why evil exists. not by will of god or lack thereof but the need for humanity to ensure that act that threaten it are curbed as much as possile; this explais why incest, greed, murder, and sexual irresponsibility are at the root of nearly all religious value systems. evil is a way of measuring human actions. Yet , there are acts of such terrible magnitude that their occourance could destroy humanity in its entire...and no my american family i do not speak of terror[ re read this paragraph if you think so, please] i was thinking hiroshima and nagasaki. two acts that make 9-11 look like , like, like
.... this is what i call evil the destructtion of two cities, the fact that we were at war only makes the hundreds of thousands of civillian deaths worse. but the act isn't called evil any where by anyone even our japaneese cousins have had to silence thier rage through years of occupation and "co-operation", things like this happen because those with the most influence choose to ingnore their own value system. becoming of the persuasion that mass murder is ok , and so mote it has been . simply put evil only exists when we say it does for our own reasons.
so if "god" isn't all powerfull, and evil only exist when we need it to , what about god not wanting evil to exist?
hmm,i don't recall any god not wanting evil to exist. most gods are concerned with ruling their ... subjects, i would say sheep but i must tell the christian persuation sheep are not pets, sheep are used for their milk or wool while living and eaten once dead, and no matter how kindly the "shepard" this is the way it is, but back to my point.
name one god who makes a definite and recouring point to remove evil - you will be hard pressed to find any god who concerns him/her/itself with "evil" - Yahweh, Jehova, Allah doesn't concern himself with the removal of evil, oh use the flood as you example and i say what were those who were drowned doing? they were sinning , fornication idolatry and the ilk right? were did it come from ? well about 20 chapters earlier in the same book GENISIS there were these two innocent perfect people who were cast out into the harsh waste of earth for eating of the tree that contained teh knowlege of good and evil, wtf he/she/it had the damn tree if he/she/it wanted to eradicate good and evil he would have chopped down the friggin tree before mankind had a chance to eat it but since he/she/it isn't onmipotent or omnipresent he/she/it couldn't foresee the problems inherent with putting the tree there. oh how easliy the serpent comes to mind, but before you blame the serpent for sin and there fore evil and therefore proof all god cares about is ruling humans and their souls, let's goback a few more pages to the first seven when he/she/it was creating it all ... ahem ... creating it all ... he she it created eden WITH this tree that contained the knowledge of good and evil ... why did he/she/it need it want it or otherwise desire such a tree be here? whatever the explanation may be evil was allowed to exsist, primarily in the passive form of this fruit but it was ok. god doesn't care if evil exixts as long as YOU follow him and his son and prophets and clergy and rules. Pagans shold know that their gods also weren't concerned with evil, greco-roman kings zeus/jupiter, hades/pluto , triton/neptune killed chronos/saturn to become kings - murder 1 any one? Hindus? - hmm close but from what i gather your focus is to remove teh self from this place which is inherent to suffering. there is no care for the evil infact you lump it all as a fact of life, kharma, and say get the hell out of dodge. Norse/Scandinavian gods? well altough the trollish kingdoms were evil ther was nothing wrong with going aviking to rape and pillage and kill so evil had to be ok there at least for as long as you were out of the neighborhood.
so what is left , i guess i should comment on spititual son's post since mine would be in direct opposition to his and i need to adressit befor i make my closing staement:
1: God is Love itself and Wisdom itself, and these two constitute His Divine Essence.
would a wise god create a tree that when his children eat it he would have to kill them?
furthermore , he says that by eating (man) "has become like us"... who the hell are they and why do they need to know about evil? Why is there all of this evil in the beginning ? Why isn't he killing those "others" if they know about evil ? ... gimme a sec
:drink:
that's better.
now, 2: "It is also plain from man's primeval state in paradise. Evil, however, arose from man, as is plain from Adam's second* state, that is, after the fall, by his being expelled from paradise."
evil could not arrise from man , he was made perfect , am i right or are all the churches giving out fake bibles? evil is in eden, it is cultivated as part of a passive/forbidden knowledge. free will is the punishable act not the evil, for if adam or eve or lillith ( ahem.... ) did any "evil" acts they would have not been deemed evil due to ignorance, or more importantly god's evil actions would not have been understood as evil - like if naked is bad why are we naked and oblivious to it also, is god like a grand peeking tom, does he like to watch naked humans ?
"...who told you you were naked?" :drink:
3:"It is clear from these facts that if free will in spiritual matters had not been given to man, God Himself, and not man, would have been the cause of evil; in this case God would have created both good and evil, and it is wicked even to think that God created evil too."
"The reason why God did not create evil, since He bestowed on man free will in spiritual matters, and never puts any evil into his mind, is that He is good itself, and in good God is omnipresent, continually urging and demanding to be received."
where does god allow man free will in spiritual matters? the serpent, through it's logic and reasoning, allowed man free will and please do not forget it my friend.
"it is wicked even to think that God created evil too"... why he made the tree, he ate of the tree or somehow thus knew our state was not right..." we saw that we were naked and hid ourselves"..."who told you you were naked" and then killed us , made ourlives hell and childbirth unbelievably painfull and all we did was know what he knew. If that isn't evil then roll out the red tape for the great mental slavemasters.
"The reason why God did not create evil, since He bestowed on man free will in spiritual matters, and never puts any evil into his mind, is that He is good itself, and in good God is omnipresent, continually urging and demanding to be received." see above
4:"For if He did, man would instantly die, or rather dissolve into non-existence, since man gets his life, and the continued existence of all he consists of, from God."
Man is dead to god, we have inherited death due to our human birth , he stays no hand in mans death, instant death would be then the mostmerciful thing he could afront us as his children. If man gets his life from god then he gets the pain and struggle that defines his soul from god , the soul that is judged is formed by god then ... why judge something you your self designed?
5: I hope you do not take this responce personally but i quote you SpiritualSon:
"Evil was not created by God but introduced by man, because man turns the good which continually flows in from God into evil, by turning away from God and turning towards himself."
I have shown that he/she/it made evil through a fruit that contained in it knowledge that he/she/it found most offencive , he/she/it was not able to forsee the eating of this fruit, and after his children exercised free will, a gift from the wise serpent, he pinished us with death suffering and for women, the gates of life, with out who ther would be no humanity and whom he forgot when creating humanity, for these blessed persons greater pains. without these actions we would be the ingorant slaves tending the garden of a mental tyrant pervert for all eternity.
"When this happens, the pleasure given by good remains, but it now becomes the pleasure given by evil. For without an apparently similar pleasure being left man would cease to live, since it is pleasure which makes up the vital principle of his love. These two pleasures are still diametrically opposed, though a person is unaware of this so long as he lives in the world. After death, however, he will know this and indeed feel it plainly, for then the pleasure given by the love of good is turned into heavenly blessedness, but the pleasure given by the love of evil into the torments of hell."
You have just made the point of Pavlovian psychology and extend a perfect example of why you skirt the true subject of this dialogue - If god were all powerful, and opposed to evil, he could simply do away with it. You speak of pleasure - stimulus , good and evil - opposed behavior , heaven - a reward for behavior that was conductive to the stimulus, and hell - a punishment for behavior in opposition to the stimulus. This is behavior modification at its finest perfected over 5000 years on judeo/christian believers. if this is the way god works then i cannot believe, for to believe i would forfeit my soul.
in closing i'll sumarise my take on the question -
- god is all powerful
- evil exists in the world
- god does not want evil to exist
in short, wtf is goin' on?
well god isn't all powerful his followers believe he is and the myth has grown with them.
evil exists becouse we need it to , it is a desisive form of thought control and behavior modification , like squirting your cat if he jumps onto the counter. Atrocious acts that surpass any classification of evil have happend and we all can sleep with it. so what is evil?
finally, god doesn't care about evil, all he/she/it cares about is whether or not he/she/it is worshiped and you pay your dues.
:drink: well at least the beer is good.
- evil exists in the world
- god does not want evil to exist
let's see.
what reigion says that god is all powerful?
no pagan mythology that i know of : greco-roman gods died i.e. saturn/chronos from whose blood sprang venus/aphrodite , Scandinavian gods die i.e. ragnarok , Hindu gods die through flooding of the lower worlds at the end of the day of bhrama, this also takes buddism out of the loop since it is a branch of hinduism. Hmm, all powerful isn't meerly immortal and I have yet to work on monothism and atheism soo... God( the christian Jehova , hebrew Yaweh , the islamiic Allah [ altough there will undoubtedly be someone who will tell me that eithere the christian, islamic,or hebrew god isnt connected to the other two all three are in procession of eachother and share at least one holy text and as such are in my mind variations of the same religious philosophy]) proved his/her/it's limitations first with the need to make man to tend the garden of eden(wtf he/she/it couldn't foresee the trees needed to be weeded or sumthin'), secondly when cain fell abel he/she/it actually asked cain what he had done ( wtf the omnipotent being didn't know already?), and thirdly he again showed a lack of omnipotence when he asked adam and eve about the eating of the tree of knowlege good and evil ( yes i know this happened before cain and abel,although im not sure since when you read the damn thing it goes through the fitst seven days then goes back to the 4th to 5th [ been while since i read the thing] into detail about the creation of man and then original sin then goes forward with the story, kicks cain out , sends him west where he finds a wife , where the hell she came from i don't know...)but i digress there is no all powerful god, not textually, people tend to either believe he/she/it is all powerful or tell others that he/she/it/they are all powerfull to add validity to the act of worship, i mean c'mon who would want to bow down before the second best? this being my guess as to the choice of athiests - bow before none.
well on to evil.
what is evil? is evil an act or a state of mind or a place or a belief system or what?
ok most of us will agree that murder is evil? or if you are of the persuasion that says all morals exist in the minds of the individual and if a person deems murder ok then so mote it be; this person would have to at least give note to the fact that the majority of the world finds murder wrong and therefore the noncorporeal form of evil for us. for most of us then evil is an act against humanity, this then is one reason why evil exists. not by will of god or lack thereof but the need for humanity to ensure that act that threaten it are curbed as much as possile; this explais why incest, greed, murder, and sexual irresponsibility are at the root of nearly all religious value systems. evil is a way of measuring human actions. Yet , there are acts of such terrible magnitude that their occourance could destroy humanity in its entire...and no my american family i do not speak of terror[ re read this paragraph if you think so, please] i was thinking hiroshima and nagasaki. two acts that make 9-11 look like , like, like
.... this is what i call evil the destructtion of two cities, the fact that we were at war only makes the hundreds of thousands of civillian deaths worse. but the act isn't called evil any where by anyone even our japaneese cousins have had to silence thier rage through years of occupation and "co-operation", things like this happen because those with the most influence choose to ingnore their own value system. becoming of the persuasion that mass murder is ok , and so mote it has been . simply put evil only exists when we say it does for our own reasons. so if "god" isn't all powerfull, and evil only exist when we need it to , what about god not wanting evil to exist?
hmm,i don't recall any god not wanting evil to exist. most gods are concerned with ruling their ... subjects, i would say sheep but i must tell the christian persuation sheep are not pets, sheep are used for their milk or wool while living and eaten once dead, and no matter how kindly the "shepard" this is the way it is, but back to my point.
name one god who makes a definite and recouring point to remove evil - you will be hard pressed to find any god who concerns him/her/itself with "evil" - Yahweh, Jehova, Allah doesn't concern himself with the removal of evil, oh use the flood as you example and i say what were those who were drowned doing? they were sinning , fornication idolatry and the ilk right? were did it come from ? well about 20 chapters earlier in the same book GENISIS there were these two innocent perfect people who were cast out into the harsh waste of earth for eating of the tree that contained teh knowlege of good and evil, wtf he/she/it had the damn tree if he/she/it wanted to eradicate good and evil he would have chopped down the friggin tree before mankind had a chance to eat it but since he/she/it isn't onmipotent or omnipresent he/she/it couldn't foresee the problems inherent with putting the tree there. oh how easliy the serpent comes to mind, but before you blame the serpent for sin and there fore evil and therefore proof all god cares about is ruling humans and their souls, let's goback a few more pages to the first seven when he/she/it was creating it all ... ahem ... creating it all ... he she it created eden WITH this tree that contained the knowledge of good and evil ... why did he/she/it need it want it or otherwise desire such a tree be here? whatever the explanation may be evil was allowed to exsist, primarily in the passive form of this fruit but it was ok. god doesn't care if evil exixts as long as YOU follow him and his son and prophets and clergy and rules. Pagans shold know that their gods also weren't concerned with evil, greco-roman kings zeus/jupiter, hades/pluto , triton/neptune killed chronos/saturn to become kings - murder 1 any one? Hindus? - hmm close but from what i gather your focus is to remove teh self from this place which is inherent to suffering. there is no care for the evil infact you lump it all as a fact of life, kharma, and say get the hell out of dodge. Norse/Scandinavian gods? well altough the trollish kingdoms were evil ther was nothing wrong with going aviking to rape and pillage and kill so evil had to be ok there at least for as long as you were out of the neighborhood.
so what is left , i guess i should comment on spititual son's post since mine would be in direct opposition to his and i need to adressit befor i make my closing staement:
1: God is Love itself and Wisdom itself, and these two constitute His Divine Essence.
would a wise god create a tree that when his children eat it he would have to kill them?
furthermore , he says that by eating (man) "has become like us"... who the hell are they and why do they need to know about evil? Why is there all of this evil in the beginning ? Why isn't he killing those "others" if they know about evil ? ... gimme a sec
:drink:
that's better.
now, 2: "It is also plain from man's primeval state in paradise. Evil, however, arose from man, as is plain from Adam's second* state, that is, after the fall, by his being expelled from paradise."
evil could not arrise from man , he was made perfect , am i right or are all the churches giving out fake bibles? evil is in eden, it is cultivated as part of a passive/forbidden knowledge. free will is the punishable act not the evil, for if adam or eve or lillith ( ahem.... ) did any "evil" acts they would have not been deemed evil due to ignorance, or more importantly god's evil actions would not have been understood as evil - like if naked is bad why are we naked and oblivious to it also, is god like a grand peeking tom, does he like to watch naked humans ?
"...who told you you were naked?" :drink:
3:"It is clear from these facts that if free will in spiritual matters had not been given to man, God Himself, and not man, would have been the cause of evil; in this case God would have created both good and evil, and it is wicked even to think that God created evil too."
"The reason why God did not create evil, since He bestowed on man free will in spiritual matters, and never puts any evil into his mind, is that He is good itself, and in good God is omnipresent, continually urging and demanding to be received."
where does god allow man free will in spiritual matters? the serpent, through it's logic and reasoning, allowed man free will and please do not forget it my friend.
"it is wicked even to think that God created evil too"... why he made the tree, he ate of the tree or somehow thus knew our state was not right..." we saw that we were naked and hid ourselves"..."who told you you were naked" and then killed us , made ourlives hell and childbirth unbelievably painfull and all we did was know what he knew. If that isn't evil then roll out the red tape for the great mental slavemasters.
"The reason why God did not create evil, since He bestowed on man free will in spiritual matters, and never puts any evil into his mind, is that He is good itself, and in good God is omnipresent, continually urging and demanding to be received." see above
4:"For if He did, man would instantly die, or rather dissolve into non-existence, since man gets his life, and the continued existence of all he consists of, from God."
Man is dead to god, we have inherited death due to our human birth , he stays no hand in mans death, instant death would be then the mostmerciful thing he could afront us as his children. If man gets his life from god then he gets the pain and struggle that defines his soul from god , the soul that is judged is formed by god then ... why judge something you your self designed?
5: I hope you do not take this responce personally but i quote you SpiritualSon:
"Evil was not created by God but introduced by man, because man turns the good which continually flows in from God into evil, by turning away from God and turning towards himself."
I have shown that he/she/it made evil through a fruit that contained in it knowledge that he/she/it found most offencive , he/she/it was not able to forsee the eating of this fruit, and after his children exercised free will, a gift from the wise serpent, he pinished us with death suffering and for women, the gates of life, with out who ther would be no humanity and whom he forgot when creating humanity, for these blessed persons greater pains. without these actions we would be the ingorant slaves tending the garden of a mental tyrant pervert for all eternity.
"When this happens, the pleasure given by good remains, but it now becomes the pleasure given by evil. For without an apparently similar pleasure being left man would cease to live, since it is pleasure which makes up the vital principle of his love. These two pleasures are still diametrically opposed, though a person is unaware of this so long as he lives in the world. After death, however, he will know this and indeed feel it plainly, for then the pleasure given by the love of good is turned into heavenly blessedness, but the pleasure given by the love of evil into the torments of hell."
You have just made the point of Pavlovian psychology and extend a perfect example of why you skirt the true subject of this dialogue - If god were all powerful, and opposed to evil, he could simply do away with it. You speak of pleasure - stimulus , good and evil - opposed behavior , heaven - a reward for behavior that was conductive to the stimulus, and hell - a punishment for behavior in opposition to the stimulus. This is behavior modification at its finest perfected over 5000 years on judeo/christian believers. if this is the way god works then i cannot believe, for to believe i would forfeit my soul.
in closing i'll sumarise my take on the question -
- god is all powerful
- evil exists in the world
- god does not want evil to exist
in short, wtf is goin' on?
well god isn't all powerful his followers believe he is and the myth has grown with them.
evil exists becouse we need it to , it is a desisive form of thought control and behavior modification , like squirting your cat if he jumps onto the counter. Atrocious acts that surpass any classification of evil have happend and we all can sleep with it. so what is evil?
finally, god doesn't care about evil, all he/she/it cares about is whether or not he/she/it is worshiped and you pay your dues.
:drink: well at least the beer is good.
