Questions for Mormons

I'm reading Shattered Dreams, by Irene Spencer. Here's some of what she says about the theology she was taught in her Mormon fundamentalist splinter group upbringing:

"...this planet was given to Adam as a reward for his own obedience to the Celestial Law on some other world. Adam, known prior to his earthly incarnation as Michael the Archangel, was granted the status of a god be cause of his righteous life. Earth was to be his domain, and the wives and children he acquired on that other world were to help him populate this one, which he would then rule over as God the Father, spoken of in the Christian scriptures. Adam came to Earth with one of his celestial wives to begin mortal life for their spirit children. Their primary mission was to procreate and populate their world, providing bodies to all their spirit children...
Adam chose Jesus, the firstborn of his innumerable offspring in the Preexistence, to be the second member of the Trinity. While here on Earth, before he was sacrificed for the sins of humanity, Jesus himself had at least two wives...When Jesus returns to resurrect the dead, he will exalt to the highest level of celestial glory all male children of the covenant who have succeeded well in living the Principle. They will become gods of their own worlds...
The wives and children sealed to a deserving man while on Earth will assist him in populating the world he is given to rule over in the next link of this godhood chain...
Women cannot become gods in their own right. A woman's hope lay solely in being a wife and mother--one of many wives to her husband, mother of many, many children. She thereby contributes to her husband's future kingdom and will ultimately share in his glory as a goddess, an immortal being who will rune under him and alongside her sister wives for eternity. A woman is dependent on her husband to "pull her through the veil" of daeth into heaven and divinity."

My question: how much of this, if any, is part of the theology you were taught in the mainstream LDS church?

Autodidact said:

I'm reading Shattered Dreams, by Irene Spencer. Here's some of what she says about the theology she was taught in her Mormon fundamentalist splinter group upbringing:

"...this planet was given to Adam as a reward for his own obedience to the Celestial Law on some other world. Adam, known prior to his earthly incarnation as Michael the Archangel, was granted the status of a god be cause of his righteous life. Earth was to be his domain, and the wives and children he acquired on that other world were to help him populate this one, which he would then rule over as God the Father, spoken of in the Christian scriptures. Adam came to Earth with one of his celestial wives to begin mortal life for their spirit children. Their primary mission was to procreate and populate their world, providing bodies to all their spirit children...
Adam chose Jesus, the firstborn of his innumerable offspring in the Preexistence, to be the second member of the Trinity. While here on Earth, before he was sacrificed for the sins of humanity, Jesus himself had at least two wives...When Jesus returns to resurrect the dead, he will exalt to the highest level of celestial glory all male children of the covenant who have succeeded well in living the Principle. They will become gods of their own worlds...
The wives and children sealed to a deserving man while on Earth will assist him in populating the world he is given to rule over in the next link of this godhood chain...
Women cannot become gods in their own right. A woman's hope lay solely in being a wife and mother--one of many wives to her husband, mother of many, many children. She thereby contributes to her husband's future kingdom and will ultimately share in his glory as a goddess, an immortal being who will rune under him and alongside her sister wives for eternity. A woman is dependent on her husband to "pull her through the veil" of daeth into heaven and divinity."

My question: how much of this, if any, is part of the theology you were taught in the mainstream LDS church?

Click to expand...

I believe this is called the Adam-God theory and none of it is correct under LDS theology.

nutshell said:

I believe this is called the Adam-God theory and none of it is correct under LDS theology.

Click to expand...

None? Not the part about the afterlife either, that righteous male priests eventually achieve god-hood, and bring their wives with them?

This is all so interesting.

I have heard that theology, too. I decided (finally) to ask a Mormon about it instead of wondering if this was true theology or not. It does sound pretty far out.

Well of course from my point of view none of it is true, but I'm interested in how a new religion grows and changes, as well as splinters, all in just 100 years.

It's kind of like Christianity--it's hard to make a firm statement about what Christians in general, or Mormons in general, believe. Yet each group is working with the same scriptures. It's interesting.

It's also interesting how it's possible to persuade people that something is true, even something that sounds outlandish and weird to an outsider.

It's just all interesting.

And that's not even going into the blood atonement thing.

I've never heard of this teaching.

The problem with these kinds of stories is that we never which is true and which is a rumor. When I was in the Navy, the barracks I lived at had rumors going around about me that I knew weren't true at all, not even in the slightest bit. I give people the benefit of the doubt because I know how much it hurts to have people believe false things about you.

Well I don't think this is a rumor. I mean, the author was raised in this church, and has written an autobiography about her life; I think she knows what she's talking about. She became the second wive of Verlan LeBaron, part of a rather notorious polygamist family and splinter group/cult. I don't know how she's going to end up because I've just started it.

I was just trying to find out how similar these fundamentalist beliefs are to mainstream Mormon beliefs.

Autodidact said:

"...this planet was given to Adam as a reward for his own obedience to the Celestial Law on some other world.

Click to expand...

No. Adam was not on "some other world." He was created by God the Father sometime after the beginning when the Word was with God. I think he must have been something great, however, to be selected to be the first person on Earth.

Adam, known prior to his earthly incarnation as Michael the Archangel, was granted the status of a god be cause of his righteous life. Earth was to be his domain, and the wives and children he acquired on that other world were to help him populate this one, which he would then rule over as God the Father, spoken of in the Christian scriptures.

Click to expand...

Yes -Adam was/is Michael the Archangel. Perhaps his valiance in the pre-existance as Michael is what garnered him the responsibility to be the first man. However, there was no "other world" so there were no other "wives and children he acquired." Eve must have been another choice spirit created by God the Father.

Adam is NOT God the Father.

Adam came to Earth with one of his celestial wives to begin mortal life for their spirit children.

Click to expand...

As I said, Adam and Eve were not married prior to the creation of this Earth. They were not in a Celestial state.

Their primary mission was to procreate and populate their world, providing bodies to all their spirit children...

Click to expand...

We believe God's comman to Adam and Eve was to multiply and replenish the Earth - but that's not all they were called to do.

Adam chose Jesus, the firstborn of his innumerable offspring in the Preexistence, to be the second member of the Trinity.

Click to expand...

Adam did not chose Jesus. If there is a hierarchy, Jesus is above Adam. Jesus is the Word that was with God in the beginning - before Adam existed.

While here on Earth, before he was sacrificed for the sins of humanity, Jesus himself had at least two wives...

Click to expand...

There is no teaching that Jesus was married. There might be speculation, but that exists in any group inside or outside the church.

When Jesus returns to resurrect the dead, he will exalt to the highest level of celestial glory all male children of the covenant who have succeeded well in living the Principle. They will become gods of their own worlds...

Click to expand...

Men cannot be exalted without women. Also, I believe God does the exalting - not Jesus. Finally, we aren't positive what that means other than it means we will be "like-God."

The wives and children sealed to a deserving man while on Earth will assist him in populating the world he is given to rule over in the next link of this godhood chain...

Click to expand...

I've never heard of a godhood change. This quote also suggests the wives and children and subservient to the "deserving man," which isn't the case in LDS teachings.

Women cannot become gods in their own right. A woman's hope lay solely in being a wife and mother--one of many wives to her husband, mother of many, many children. She thereby contributes to her husband's future kingdom and will ultimately share in his glory as a goddess, an immortal being who will rune under him and alongside her sister wives for eternity. A woman is dependent on her husband to "pull her through the veil" of daeth into heaven and divinity."

Click to expand...

Men cannot become like-God in their own right. Only a man and woman may do so together. The purpose of this is to become like God - NOT to be a baby-making machine. If a woman is dependent on her husband she is no more dependant on him than he is on her.

Thanks nutshell. I do think though that religious beliefs should not be stated as facts. That is, you believe or the LDS Church believes thus and so, or according to the Mormon Church, etc.. Not, "Thus and so is fact."

So what can you tell me about Mormon doctrine re: the afterlife?

Autodidact said:

Thanks nutshell. I do think though that religious beliefs should not be stated as facts. That is, you believe or the LDS Church believes thus and so, or according to the Mormon Church, etc.. Not, "Thus and so is fact."

So what can you tell me about Mormon doctrine re: the afterlife?

Click to expand...

When we die our spirits and physical body separate. Our sprits go to the Spirit World, which is divided into two realms: Paradise and Spirit Prison.

Paradise is where those who have received Jesus Christ and his ordinances go.

Spirit Prison, while having an awful name, is not the Hell read about in the Bible. Rather, it is a place reserved for those who heard and understood the gospel of Jesus Christ and rejected it or those who never had an opportunity to properly and understand the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Those in Paradise will teach those who never had an opportunity about the gospel of Jesus Christ and his ordinances. Those spirits will have be given the choice to accept or not. If they accept Jesus Christ and his ordinances they may enter Paradise.

Because the ordinances typically take place on Earth using our physical bodies (example is baptism by immersion) the living perform proxy ordinances in LDS temples for and in behalf of the dead. This is why geneaology is imporatant within Mormonism.

Eventually, Christ will return to earth to rule as King and there will be a final judgment and resurrection (the reunification of the spirit with perfect imortal, physical bodies). In Mormonism, there are three possible destinations upon judgment: The Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestial Kingdom, and the Telestial Kingdom.

The Celestial Kingdom is compared to the glory of the Sun. The highest level of this kindom is reserved for men and women who accepted Jesus Christ and his ordinances and are sealed in the covenant. They are the ones who will become like God. In the Celestial Kindom, people will be able to be in the presence of and communicate with God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

The Terrestial Kingdom is compared to the glory of the Moon. This middle kingdom is for those who didn't go all they way in accepting Christ and his ordinances, but they aren't "bad" people either. They will receive visits from Jesus Christ, angels, and the Holy Ghost.

The Telestial Kingdom is compared to the glory of the stars. Note: This is a glorified place of eternal rest for those that go there. It is not a place of punishment or suffering. Indeed, some have speculated that if we could see the glory of this, the lowest kingdom, we would commit suicide now just to get there. This is the place reserved for those who rejected Christ and his ordinances and were perhaps not the kind of people you normally want to be around. The Holy Ghost will visit this place, but not God or Jesus Christ.



Judgment: Christ is our advocate with God. They will judge us, but I think we will also judge ourselves. We will know where we best "fit in."

This post should be regarded as a brief and general overview.

Autodidact said:

And that's not even going into the blood atonement thing.

Click to expand...

No big deal, anyone who is pro-death penalty, even non-LDS, believes in blood atonement. This is what the families mean when they say, "Why doesn't the State hurry up and execute him? We need closure."

Autodidact said:

So what can you tell me about Mormon doctrine re: the afterlife?

Click to expand...

If you feel up to a fairly lengthy but comprehensive reply, here's a thread I started a long time ago at someone's request:

The LDS Doctrine of the Afterlife

My explanation of our doctrine is in three parts. You'll have to read posts 1, 3 and 4 to get the whole story.

There are already some excellent replies to this question.

I hope you don't mind if I take the one line at a time thing.

Autodidact said:

"...this planet was given to Adam as a reward for his own obedience to the Celestial Law on some other world.

Click to expand...

No. I've never been taught this. What I have been taught is the in the Premortal life Adam was a very righteous spirit. BEing so righteous and obedient he earned the right to be the first Man on Earth.

Adam, known prior to his earthly incarnation as Michael the Archangel, was granted the status of a god be cause of his righteous life.

Click to expand...

I have never been taught this. I have been taught, that Adam's pre-mortal (and probably post mortal) name was and is Michael. I've never been taught that Adam was granted the status of god. But the word god (not God) could be used to describe any of the premortal spirits that lived with God. But using that meaning the word god would simply mean a heavenly being.

Earth was to be his domain, and the wives and children he acquired on that other world were to help him populate this one, which he would then rule over as God the Father, spoken of in the Christian scriptures.

Click to expand...

I've never been taught this either. LDS don't believe that Adam had wives of children before this life. But the belief you stated may come from speculation that God the Father at some point was the Son of his God the Father. He was born on a world obeyed His Father's commandments and became exhaled and became a God. He then had His own spirit children. We are those Spirit children. Of course that is not LDS doctrine either and it is simple speculation. But even in this speculation I've never heard that Adam is the God the Father of Earth.

Adam came to Earth with one of his celestial wives to begin mortal life for their spirit children.

Click to expand...

I've never been taught that Adam came to the Earth with one of his celestial wives. But I have been taught that the spirit child of God, Adam(Michael), came to Earth along with a spirit daughter of God, Eve. They gained physical bodies and were mnarried here on Earth.

Their primary mission was to procreate and populate their world, providing bodies to all their spirit children...

Click to expand...

One of Adam and Eve's purposes were to procreate to provide physical bodies for the rest of God the Father's spirit children waiting in the pre-mortal life.

Adam chose Jesus, the firstborn of his innumerable offspring in the Preexistence, to be the second member of the Trinity.

Click to expand...

I've never been taught this. I have been taught that Adam didn't choose Jesus for anything. God the Father chose Jesus to become His first born. We don't believe in the Trinity.

While here on Earth, before he was sacrificed for the sins of humanity, Jesus himself had at least two wives...

Click to expand...

I've heard speculation that Jesus married during his lifetime. But I've never been taught that in church. I personally believe that at some point Jesus will have at least one wife. But that is just my own personal speculation.

When Jesus returns to resurrect the dead, he will exalt to the highest level of celestial glory all male children of the covenant who have succeeded well in living the Principle. They will become gods of their own worlds...

Click to expand...

It is taught that all those who obey the commandment and live the ordinances of the Gospel will be able to reach the Celestial kingdom. But a Man alone or a woman alone cannot be exhalted in the Highest degree of the Celestial kingdom. Only a man and woman seal together in the temple can be exhalted. I believe that Christ already has attained the exaltation fo the highest degree even before this world was created. It is speculation in the church that those who are exhalted in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom will become God's of their own worlds. But the doctrine is that these people will become like God.

The wives and children sealed to a deserving man while on Earth will assist him in populating the world he is given to rule over in the next link of this godhood chain...

Click to expand...

Our doctrine is that a man and a woman sealed in the temple will be able to be exhalted. It is not required that a man have more than one wife but it is allowed. Although sealing to more than one living woman is not currently allowed in the church. A man without a woman cannot be exhalted. Also a woman without a man cannot e exhalted. Men and women must work together as equal partners. Actually more than equal partners. They must work as one. A man is nothing without the woman and a woman is nothing without the man.

Another note. The children of couples sealed in the temple can be sealed to their own spouses. The will still be children of their mortal parents but we are all literally brothers and sisters as literal children of God. We will have no authority over our mortal children in the Celestial Kingdom.

Women cannot become gods in their own right.

Click to expand...

This is true. But requires some explaination. firt the term 'god,' not 'God.' The woird 'god' in this sentence I will define as exhalted being. Women cannot be exhalted by themselves. But also men cannot be exhalted by themselves. Only together can they two be exhalted.

A woman's hope lay solely in being a wife and mother--

Click to expand...

Well this is partially true. A woman can only be exhalted as a wife. And a man can only be exhalted as a husband. Singles cannot be exhalted.

one of many wives to her husband,

Click to expand...

Some men may have more than one wife. It is not required to have more than one wife to be exhalted but it is allowed.

mother of many, many children.

Click to expand...

It is not required to be mother of many, many children, to be exhalted.

She thereby contributes to her husband's future kingdom and will ultimately share in his glory as a goddess, an immortal being who will rune under him and alongside her sister wives for eternity.

Click to expand...

We believe that a woman will not contrubuute to her husband's exhaltation. We believe that together as one the will recieve exhaltation together.

What do you mean by 'rune'? Rule, possible? A woman will not rule under her husband. but as stated before they wil be exhalted together as one. In cases of more than one wife that family will still have unity as one. No one under anyone else.

A woman is dependent on her husband to "pull her through the veil" of daeth into heaven and divinity."

Click to expand...

I've hear something smilar to this, but not exactly. We know that women are not dependant upon men to overcome death and enter the celestial kingdom.

My question: how much of this, if any, is part of the theology you were taught in the mainstream LDS church?

Click to expand...

There are some parts that we are taught but the vast majority of this is a mash up up our doctrine. As if someone put our doctrine in a blender and pieced it together.

Alright, bear with me on this. These polygamist fundamentalist Mormons (p.f.M's) are reading the same scriptures you are. They branched off from the mainstream LDS church only around 100 years ago. They are not dumber or more wicked than you are. Yet they have, apparently, a completely different theology than you. Children who grow up being taught that version, who have the same books and the same access to the holy spirit as you do, end up believing something quite different than you. And they are absolutely convinced that you have been led astray, and theirs is the true interpretation of Mormon doctrine. So, how do you know whether yours is right?

This is what always bothers me about non-evidence based belief systems. It seems to me that if you don't check your beliefs against evidence, there is absolutely no way to tell whether you're correct, and you're vulnerable to being persuaded of things that are obviously not true. (It's not possible that you're both right; one of you is quite wrong.) This is particularly true if you are raised to believe it. What makes you so confident that you're right, and they're wrong? Are you smarter than them? Closer to the holy spirit?

Autodidact said:

Alright, bear with me on this. These polygamist fundamentalist Mormons (p.f.M's) are reading the same scriptures you are. They branched off from the mainstream LDS church only around 100 years ago. They are not dumber or more wicked than you are.

Click to expand...

I'm sure that they are no less intelligent than the average person of any religion. They are, however, considerably less educated. Whereas the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints encourages its members to get all the education they possibly can, the majority of the "pfMs," as you call them, live in communities that are very isolated from the rest of society. Some of their kids are homeschooled, but most attend schools where the curiculum is established by the church leadership. They are taught only what their leaders want them to hear. As far as "wicked" is concerned, I don't suppose the vast majority of "pfMs" are wicked at all; Warren Jeffs, on the other hand, is a real piece of work.

Yet they have, apparently, a completely different theology than you. Children who grow up being taught that version, who have the same books and the same access to the holy spirit as you do, end up believing something quite different than you. And they are absolutely convinced that you have been led astray, and theirs is the true interpretation of Mormon doctrine. So, how do you know whether yours is right?

Click to expand...

Well, pretty much the same thing could be said about all Christians. They all use the Bible, and yet there are over 30,000 different Christian denominations worldwide. How do Lutherans know their interpretation of the Bible is right and that the Catholic interpretation is wrong? I don't personally think anyone has the right to judge someone else's spiritual experiences as less valid as their own. People have got to go with what works for them.

This is what always bothers me about non-evidence based belief systems. It seems to me that if you don't check your beliefs against evidence, there is absolutely no way to tell whether you're correct, and you're vulnerable to being persuaded of things that are obviously not true. (It's not possible that you're both right; one of you is quite wrong.) This is particularly true if you are raised to believe it. What makes you so confident that you're right, and they're wrong? Are you smarter than them? Closer to the holy spirit?

Click to expand...

I think I just answered that, but if I didn't, just tell me and I'll try again. There are a whole lot of reasons why I think my beliefs are more correct that the next person's, but none of those reasons may be good enough to convince anybody else. All I know is that I have to go with the belief system that makes sense to me. Sure, for an atheist, theism in general doesn't make sense, but that aside, who's to say that God is less likely to speak to a 14-year old boy than He is to cause a Virgin to become pregnant with His Son?

They don't read the same books as us either. Sure they may read the Bible and the Book of Mormon, but their D&C is different (no Official Declaration-1 for one thing), and depending on which group we're talking about, they may not even have the Pearl of Great Price.

Autodidact said:

Alright, bear with me on this. These polygamist fundamentalist Mormons (p.f.M's) are reading the same scriptures you are. They branched off from the mainstream LDS church only around 100 years ago. They are not dumber or more wicked than you are. Yet they have, apparently, a completely different theology than you. Children who grow up being taught that version, who have the same books and the same access to the holy spirit as you do, end up believing something quite different than you. And they are absolutely convinced that you have been led astray, and theirs is the true interpretation of Mormon doctrine. So, how do you know whether yours is right?

This is what always bothers me about non-evidence based belief systems. It seems to me that if you don't check your beliefs against evidence, there is absolutely no way to tell whether you're correct, and you're vulnerable to being persuaded of things that are obviously not true. (It's not possible that you're both right; one of you is quite wrong.) This is particularly true if you are raised to believe it. What makes you so confident that you're right, and they're wrong? Are you smarter than them? Closer to the holy spirit?

Click to expand...

Hello,

The notion that different interpretations lead to different conclusions is neither surprising nor remarkable. The reason for different interpretations within Mormon sects may relate to different doctrinal stresses and different accepted creedal and canonical works. This can also be seen in larger Christianity and other faiths as well i.e. Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism etc.

As to some verification schema: I think most Mormons (as well as the actual tenets of the faith) would agree that assertion alone is not compelling. Fundamental to LDS claims is the idea that any and all can know for themselves whether the truth claims made are what they purport. Personal revelation is a central epistemic posture.