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I don't know where to post this topic at...but why do Catholics pray to Mary?

christian_cutie

Oh snapp its me.
Ok so I do not know if I am posting this in the right area (probably not with my luck) but from what I am told Catholics pray to Mary. I attend a Nazarene church. I was raised Baptist though. I call myself a Christian or Protestant. My boyfriend is Catholic && I asked him why they pray to Mary. He said they pray to them because she can help them. That is not true. She cannot help them or perform miracles. Catholics claim that they ask Mary to ask Jesus for help. Well scripture clearly states that the only way to the Father is through Jesus. Catholics are all like we don't pray to her we ask her to ask Jesus for help. Well she isn't here on this Earth living so how do you talk to her. Oh that is right you call upon her name. Which to me is praying to her. And then Catholics throw it back in our face && say you ask other people and you pastors to pray for you. True but not. In you defense it doesn't work because we can come right back and say true...but we pray together as brothers and sisters in Christ. We pray for eachother but when we pray for eachother we ask GOD for healing and help NOT Mary. I am not trying to be rude towards Catholics because I agree with some of the things they believe but the praying to Mary thing is the one thing I do not agree with. I just want to know why.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Cutie... You may want to PM one of the moderators or administrators and ask that they move this to the Catholic DIR forum.
 
to christian cutie: Hi, you ask why do catholics pray to mary.Well it's like this ,she was the mother of jesus,and as such she occupies a high position in the holy family. Remember ,jesus performed his first miracle at her request,,the wedding feast at Cana!Now it seems likely that if you ask for Marys' intercession ,jesus may acquiesce....harley davidson
 

Francine

Well-Known Member
Catholics don't pray TO Mary, we ask Mary to pray for us the same way I ask some of my living relatives to pray for me. The doctrine of the communion of Saints means that death is not a barrier between the Church Militant here on Earth, and the Church Triumphant in heaven. We are all one body of believers, and death is not a wall.
 

Francine

Well-Known Member
Do you have anything to support this view of being able to speak to the dead?

Hebrews 12:22-23 says Christians on earth "have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect."
 

Abdon

Member
It would be a mortal sin for any Catholic to regard Mary as a goddess. If a Catholic expressed such a belief to a priest in Confession he would be refused absolution unless he promised to renounce such an absurd idea. If you wish to attack Catholic doctrine, at least find out what Catholics do believe before you begin as it is what Catholics actually belief and not what you think or falsely accuse us of believing that counts.

We Catholics do not give worship to Mary, the Mother of Christ, but what we do give her is the best that we can in the giving, namely, homage, veneration, reverence, but never worship, this is inline with the scriptures in Luke 1:48 "for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

We have enough intelligence to know that Mary the woman who gave human bone, human flesh and and human feature to the Saviour of Mankind was not a goddess but a human memeber of the human race.

We pray to Mary Because God wills that we should do it, and because such prayers to her are of utmost value. God often wills to give certain favours only on condition that we go to some secondary agent. Sodom was to be spared through the intercession of Abraham, Genesis 18:20-23. Naaman, the leper, was to be cured only through the waters of the Jordan, 4 Kings 5:9-14. Now Mary is, and must ever remain the Mother of Christ. She still has a mother's rights and privileges, and is able to obtain for us many graces. Also Christ is her Son and obeys the commandments of his Father he honours Mary as commanded in the fourth commandment given in Exodus 20:12: "[SIZE=-1]Honor your father and your mother". We see this most directly at the wedding feast at Cana when at his mothers request He turned water into wine.

But let us view things reasonably. If I desire to pray, I can certainly pray to God directly. Yet would you blame me if, at times, I were to ask my own earthly mother to pray for me also? Such a request is really a prayer to her that she may intercede for me with God. Certainly, if I met the mother of Christ on earth, I would ask her to pray for me, and she would do so. And in her more perfect state with Christ in Heaven she is more able to help me.

Now as Catholics we know that Mary hears us because the Catholic Church which has been given the authority to make known the truth by Christ Himself gurantees it. Reason also assures us that, as she could know our prayers in this life and pray for us in turn, so she can do so in the more perfect state in Heaven. Finally experience proves it, for she has manifested her power, granted to her thorugh Christ in thousands of concrete instances in answer to prayers.

Also your assertation that we cannot talk ot her because she is Heaven is false and unscriptural.

Moses and Elijah were "deceased" but Christ conversed with them while he was on earth,[/SIZE] Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30.

Those in Heaven are not sperated from us but rather are filled with joy when we do good, Luke 15:7,10.

Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven, John 15:1-6.

1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. Mary in Heaven is more alive than we are!

Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven, and Mary is the Mother.

Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints – and He obviously would not have been worshiping them in so doing – then so can we, who need their help infinitely more than Jesus, and without engaging in idolatry. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.

Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.

John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul

Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah's prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.

2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
 

trinity2359

Active Member
Rev 5:8 reads:
"When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. " (NAB) The Holy Ones are saints and thus they pray to God and Mary is one of the saints.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
It would be a mortal sin for any Catholic to regard Mary as a goddess. If a Catholic expressed such a belief to a priest in Confession he would be refused absolution unless he promised to renounce such an absurd idea. If you wish to attack Catholic doctrine, at least find out what Catholics do believe before you begin as it is what Catholics actually belief and not what you think or falsely accuse us of believing that counts.

We Catholics do not give worship to Mary, the Mother of Christ, but what we do give her is the best that we can in the giving, namely, homage, veneration, reverence, but never worship, this is inline with the scriptures in Luke 1:48 "for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

We have enough intelligence to know that Mary the woman who gave human bone, human flesh and and human feature to the Saviour of Mankind was not a goddess but a human memeber of the human race.

We pray to Mary Because God wills that we should do it, and because such prayers to her are of utmost value. God often wills to give certain favours only on condition that we go to some secondary agent. Sodom was to be spared through the intercession of Abraham, Genesis 18:20-23. Naaman, the leper, was to be cured only through the waters of the Jordan, 4 Kings 5:9-14. Now Mary is, and must ever remain the Mother of Christ. She still has a mother's rights and privileges, and is able to obtain for us many graces. Also Christ is her Son and obeys the commandments of his Father he honours Mary as commanded in the fourth commandment given in Exodus 20:12: "[SIZE=-1]Honor your father and your mother". We see this most directly at the wedding feast at Cana when at his mothers request He turned water into wine.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]But let us view things reasonably. If I desire to pray, I can certainly pray to God directly. Yet would you blame me if, at times, I were to ask my own earthly mother to pray for me also? Such a request is really a prayer to her that she may intercede for me with God. Certainly, if I met the mother of Christ on earth, I would ask her to pray for me, and she would do so. And in her more perfect state with Christ in Heaven she is more able to help me.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Now as Catholics we know that Mary hears us because the Catholic Church which has been given the authority to make known the truth by Christ Himself gurantees it. Reason also assures us that, as she could know our prayers in this life and pray for us in turn, so she can do so in the more perfect state in Heaven. Finally experience proves it, for she has manifested her power, granted to her thorugh Christ in thousands of concrete instances in answer to prayers.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Also your assertation that we cannot talk ot her because she is Heaven is false and unscriptural. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Moses and Elijah were "deceased" but Christ conversed with them while he was on earth,[/SIZE] Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30.

Those in Heaven are not sperated from us but rather are filled with joy when we do good, Luke 15:7,10.

Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven, John 15:1-6.

1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. Mary in Heaven is more alive than we are!

Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven, and Mary is the Mother.

Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints – and He obviously would not have been worshiping them in so doing – then so can we, who need their help infinitely more than Jesus, and without engaging in idolatry. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.

Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.

John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul

Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah's prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.

2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.

I made a statement that Pagans found a substitute and felt comforted praying to a female, I never said Mary was a goddess, but it would be hard to tell after attending some of the masses I attended back in the 1960's. Mary might not be a goddess, but she sure is treated like one. The stained glass appeased the sun god worshipers as well.

You have to admit that the use of incense and ritual has some similarities to pagan rituals. The converted pagan found the church of Rome very satisfying, that is all I am saying.

I never said you could not talk to the dead, I only asked for scripture about this which Francine was gracious enough to provide.
 

Abdon

Member
I made a statement that Pagans found a substitute and felt comforted praying to a female, I never said Mary was a goddess, but it would be hard to tell after attending some of the masses I attended back in the 1960's. Mary might not be a goddess, but she sure is treated like one. The stained glass appeased the sun god worshipers as well.

You have to admit that the use of incense and ritual has some similarities to pagan rituals. The converted pagan found the church of Rome very satisfying, that is all I am saying.

I never said you could not talk to the dead, I only asked for scripture about this which Francine was gracious enough to provide.

I wasn't really addressing your post but rather the original posters.

It's easy to tell they don't worship Mary as a goddess you just have to ask someone and they will tell you no. The use of incense and ritual was used by the Jews as well where they pagans? The sacrifice offered on an altar started with Cain and Abel and was continued by the Jews replaced by the Holy sacrifice of the Mass by Christ Himself, that pagans also offered sacrifices does not mean that all people who do are pagans, God Himself commanded these sacrifices and offerings of incense. The intention of the people making the offering is what ultimately decides, and you can only know this by asking them. Go and read the Nicene Creed if you want to know who we offer these things to.

What you should really be asking is why many who call themselves followers of Christ and claim to worship the God of Abraham do not do these things.

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. Malachias 1:11 KJV
 

rheff78

I'm your huckleberry.
Again, listen to Francine's post. We don't pray TO Mary, we pray THROUGH Mary. She is the great intercessor. Also, mary was taken BODY and SOUL into heaven. So we aren't praying to the dead.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
I wasn't really addressing your post but rather the original posters.

It's easy to tell they don't worship Mary as a goddess you just have to ask someone and they will tell you no. The use of incense and ritual was used by the Jews as well where they pagans? The sacrifice offered on an altar started with Cain and Abel and was continued by the Jews replaced by the Holy sacrifice of the Mass by Christ Himself, that pagans also offered sacrifices does not mean that all people who do are pagans, God Himself commanded these sacrifices and offerings of incense. The intention of the people making the offering is what ultimately decides, and you can only know this by asking them. Go and read the Nicene Creed if you want to know who we offer these things to.

What you should really be asking is why many who call themselves followers of Christ and claim to worship the God of Abraham do not do these things.

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. Malachias 1:11 KJV

We are under the new covenant. Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice so no others would be necessary. Do we really want to live by the old testament?

Actually, continuing sacrifices after Jesus made the ultimate one, is an insult to Jesus.
 

Abdon

Member
We are under the new covenant.

I know this.

Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice so no others would be necessary.

Where did He say no sacrifices are to be offered? Where did I say it was another sacrifice? It is the very same sacrifice Jesus made.

The sacrifice that takes place at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the sacrifice of Jesus.

Do we really want to live by the old testament?

Who said anything about living by the Old Testament? However the Old Testament is the inspired word of God and much of it is retained in the New Covenant, the obvious example been the Ten Commandments. As such you cannot simply ignore the Old Testament because you don't like it.

Also the scripture I posted was a prophecy inspired by the Holy Spirit predicting the spread of Christianity among the Gentiles, it was not speaking of the old covenant it was prophecising the coming ofthe new. Lets read it again:

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. Malachias 1:11 KJV

The Body and Blood of Christ is the pure offering which was predicted to be offered in "every place". The Catholic Church offers this sacrifice all over the world fulfilling the "every place" prediction. When God would be known and worshipped by the Gentiles, again it has been the Catholic Church that has made known God's name among the Gentiles.

Actually, continuing sacrifices after Jesus made the ultimate one, is an insult to Jesus.

How can it be an insult to obey Him? As I said it is His sacrifice which takes place.

Many do not realize it, but Christ Himself offered the first Mass at the Last Supper when He offered (sacrificed) Himself to His Father in an unbloody manner, that is, under the form of bread and wine, in anticipation of His bloody sacrifice on the cross to be offered on the following day.

In the Mass, Christ continues to make that offering of Himself to His Father, by the hands of the priest.

"And while they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: "Take and eat. This is my body." And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying: "All of you drink of this. For this is my blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins", Mt 26:26-28.

Christ ordered His Church to perpetuate that sacrificial rite for the continued sanctification of His followers, saying, "Do this in remembrance of me," Luke 22:19.

The Catholic Church complies with His order in the Mass. The Mass is a re-enactment of Our Lord's one sacrifice of Calvary. It is that same sacrifice, not another, Heb 10:12.

We, are in time, and to us it would seem that this one sacrifice was consummated 2000 years ago. GOD, however is outside of time and space.

Everything is now in GOD's eyes, and so we are taken back to that one sacrifice as if it were happening now at each and every Mass.

The Catholic Church teaches that the sacrifice on the Cross was a complete and perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of GOD, offered once.

St. Paul bears witness that the sacrificial rite which Christ instituted at the Last Supper is to be perpetuated, and that it is not only important for man's sanctification, but is the principal factor in man's final redemption.

In 1Cor 11:23-26, St. Paul told how, at the Last Supper, Our Lord said: "For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until He comes."

During the Breaking of the Bread, we say twice, "Lamb of GOD, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us," and a third time, "Lamb of GOD, you take away the sins of the world, grant us peace."

Thus at every Mass the faithful have a new opportunity to worship God with this one perfect sacrifice and to absorb more of Christ's saving and sanctifying grace of Calvary. This grace is infinite, and the faithful should continuously grow in it. The Mass is offered again and again, because of our imperfect capacity to receive.

Finally, the holy sacrifice of the Mass fulfills the Old Testament prophecy:

"For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts'. (Mal 1:11). The Sacrifice of the Mass is offered every day throughout the world, and in every Mass the only truly clean oblation is offered, that is, Christ Himself; thus the Mass is the perfect fulfillment of this prophecy.

Prefigurements of the sacrifice of the Mass:
Gen 14:18,22:9-14, Ex 16:4,13-36, Num 11:6-9, Deut 8:3-16, Josh 5:12,
Neh 9:15-20, Wis 16:20, Psa 78:24,105:40, Isa 55:10, Dan 12:11, Mal 1:11, John Chapt 6, Heb 9:4, Rev 2:17

The Mass:
Mt 26:26-28, Lk 22:19, Acts 2:42,20:7, 1Cor 10:16,11:17-34,
Heb Chapt 7-10, 1Pet 2:5, Rev 8:1-5

His Sacrifice was once for all:
Heb 9:22-28,10:10-14

What do the Church Fathers have to say about the Mass?

The Didache, or teaching of the Apostles, 70 A.D. 14:1,
"But on the Lord's Day, after that you have assembled together,
break bread and give thanks, having in addition confessed your sins,
that your sacrifice may be pure."

St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 180 A.D. 4:17:5,

He taught the new sacrifice of the New Covenant, of which Malachi,
one of the twelve prophets, had signified beforehand, "...For from the rising
of the sun to its setting, My name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in
every place incense is offered to My name, and a pure sacrifice;

St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 180 A.D. 4:18:2,

Sacrifice as such has not been reprobated. There were sacrifices
then, sacrifices among the people; and there are sacrifices now, sacrifices
in the Church. Only the kind has been changed; for now the sacrifice is
offered not by slaves but by free men.

St. Cyprian of Carthage, Letter to Cecil, 253 A.D.63:4,

Also in the priest Melchisedech we see the Sacrament of the
Sacrifice of the Lord prefigured, in accord with that to which the Divine Scriptures testify, where it says; "And Melchisedech, the King of Salem, brought out bread and wine, for he was a priest of the most high
GOD (Gen 14:18)."

St. Ambrose of Milan, Commentaries on David's Psalms, 381 A.D. 38:25,

We saw the Prince of Priests coming to us, we saw and heard Him
offering His blood for us. We follow, inasmuch as we are able, being
priests; and we offer the sacrifice on behalf of the people. And even if we
are of but little merit, still, in the sacrifice, we are honorable. For even if
Christ is not now seen as the one who offers the sacrifice, nevertheless it
is He Himself that is offered in sacrifice here on earth when the Body of
Christ is offered. Indeed, to offer Himself He is made visible in us, He
whose word makes holy the sacrifice that is offered.

St. Gregory of Nazianz, Letter to Amphilochius, 383 A.D.171,

Cease not to pray and plead for me when you draw down the Word
by your word, when in an unbloody cutting you cut the Body and Blood
of the Lord, using your voice for a sword.

St. John Chrysostom, The Priesthood, 386 A.D. 3:4:177,

When you see the Lord immolated and lying upon the altar, and
the priest bent over that sacrifice praying, and all the people empurpled by
that precious blood, can you think that you are still among men on earth?
Or are you not lifted up to heaven?

St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle to the Romans, 391 A.D.8:8,

Reverence, therefore, reverence this table, of which we are all
communicants! Christ, slain for us, the Sacrificial Victim who is placed thereon.

St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on the first Epistle to Corinthians, 392 A.D. 24:1:3,

He says, "Do not redden the platform of idols with the slaughter
of dumb beasts, but My altar of sacrifice with My Blood." What is more
awesome than this? What, pray tell, more tenderly loving?

St. Augustine of Hippo, Letter to Boniface, 408 A.D. 98:9,

Just as the Sacrament of the Body of Christ, therefore, is in a certain
way the Body of Christ, and the Sacrament of the Blood of Christ is the
Blood of Christ, so too the Sacrament of faith is faith. To believe, however,
is nothing other than to have faith.

St. Augustine of Hippo, The City of GOD, 420 A.D. 10:20,

Christ is both the priest offering Himself, and Himself the victim.
He willed that the sacramental sign of this should be the daily sacrifice
of the Church..

St. Gregory I, Dialogues, 593 A.D.4:60,

He is now risen from the dead and dies no more, and death will no
more have dominion over Him, for He lives immortally and incorruptibly
in Himself, is immolated for us again in this mystery of the sacred oblation.
For His body is eaten there, His flesh is distributed among the people unto salvation, His blood is poured out, no longer in the hands of the faithless but in the mouth of the faithful. Let us take thought, therefore, of what this sacrifice means for us, which is in constant representation of the suffering of the only begotten Son, for the sake of our forgiveness.
 

kai

ragamuffin
they pray to mary to intercede tha same as praying to a saint , to intercede on your behalf with god
 

sallieran

Member
INTRO
I enter this chat respectfully. I was raised and practice as a Baptist and now am graduating from a Catholic University. I believe that I may be able to shed some light on both sides of the topic- translate somewhat.

WHY PRAY TO MARY
When I entered college, I asked some of my Catholic friends to expain why Catholics appear to pray to Mary and the Catholic Saints. For the most part the response was the same as on this board- that Mary has some sway with Jesus and may be able to convince him to answer our prayers in the way that we would hope. Who could tell their mother "no?" Also, I was told that as a child, God is almost an intimidating figure- Holy - Perfect - and so high above us (perhaps percieved as such even more so in a Catholic Church), however, Mary is nurturing and more approachable.

BAPTIST PERSPECTIVE
As a Baptist, I have to clarify that we have an enormous respect for Mary. However, she was only human, fallible, limited by humanity in all forms. I asked the same question "How can Mary hear you if she is dead?"

Abdon, you did a great job coming through with scruipture on this point. However, when I looked up the verses you used, but with my background, my perception of them was very different from yours. Everything I saw leads me to believe that Jesus (who is God) was speaking with the dead, or angels were speaking/hearing, or in the case of John, he was IN heaven, OR it was at the resurrection.

ANGELS
I am not sure how Catholics percieve Angels, but Baptists believe that they are not humans that have died. They are a different creation of God, a different creature. They are not limited by humanity.

SAINTS
As for the reference of "Saints" I was always taught that as believers, we are all saints of God. This does not give any authority over any other human in hearing or speaking beyond the grave.

Speaking to the Dead
So it comes to speaking with the dead. I was asked by a Catholic friend "Haven't you ever tried to speak with one of your loved ones after they had died?" This is a funny question to me. I anwswed, that I did not believe that the dead coud hear my prayers, but that after my grandmother had died, I once said a prayer to God asking him to tell her that I loved her and missed her, almost the reverse order of a Catholic asking intercession from Mary.

Just to clarify- At worst, (from a Baptist perspective) I would believe that a Catholic praying to Mary may be misguided, but that God still does listen to their prayers with equal consideration to the man who prays directly to God because God can see into the hearts of all men and knows their intentions. But I cencede that I too am fallible, and that I could believe I got this one wrong when it comes down to it and we are all called HOME, but if I pray to God instead of going through Mary, either way, I'm sure that it still gets to the right ears.

Tell me if you think I have the Catholic perspective right on this one.
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
The bible tells me we have one mediator between the Father and us and that is Jesus Christ.........I can go to my Heavenly Father anytime thanks to Jesus. It's like a child crawling up on daddy's lap. I like praising my way to God, because the bible says that God inhabits the praises of His people.......I have always been able to make my petition known and know that however He choses to answer, it will be the right answer.

Thank God in an emergency, I don't have to call out To Abraham, Issac, John, or Mary and wait for them to get God's attention for me....

Why do Catholics's pray to Mary.....I have read the posts, but it is beyond me
Mat 12:46-50
While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without desiring to speak with him
Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without,(outside)desiring to speak with thee.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosovever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
This was not meant to reject his family but emphasized the higher priority of his spiritual relationship to his believers.

I have read that Jesus said "Pray the Father" but never saw where he said pray to Mary.......

Also in the scripture the Catholics use for the basis of Mary being of importance
Marriage in Cana
John 3
3And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him They have no wine..... (was not in the form of a request just a statement)
4 Jesus saith unto her, WOMAN, What have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come........
Up to each one for their own interpretation.......:shrug:

No disrespect intended, my grandmother was a Catholic, but I can't see anything to substantiate this theory.
 
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