Why Do Some Doubt The Deity of Christ?

iris89 · Feb 23, 2005

Hi Painted Wolf

FIRST, "Creation wonderful things of God" was NOT intended to deal with the deity of Christ. Go to:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/391186

SECOND, Your comment,

Discorse on Salvation: Salvation is not a part of my faith, God has never threatened my people with hell, we all reach the end when we have earned it. Again it uses only the bible as its source. Thus as I have expressed doubts as to the validity of the bible over my faith I can not accept that the sole source for this article is nessisarily correct. Again it really doesn't answer the question of the devinity of Christ anyway. So it also must go into the non-relevent area.

No true Christian has EVER threatened your people or any other with hell, that is only a pseudo-weapon used by counterfeit Christians as a threat against others; but NEVER by true Christians. You need to learn the facts, go to:

TRUE CHRISTIANS VS COUNTERFEIT CHRISTIANS:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/390021

THIRD, Your statement,

standards are promulgated but not proven: This basicly only explains that the bible is a standard simply because people choose it to be. That it can not, nor should it, be proven.

First, The Bible has been backed up by:

(1) Archaeological findings and one place and event after another has been proven

(2) Contemporary historians such as Favious Josephus and others have backed up things said in the Bible.

(3) Writings by 1 st. century Christians have backed it up.

(4) 2 Timothy 3:16 says, "Every scripture inspired of God [is] also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness." (American Standard Version; ASV).

{b]With respect faith, go to:[/b]

FAITH

http://www.network54.com/Forum/391113

FOURTH, Your statement,

Civilization and the Bible: Basically this just points out that Archeological evidence point to some of the stories in the bible being based on real events and places. Archeological evidence also proves that the history and stories of my faith are also based on real events and places. Thus this point is moot. The fact that Babalyon existed does not 'prove' the tale of the tower of babel happined

My civilizations were just as large and powerful as yours, our cultures just as rich, this article does nothing to prove the truth of the bible.

First, is out of place as you have no idea what culture/civilization I belong to. No one should be bashing other cultures/civilizations as all have their good and their bad individuals, both yours and mine.

Second, Evidence, archeological, for many of the events has been found.

Third, All individuals are equal in God's (YHWH's) sight, only their course of action sets them apart. Obviously you are not knowledgable of Jesus' (Yeshua's) parable at Matthew 13:24-30, " Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man that sowed good seed in his field: 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away. 26 But when the blade sprang up and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 And the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it tares? 28 And he said unto them, An enemy hath done this. And the servants say unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he saith, Nay; lest haply while ye gather up the tares, ye root up the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn." (ASV). Clearly shows that the true and counterfeit Christians will be there until the end times climax.

FIFTH, Details on Bible canon is relevant with your gaining a better understanding of the Bible!

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Faust · Feb 23, 2005

Melody said:
I'm no expert but it appears that Iris is giving plenty of sources, but other than attacks, I have not seen one reason why her sources are being disputed other than vague slurs on them. For those of us looking to be enlightened, please choose one of her arguments/sources and explain why you disagree...otherwise it just looks like more Christian bashing.

Dear Melody,
Please check my previous posts in this thread.
I am giving my answer to the question posed and I'm using the Bible as a source.
I do not feel that may be considered as Christian bashing. I am working within the parameters of this forum and civil debate.
I have yet to receive a satisfactory reply,except you Linwood, and yes in the context that you are speaking you have a point, but I still believe that in the context of the majority of Christian belief my assertions are a lot more important than they may at first seem.
Faust.

iris89 · Feb 23, 2005

Hi painted wolf

I never said Jesus (Yeshua) was the only son of God (YHWH), I said he was the only begotten son of God (YHWH). The first of creation, check out Colossians 1:15, "who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;" (American Standard Version; ASV). Very big difference.

Go read,

Jesus the Individual

http://www.network54.com/Forum/391186

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

iris89 · Feb 23, 2005

Hi Everyone

Due to being one individual, I can not answer everyone's post.

Those just saying nonsense things like the Bible is a myth are obviously not worth answering as their claim is only an unfounded opinion or myth.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Master Vigil · Feb 23, 2005

"Those just saying nonsense things like the Bible is a myth are obviously not worth answering as their claim is only an unfounded opinion or myth."

And those saying nonsense things like, the bible is truth are obviously not worth answering as their claim is only an unfounded opinion or myth. I am no longer going to waste my time in this thread. Have fun quoting your poorly researched links.

I'll tell you what. You give me 10 sources where your "research" is backed that were indeed written by your "sources" and not you. And perhaps I'll give them a look. If you can just post links to your other network54 board, I will not even bother.

Sunstone · Feb 23, 2005

iris89 said:
Those just saying nonsense things like the Bible is a myth are obviously not worth answering as their claim is only an unfounded opinion or myth.

How do you distinguish what you said from just another "unfounded opinion or myth"? On what basis do you believe that at least parts of the bible are not myth? Do you take it on faith that the bible is not myth?

Feathers in Hair · Feb 23, 2005

iris89 said:
No one should be bashing other cultures/civilizations

You mean like calling others religious texts 'bizzare'? I quite agree.

painted wolf · Feb 24, 2005

Iris said:
No true Christian has EVER threatened your people or any other with hell, that is only a pseudo-weapon used by counterfeit Christians as a threat against others; but NEVER by true Christians. You need to learn the facts, go to:

from a Discource on Salvation:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:7-15 AV)

and

" Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:33 AV)

Sounds like a threat of burning in hell to me.

iris said:
First, The Bible has been backed up by:

1) Archeological evidence also backs my standard.
2) contemproary historians like Miguel LeonPortill and Fray Bernardino de Sahagun also have backed up things written of in Aztec and Mayan codexes.
3) writings by 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th and 20th century writers have backed them up.

4) a bible quote to support the validity of the bible is circular. I won't bother using the same argument for my standard.

iris said:
First, is out of place as you have no idea what culture/civilization I belong to. No one should be bashing other cultures/civilizations as all have their good and their bad individuals, both yours and mine.

I was referning to your repeated mentioning of Archeological evidence backing up the bible and its ties to Western Civilization. I'm not bashing anyones culture/civilization. I was pointing out that all are equil both in good and bad. I'm glad on this we can agree.:jiggy:

Second, the same evidence exists for my religion.

Third, my faith also says that all individuals are equil in gods sight. We do not have Salvation because man in our faith never fell, we have nothing to be saved from.

Fourth, was there a fourth

Fifth, the details on bible cannon only tell me that man has messed with the bible previously. And that you don't agree with non-cannon books of the bible.

Ok, my bad, the only 'begoten' son of god. I ammend my previous statement to:
I do not know that he is the real 'only begotten son' of god.

wa:do

iris89 · Feb 24, 2005

Hi Everyone

Everything I write is a backed by evidence in the form of quotes from the Bible with exact translation and verse always given, in fact 90% of my research products are written Sola Scriptura that is the use of over 50% direct quotes from the standard, the Bible is the Standard; the remainder of the quotes and paraphrases are from dictionaries, encyclopedias, renown newspapers, history books, etc. I write NOT my opinion, but what I uncover as an independent researcher and put the facts and not my opinions into my research products as would any honest independent researcher.

I am not beholden to any creed. I follow the Bible all the way, not halfway, the Bible is entirely consistent both NT & OT and practical for our day. For details, go to:

STANDARDS ARE PROMULGATED NOT PROVEN BUT USED:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=388559&messageid=1108382158&lp=1108382158

and,

Civilization & the Bible

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=388559&messageid=1108382063&lp=1108382063

Also, non-canonical books are NOT part of Gods (YHWHs) inspired word, hence not a legitimate part of the Bible. That is why they are called Apocrypha. For details, go to:

Discourse on a Lost Book of the Bible:

http://p197.ezboard.com/fabnafrm10.showMessage?topicID=123.topic

With respect to Hell, it is NOT a place of burning torment and true Christians do not threaten individuals with it. In all of my writings you will NEVER find me writing threats of Hell. For information, go to:

Information on Hell

http://www.network54.com/Forum/391202

Also, I am NOT going to be dragged into any debate by those individuals making nonsense false statements. I believe in assisting all with respect to increasing knowledge, but NOT into debating and arguing which are a waste of time.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Feathers in Hair · Feb 24, 2005

iris89 said:
I write NOT my opinion, but what I uncover as an independent researcher and put the facts and not my opinions into my research products as would any honest independent researcher.

Hello again, dear Iris! I've said here that I very rarely take something on as an issue to emotionally invest myself in. However, this is one of them. I believe I used the phrase 'incandescent' to describe it to NetDoc, who has probably, like those wiser than I, realized that this thread is futile.

How, in all the heavens, can you say that you are not writing your opinions?! You called an absolutely valid question from one of the many people here who I consider a friend 'dumb'. You then went on to say that specific religious texts were 'bizzare'. I would agree with Koresh's being so, but why then go on to then list the Qu'ran and the "Book of Wiccam'? ( And how does an independent researcher come up with a 'fact' that is aimed at a book that doesn't even exist, since Wicca and paganism have no central text?)

So I ask you again, how can you expect anyone to believe that you are unbiased and an independent researcher when you do these things?

iris89 · Feb 24, 2005

Hi FeathersinHair

FIRST, My post are mostly written 'Sola Scriptura' so they express not my opinions, but the thoughts and feelings of God (YHWH) as put into the words of men by faithful men he inspired to act as his scribes. all I do is bring out the facts and make the thoughts and feelings of God (YHWH) clear to all who want to learn.

The salient fact being that highlighting facts from a standard is highlighting fact not an opinion. As the United States Environmental Protection Agency said with respect to definition of a standard,

1) Something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison. 2) An object regarded as the most common size or form of its kind. 3) A rule or principle that is used as a basis for judgment. 4) An average or normal quality, quantity, or level. (Source: European Environment Agency (EEA), European Topic Centre on Catalogue of Data Sources (ETC/CDS): General Multilingual Environmental Thesaurus Term Detail) [source - US Environmental Protection Agency, Terminology Reference System]
Thus, detailing features of a standard can in no way be considered an opinion, and that is what I have been doing which is what one would expect from an intellectually honest independent researcher. However, most of what is posted on this thread by others is opinionsuch as your post as it references to no standard or recognized text.

SECOND, A 'dumb' question is dumb no matter who asks it. A question that is not understandable by the one who it is directed to is dumb per se. And any irrelevant question or remark about the only begotten Son of God is just foolishness.

THIRD, I call religious text what they are. I do not play logomachy and/or beat around the bush.

FOURTH, With respect to the Wiccim, there are several books, one of which plagiarized from portions of the Bible, and that is the one I am referring to. However, you clearly missed the point of my post while trying to find things to critizise, you should start reading for information instead of trying to find small items to 'pick at.'

FIFTH, I have no creed. I follow the Bible as the Standard all the way, not halfway. The Bible is an entirely consistent standard - both the NT & Ot - and practical standard for our day.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Pah · Feb 24, 2005

I think it time for the "independent" researcher to be ignored for biased, biblical, bickering instead of biblical scholarship

Feathers in Hair · Feb 24, 2005

iris89 said:
However, most of what is posted on this thread by others is opinionsuch as your post as it references to no standard or recognized text.

I cannot speak for the others, but naturally my post is opinion, since you do not seem to deem any other text as 'recognized' unless you say it is recognized. I am not trying to debate about the diety of Christ, as I do not feel that is my business, it not being central to my religion. I will take issue with being unkind to others, however, and I believe there are some standards of that that are recognized by most of the forum.

iris89 said:
SECOND, A 'dumb' question is dumb no matter who asks it. A question that is not understandable by the one who it is directed to is dumb per se. And any irrelevant question or remark about the only begotten Son of God is just foolishness.

Again, it seems that in your opinion, anything you judge to be irrelevant is as such. "A question that is not understandable by the one who it is directed to..." So pretty much anyone who hasn't understood a question is dumb?

iris89 said:
THIRD, I call religious text what they are. I do not play logomachy and/or beat around the bush.

It's such a sad thing that I consider calling the religious texts of others bizzare logomachy. I really must work on that.

iris89 said:
FOURTH, With respect to the Wiccim, there are several books, one of which plagiarized from portions of the Bible, and that is the one I am referring to.

Witch (haha) one?

iris89 said:
However, you clearly missed the point of my post while trying to find things to critizise, you should start reading for information instead of trying to find small items to 'pick at.'

Actually, that worked out nicely, didn't it, because it seems that I was not the only one to miss the point of a post. You might be want to look into reading for information, as well, since all I was actually asking of you was to be considerate of other people.

iris89 · Feb 24, 2005

Hi Everyone

FIRST, I am not bickering or debating with anyone, but posting research products that are fully backed with evidence and references. Something I have not seen in any of the recent post by others.

SECOND, It seems many want to argue with me or debate with me personally, instead of learning from my research products; this is deplorable.

THIRD, Some post things like,

It's such a sad thing that I consider calling the religious texts of others bizzare logomachy.

Which I have no idea what they are referring to.

FOURTH, As I said previously,

My post are mostly written 'Sola Scriptura' so they express not my opinions, but the thoughts and feelings of God (YHWH) as put into the words of men by faithful men he inspired to act as his scribes. all I do is bring out the facts and make the thoughts and feelings of God (YHWH) clear to all who want to learn.

The salient fact being that highlighting facts from a standard is highlighting fact not an opinion. As the United States Environmental Protection Agency said with respect to definition of a standard,

1) Something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison. 2) An object regarded as the most common size or form of its kind. 3) A rule or principle that is used as a basis for judgment. 4) An average or normal quality, quantity, or level. (Source: European Environment Agency (EEA), European Topic Centre on Catalogue of Data Sources (ETC/CDS): General Multilingual Environmental Thesaurus Term Detail) [source - US Environmental Protection Agency, Terminology Reference System]

Click to expand...

Thus, detailing features of a standard can in no way be considered an opinion, and that is what I have been doing which is what one would expect from an intellectually honest independent researcher. However, most of what is posted on this thread by others is opinionsuch as your post as it references to no standard or recognized text.

Which no one addressed. Issues and facts should be addressed not personalities.

FIFTH, One poster said,

Again, it seems that in your opinion, anything you judge to be irrelevant is as such. "A question that is not understandable by the one who it is directed to..." So pretty much anyone who hasn't understood a question is dumb?

Click to expand...

On that one I remember the question and I submitted it to 7 theologians [all but one with a PhD. ] and they all agreed with me, and they are experts in the field of religion.

SIXTH, It is hightime that all try and learn instead of trying to give me a hard time with anti-Christian nonsense such as who is Christ as any resident of North America or Europe should know this.

Even Muslims are aware of this if they read their Quran as it says, Sura 3:47,

Sura 3:47, She said, "My Lord, how can I have a son, when no man has touched me?" He said, "GOD thus creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He simply says to it, `Be,' and it is.

And, Sura 3:48 says, "He will teach him the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel." Interestingly here the Quran (Koran) actually speaks of the first five (5) books of the Bible, the Torah; yet today many Muslims rail against the Bible from which their book the Quran (Koran) was plagiarized from.

Now the Bible says at Luke 1:35, And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God. (American Standard Version; ASV).

And the great Hindu leader, mahatma gandhi, knew who Christ was, and here are some of the things he said on Christianity with references to his various works:

Christ-Christianity

Jesus was the most active resister known perhaps to history. His was
non-violence par excellence. [clearly recognizing his as the Prince of peace per Isaiah 9:6-7]

MGCG-301

Once Jesus had blazed the trail, his twelve disciples could carry on
his mission without presence.

MM-133

Jesus never uttered a loftier or a grander truth than when he said that
wisdom cometh out of the mouths of babes.

MM-421

Jesus, to me, is a great world teacher among others.

T-4-75

The message of Jesus has proved ineffective because the
environment was unready to receive it.

T-2-237

Christianity in India is mextricably mixed up for the last hundred and
fifty years with the British rule.

T-2-341

It is a first class human tragedy that people of the earth who claim to
believe in the message of Jesus, whom they describe as the Prince of
Peace, show little of that belief in actual practice. [he met up with wrong type of Christians]

TIG-145

Do not flatter yourselves with the belief that a mere recital of that
celebrated verse in St. John makes a man a Christian.

TIG-68

If I had to face ONLY the Sermon on the Mount and my own
interpretation of it, I should not hesitate to say, O yes, I am a
Christian.

Obviously he had met up with many of the wrong type of Christians, for more details on that, go to:

TRUE CHRISTIANS VS COUNTERFEIT CHRISTIANS:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/390021

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Melody · Feb 24, 2005

iris89 said:
FOURTH, With respect to the Wiccim, there are several books, one of which plagiarized from portions of the Bible, and that is the one I am referring to. However, you clearly missed the point of my post while trying to find things to critizise, you should start reading for information instead of trying to find small items to 'pick at.'

Just to clarify, as Feathers has already stated, Wicca has no official text. I'm sure you may have come across some books professing to be the "bible" for Wiccans, but that's only in someone's mind.

iris89 · Feb 24, 2005

Hi Melody

Your Statement,

Just to clarify, as Feathers has already stated, Wicca has no official text. I'm sure you may have come across some books professing to be the "bible" for Wiccans, but that's only in someone's mind.

The book I saw and read the first chapter was one in a book shop for used books just north of the loop in Chicago several years ago. I have no idea whether it is an official one or not, but that has really nothing to do with the central theme of what I posted which was about the Bible and how it is the word of God (YHWH) that he was the author of and used faithful men under divine inspiration to put his thoughts into the words of men.

Now I have a question, why did you not think about the main theme, but instead concentrate on a trivial? In my way of thinking, this is like worrying about a black mark on a tire after your car has just been totaled in an accident.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

linwood · Feb 24, 2005

I have no idea whether it is an official one or not, but that has really nothing to do with the central theme of what I posted...

It does however give great insight into your "research" methods.

iris89 · Feb 24, 2005

Hi Linwood

So you are one who can not concentrate on important main points and weighty matters, but concerns himself with trivial items of no importance which of course are not worthy of investigation since they are nothing but so whats. Why do you seem to lack the ability of being able to differiantiate the important from the totally unimportant. Research products concentrate, or at least should, on weighty items; not trivial on which some have differences of opinions.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Melody · Feb 24, 2005

iris89 said:
Now I have a question, why did you not think about the main theme, but instead concentrate on a trivial? In my way of thinking, this is like worrying about a black mark on a tire after your car has just been totaled in an accident.

Iris,

I'm not "concentrating" on the trivial. I'm actively refusing to join this debate as I do not feel I am knowledgeable enough to participate. However, I felt you might like to update your own knowledge base about another belief system.

Forgive me if I erred in my thinking.

Feathers in Hair · Feb 24, 2005

(I have edited this post to get rid of some HTML that must have accidently gotten tacked on, a possible reason for confusion over something (including an apology) and a farewell. Anything that has been added is in blue, and I have not subtracted anything besides the HTML.)

(This first part is simply to explain what I was saying for any 'casual onlookers.

THIRD, Some post things like,

It's such a sad thing that I consider calling the religious texts of others bizzare logomachy.

Click to expand...

Which I have no idea what they are referring to.

I was referring to my reaction at a someone who says that they don't engage in logomachy when they have stated a subjective opinion on the religious texts of others. Nothing more complicated than that. I realized, after reading it again, that I should have added parentheses around 'bizzare', in order to clarify that I was that it was not my own term I was using. I do apologize for that, as it was not my intent to be unclear.)

Just one thought before I give up on trying to explain why is important to be nice to other people and how 'dumb' and 'bizzare' are opinons-

Now I have a question, why did you not think about the main theme, but instead concentrate on a trivial? In my way of thinking, this is like worrying about a black mark on a tire after your car has just been totaled in an accident.

I'd say that if seven or more people (which is also, apparently, the number of theologians that are required to decide whether something is 'dumb' or not) are pointing to that black mark and asking you about it, it might be the reason for the accident.

I certainly get the impression that you are probably a kind person that I would normally love to chat with. However, as I've noted with some other threads, I will no longer be inviting your current negativity into my spirit. I wish you the best in all things, and hope you find peace and happiness.

Why Do Some Doubt The Deity of Christ?

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