what do you feel is wrong with homosexuality?

sojourner · Jan 24, 2008

I do think that homosexuality is a sin against the commandments of God, not because the individual is inherently evil or anything like that, but only because it denies God a positive response to His invitation to become like Him. That may bother you or it may not, it is an individual’s right to choose, but it is still understood as a fact by the vast majority of those who have made it their life’s goal to know God.

Interesting. How does it deny God a positive response to God's invitation to become like God?
I'd like to see some statistics on just how many of us understand your stance as "fact." I think the winds are shifting dramatically here.

Personally I try not to judge people, homosexual or not, but I do become concerned when anything I believe to be a social ill (it is my right to believe that) becomes so wide spread that it begins to confuse rising generations with regard to the commandments of God, blurring the lines between right and wrong to the point where they are not distinguishable and sometimes even reversed.

Not all believe as you do. What about the social ill of stigmatizing individuals and groups to the point of being ostracized? Perhaps we need to address this social ill first.

Setting the commandments of God at naught is good for nobody and reversing the labels between right and wrong is deadly to society.

How are you so sure that homosexual condemnation is a "commandment of God?" How are you so sure what's "right" and what's "wrong?" Is is "right" or "wrong" to pass legislation outlawing abortion? What about women who are against a wall, or whose codes and morals are not the same as yours? Would you rather that they use a rusty coat hanger? Because they will. Maybe what's "right" and what's "wrong" aren't so simply black-and-white as you'd like them to be.

roli · Jan 24, 2008

sojourner said:
sojourner said:

Don't purport to question and judge my faith and my spiritual standing. It's very bad form. :redcard:

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Did I judge, no, I responded to quantify your title as a Christian, that if you can't see in scripture where God condemns sin,all sin,than maybe you need to examine what it is you beleive regarding Christianity.
Don't be nasty here, this is a forum that people question things said all the time and than challenge it, that's what I was intending to do.
The question stands, what do you believe God speaks of concering sin and punishment for it.
You honestly can't find out where he speaks of homosexuality, I;m sure you've been down this road before and know the scriptures that have been brought to light concerning the subject, your certainly quite passionate about something concerning this subject.
What,.... you want me to do it over again so you can say, God never actaully said it himself. If that is the case than.... and I'm not assuming it is, most of the bible should be discounted because it was written by men as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, but the question is, by the sounds of it, you don't beleive that men wrote on behalf of God through his Spirit

Roli said: If you are christian as your title indicates and you don't see where God speaks of sin then maybe you need to: EXAMINE your faith,as we all have to do now and agin

This is the kind of self-righteous garbage I've come to expect from some sectors of the Faith.

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What's self righteous, I'm not following you here, explain?

I issued a specific challenge to you about scripture, and instead of simply answering it (since the subject is so clearly delineated in scripture), you start making judgments about my faith. How typical.

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Please, if you want the scripture, i'll get if for you ,but if your just going to say ,that's not not technically from God ,then what's the sense.

Once again, show me the book, chapter, and verse in the Bible that is a direct quotation from God with regard to homosexuality. You can't do it, because it ain't in there. All you can show is someone who says something about homosexuality. The rest is assumption.

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And someone who says something about homosexuality in the bible is to be discounted and not from God.
This is'nt even about homosexuality ,as far as I'm concerned , it's about sin, hetro's and homosexuals alike, that is the imporatant thing.
Here we go again,back to why I questioned what it is you believe concerning Christianity, if you don't believe that Jesus,Moses, Paul, Peter were God's mouth piece and spoke on his behalf, this conversation is dead.
So feel free to believe what it is you believe ,I am not judging you, go ahead, I'm only questioning what your Christianity is based on, that's all.

Maybe I don't need to do anything of the sort you suggest. Maybe you're in no position to make such a suggestion. Maybe, instead of spouting self-righteous drivel, you could bother to actually answer the challenge I posed.

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Well ,like I said why would I point out what the Torah, gospels,Epistles say concerning fornication,homosexuality, if your just going to disqualify them.

But, then, what do I know? I'm just a reprobate, whose faith needs re-examining. I guess the process of the Commission on Ministry in my denomination was remiss in it's discernment of my spiritual well-being.

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I just quoted a scripture , I did'nt say you were anything of the sort, those are God's word, well again ,if you believe that the writer of Hebrews spoke from God
Again ,what is it you believe, is the question.
Many a sects claiming christian status send out missionaries, preachers and the like, but what makes them truth is how they appear under the light of God's word, I'll be no judge just one who points out and challenges those who oppose the word of God.

If you have a problem with that then WELL,maybe your on the wrong forum.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings ,but I'm only challenging you view on sin.
Agian this is about sin in general the specifics of what people engage in are just the natural tendencies of the sinful state of man according to God's word

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roli · Jan 24, 2008

Darkness said:
Have you ever considered that the so called "Holy Spirit" is an Adversary deceiving you? How do you know you have the right "Holy Spirit" and all the others who claim to have the Spirit are being deceived?

Well, it's not something that can be accurately conveyed in words, it's something that is best expereinced.
The Holy Spirit came to convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment.
When he does that to a believer, one begins to know what is truth and what is lie ,what is light and what is darkness, what is good and what is bad.

The Holy Spirit reveals and backs up what scripture says and does not contradict or fabricate new doctrines.
The Holy Spirit is God's presence on earth and in those who receive Christ and the truth of who God is ,his nature his attributes his moral law, his righteousness and Holiness become a part of the believer.

sojourner · Jan 24, 2008

roli said:
sojourner said:

Did I judge, no, I responded to quantify your title as a Christian, that if you can't see in scripture where God condemns sin,all sin,than maybe you need to examine what it is you beleive regarding Christianity.
Don't be nasty here, this is a forum that people question things said all the time and than challenge it, that's what I was intending to do.
The question stands, what do you believe God speaks of concering sin and punishment for it.
You honestly can't find out where he speaks of homosexuality, I;m sure you've been down this road before and know the scriptures that have been brought to light concerning the subject, your certainly quite passionate about something concerning this subject.
What,.... you want me to do it over again so you can say, God never actaully said it himself. If that is the case than.... and I'm not assuming it is, most of the bible should be discounted because it was written by men as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, but the question is, by the sounds of it, you don't beleive that men wrote on behalf of God through his Spirit

Roli said: If you are christian as your title indicates and you don't see where God speaks of sin then maybe you need to: EXAMINE your faith,as we all have to do now and agin

What's self righteous, I'm not following you here, explain?

Please, if you want the scripture, i'll get if for you ,but if your just going to say ,that's not not technically from God ,then what's the sense.

And someone who says something about homosexuality in the bible is to be discounted and not from God.
This is'nt even about homosexuality ,as far as I'm concerned , it's about sin, hetro's and homosexuals alike, that is the imporatant thing.
Here we go again,back to why I questioned what it is you believe concerning Christianity, if you don't believe that Jesus,Moses, Paul, Peter were God's mouth piece and spoke on his behalf, this conversation is dead.
So feel free to believe what it is you believe ,I am not judging you, go ahead, I'm only questioning what your Christianity is based on, that's all.

Well ,like I said why would I point out what the Torah, gospels,Epistles say concerning fornication,homosexuality, if your just going to disqualify them.

I just quoted a scripture , I did'nt say you were anything of the sort, those are God's word, well again ,if you believe that the writer of Hebrews spoke from God
Again ,what is it you believe, is the question.
Many a sects claiming christian status send out missionaries, preachers and the like, but what makes them truth is how they appear under the light of God's word, I'll be no judge just one who points out and challenges those who oppose the word of God.

If you have a problem with that then WELL,maybe your on the wrong forum.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings ,but I'm only challenging you view on sin.
Agian this is about sin in general the specifics of what people engage in are just the natural tendencies of the sinful state of man according to God's word

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You had no idea what my views on sin were. Don't hide behind the Bible. You used that passage specifically to draw my faith into question. At least be honest, huh?
It is possible to issue challenges without getting personal.

Why is it your prerogative to "point out and challenge" those who "oppose the word of God?" I'm not convinced that you have a good handle on "the word of God."

The specific issue in this thread is homosexuality. We haven't established that it is sin. Maybe you've "established" that, based upon your own understanding of "what God says." But many of us feel that it's still up for discussion. Unfortunately for you, this forum does not operate under the dynamic of "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." If you have a problem with that, perhaps you're on the wrong forum...

You said the issue was Biblically clear. I'm still waiting for you to back that opinion up, because I don't think it's so clear. I think the Biblical issue with homosexuality isn't moral, it's cultural. We don't live in that culture. Therefore, the issue should not apply to us.

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Autodidact · Jan 24, 2008

roli said:
The word of God, the same place that he speaks about every sin.
But if you don't know him or how Holy he is, you'll never see sin for what it is.
I don't thinks it's because people can't find it written on every page of the bible,it's becasue people don't want to find it there.

People don't want to confront the sin that angers God, so they make a God to suit what they want him to be and think their justified in labelling him this or that.

Let me review this. Even if it is nowhere prohibited anywhere in the Bible, roli knows it's a sin because...he just does? Hey, roli, I happen to know that quoting Bible verses on the Internet is a sin, due to being filled with the Holy Spirit and all. The only reason you don't see that, even though the Bible fails to mention it, is that you don't want to find it there. Believe me, God in His righteousness has condemned it. Better cut it out.

Autodidact · Jan 24, 2008

Evandr said:
I agree that homosexuality is not a life style; its a sexual preference. There are homosexual people in all walks of life and in all life styles.

I do think that homosexuality is a sin against the commandments of God, not because the individual is inherently evil or anything like that, but only because it denies God a positive response to His invitation to become like Him. That may bother you or it may not, it is an individuals right to choose, but it is still understood as a fact by the vast majority of those who have made it their lifes goal to know God.

Another consideration is that the whole issue has two fronts, homosexuality itself, the practice of which may or may not be within a person's ability to control (thats a whole other topic of debate), and the Choice of the individual to promote it as a social norm, which is something they can control.

Personally I try not to judge people, homosexual or not, but I do become concerned when anything I believe to be a social ill (it is my right to believe that) becomes so wide spread that it begins to confuse rising generations with regard to the commandments of God, blurring the lines between right and wrong to the point where they are not distinguishable and sometimes even reversed.

Setting the commandments of God at naught is good for nobody and reversing the labels between right and wrong is deadly to society. History has never failed to show that such an attitude spells the destruction of the society that pursues it. As the poet and philosopher George Santayana so aptly put it: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

And where again does God command women not to love each other?

Sunstone · Jan 24, 2008

So far as I know, homosexuality is not a sexual preference in the sense that a preference is a choice. Rather, it's a sexual orientation. Choice is seldom involved, if at all.

sojourner · Jan 24, 2008

Sunstone said:
So far as I know, homosexuality is not a sexual preference in the sense that a preference is a choice. Rather, it's a sexual orientation. Choice is seldom involved, if at all.

Well said!

Mike182 · Jan 24, 2008

Sunstone said:
So far as I know, homosexuality is not a sexual preference in the sense that a preference is a choice. Rather, it's a sexual orientation. Choice is seldom involved, if at all.

frubals!

Gentoo · Jan 24, 2008

Francine said:
He doesn't, but Paul calls it against nature. Then again, he calls long-haired men unnatural too.

1Cor.11:[14] Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

I wonder if that counts for Jesus too?

Evandr · Jan 24, 2008

sojourner said:
Interesting. How does it deny God a positive response to God's invitation to become like God?

Having an accepting attitude toward homosexuality would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families. It's how our Heavenly Father would have it himself, it's what we must do to become like Him.

sojourner said:
I'd like to see some statistics on just how many of us understand your stance as "fact." I think the winds are shifting dramatically here.

Statistics have nothing whatsoever to do with it, either you keep the commandments of God and seek to stand approved of Him or you do not. The sad reality is that far too many will suffer because they don't see this reality as fact. The winds may be shifting but they are blowing your sails in whoeful direction.

sojourner said:
Not all believe as you do. What about the social ill of stigmatizing individuals and groups to the point of being ostracized? Perhaps we need to address this social ill first.

That is nothing when compared to the eternal ills associated with not doing things according to the commandments of God. Do you honestly think that our Heavenly Father's stance on marriage and family are given frivolously? Do you totally reject the idea that there is good reason for the commandments, that perhaps your failure to understand them does not invalidate them, that your refusal to adhear to them will not turn away the judgments of a just God?

In short: eliminate the problem by keeping God's commandments and you eliminate the associated ills that come from failure to do so. Cure the problem and the side effects will take care of themselves.

sojourner said:
How are you so sure that homosexual condemnation is a "commandment of God?" How are you so sure what's "right" and what's "wrong?" Is is "right" or "wrong" to pass legislation outlawing abortion? What about women who are against a wall, or whose codes and morals are not the same as yours? Would you rather that they use a rusty coat hanger? Because they will. Maybe what's "right" and what's "wrong" aren't so simply black-and-white as you'd like them to be.

Lev. 20:13
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Deut. 23:17
17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

Isa. 3:9
9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

Jude 1:7
7 Even as aSodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodomy, defined as anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex or copulation with a member of the same sex, was a hallmark sin of Sodom, so much so that that is where the act got its name. We all know what happened to Sodom and Ghamora and how God viewed the "abominations" that permiated the cities.

Rom. 1:26-27
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

1 Cor. 6:9
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 Tim. 1: 10
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

As to your questions about legislation, having to deal with such difficult issues is at the core of why we have commandments in the first place or am I to understand that you nelieve that we should condone sin because we don't want living with the consequences to be difficult?

Autodidact · Jan 24, 2008

And that prohibition against lesbianism, where is that found?

ChristineES · Jan 24, 2008

Even if it is a sin, which I am not even sure of, it would be a sin committed on the person himself (no females are capable of the act of sodomy, with all due respect). But if sodomy is a sin, wouldn't it be a sin if the act was done to a woman, as well? We have to be careful whom we judge, because God will judge us the same way we judge others. That means if you judge someone harshly, you will be judged harshly by God-- If you show mercy to others, then God will show mercy to you. That is what the Bible teaches-- Jesus Himself and not Paul.
I use Jesus own teachings to defend my views:

Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Matthew 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me cast out the mote out of thine eye; and lo, the beam is in thine own eye?
Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Here is a more modern translation:

Mat 7:3 And why do you look on the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull the splinter out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye.

sojourner · Jan 24, 2008

Having an accepting attitude toward homosexuality would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families. It's how our Heavenly Father would have it himself, it's what we must do to become like Him.

Not all hetero married couples have children -- if that's your definition of "familiy." If your definition of "family" is a unit of more than one person living together, don't homosexual relationships fulfill that definition?

Not sure that the sole purpose of marriage is making babies.

Marriage is intended by God for the "mutual joy" of the couple; "for the help and comfort given one another in prosperity and adversity; and, when it is God's will, for the procreation of children and their nurture in the knowledge and love of the Lord. Therefore, marriage is not to be entered into unadvisedly or lightly, but reverently, deliberately, and in accordance with the purposes for which it was instituted by God." (1979 BCP, pg. 432)

Statistics have nothing whatsoever to do with it, either you keep the commandments of God and seek to stand approved of Him or you do not. The sad reality is that far too many will suffer because they don't see this reality as fact. The winds may be shifting but they are blowing your sails in whoeful direction.

You mean, in the direction of acceptance, hospitality, mutuality, affirmation, and love -- as opposed to judgment, condemnation, disenfranchisement, oppression, and prejudice?

Statistics are important. They show just how many of us think that condemnation of homosexuality is one of "God's commandments." Your understanding doth not make the world go 'round.

That is nothing when compared to the eternal ills associated with not doing things according to the commandments of God.

Again with the "God's commandments" thing. Just because you say it's so don't make it so. Sorry. However, Jesus does preach acceptance, hospitality, mutuality, love, affirmation, and giving oppressed people the benefit of the doubt.

Do you honestly think that our Heavenly Father's stance on marriage and family are given frivolously?

Do you honestly think that I think that? Do you honestly think that homosexual marriage is a frivolous matter?

Do you totally reject the idea that there is good reason for the commandments, that perhaps your failure to understand them does not invalidate them, that your refusal to adhear to them will not turn away the judgments of a just God?

I think the commandments were necessary in their time. I also think that Jesus fulfilled the Law. Who is misunderstanding them??? Justice is defined by unconditional love.

In short: eliminate the problem by keeping God's commandments and you eliminate the associated ills that come from failure to do so. Cure the problem and the side effects will take care of themselves.

How do you propose to do that? People are not perfect. Would you advocate just killing them who cannot perfectly keep "the commandments," or just shipping them off to quarantine somewhere?

Sodomy, defined as anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex or copulation with a member of the same sex, was a hallmark sin of Sodom, so much so that that is where the act got its name. We all know what happened to Sodom and Ghamora and how God viewed the "abominations" that permiated the cities.

In the case of what happened at Sodom, it was "battlefield rape," not an act of consensual love. In any case, since we know that the culture that produced these writings was honor/shame based, these speak to cultural norms, not moral absolutes.

As to your questions about legislation, having to deal with such difficult issues is at the core of why we have commandments in the first place or am I to understand that you nelieve that we should condone sin because we don't want living with the consequences to be difficult?

I condone choice for those for whom the commandments mean nothing. America is not a theocracy, much as you wish it were. Abortion is abominable, but people will do it, whether it is legal or not. It might as well be safe. No sense killing two...

sojourner · Jan 24, 2008

if you judge someone harshly, you will be judged harshly by God-- If you show mercy to others, then God will show mercy to you.

Apparently, Evandr missed this part of the Bible, tripping over the stuff in the OT, in his eagerness to condemn homosexuals.

Francine · Jan 24, 2008

Autodidact said:
And that prohibition against lesbianism, where is that found?

Romans 1:[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

sojourner · Jan 24, 2008

Francine said:
Romans 1:[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Funny, I didn't read "lesbian" there. This could be a diatribe against sex for pleasure, rather than procreation.

Francine · Jan 24, 2008

sojourner said:
Funny, I didn't read "lesbian" there. This could be a diatribe against sex for pleasure, rather than procreation.

Far be it from me to preach Romans 1:26, but that is the verse that is used to beat lesbians on the head. The verse that follows is very clearly about male homosexuality, so it seems the context is there.

doppelganger · Jan 24, 2008

Francine said:
Far be it from me to preach Romans 1:26, but that is the verse that is used to beat lesbians on the head. The verse that follows is very clearly about male homosexuality, so it seems the context is there.

Interestingly, the chapter breaks are not in the original letter. So people frequently don't realize that the content of that last paragraph of Romans 1 is actually a set up for the scathing argument Paul delivers in the next "chapter" of his letter.

Autodidact · Jan 24, 2008

Francine said:
Romans 1:[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Yes, Francine, that is the only mention of the subject in either testament, but it's clearly not a prohibition. It's also not clear what it refers to. For example, heterosexuality would be quite against nature--for me.

what do you feel is wrong with homosexuality?

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