Anything Goes LDS Thread (Everyone Welcome)

Sola'lor · Jan 20, 2008

kadzbiz said:
Just because Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus (as he was supposed to do by the will of God BTW) doesn't mean that he wouldn't have been a reliable source, no less reliable than others who wrote books of the bible.

Judas wasn't supposed to betray Jesus. God just knew that he would.

Katzpur · Jan 20, 2008

kadzbiz said:
Is there ANYONE that is not an LDS member who has the facts right? Really, is there?

Probably not. I'm not 100% sure of what you mean by your question, but from where I stand, the only reliable authorities on what Mormons believe are Mormons. If I wanted to learn about Judaism, why would I go to a Muslim for accurate information? As Rex Smith, former President of BYU once said, "If I want to gain an understanding of Chinese culture, I can best obtain it from someone who has not only made a thorough study of things Chinese, but, even more importantly, sees the world through Chinese eyes." See what I'm saying?

Just because Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus (as he was supposed to do by the will of God BTW) doesn't mean that he wouldn't have been a reliable source, no less reliable than others who wrote books of the bible.

Okay, well I disagree. I've never read the part of the Bible that says Judas was supposed to betray Jesus, but if you seriously believe you'd have gotten an objective view of what Jesus taught from the person who turned Him over to His murderers, you will undoubtedly see ex-Mormons as a reliable source on Mormonism, too. I guess there isn't much I can say to convince you otherwise.

Thin metal plates? The figures given per plate is 8 x 6 x 1/8 inch. Your airspace figures don't make sense. If you stacked these "plates", apart from the upper ones, the air would've been flattened out by the weight. Air wouldn't add weight in any case. The density of copper is just under half of that of gold, so how do you only get 66 pounds?

Let me get back to you with an article on the subject. I don't have any interest in debating this with you. I'll just give you some information and let you draw your own conclusions. It may be awhile. I'm kind of multi-tasking right now, and can't stop to do a search.

Katzpur · Jan 20, 2008

Okay, kadzbiz, here are a couple of articles for you to read:

Were the Golden Plates Made of Tumbaga?
Supposed Book of Mormon Anachronisms

kadzbiz · Jan 20, 2008

Katzpur said:
.... former President of BYU once said, "If I want to gain an understanding of Chinese culture, I can best obtain it from someone who has not only made a thorough study of things Chinese, but, even more importantly, sees the world through Chinese eyes." See what I'm saying? ..... you will undoubtedly see ex-Mormons as a reliable source on Mormonism, too. ......I'll just give you some information and let you draw your own conclusions. ......

I understand what you're saying, but disagree. One day a church (any church, and organisation for that matter) backs what their followers say, but the day they leave there's nothing but criticism. If a person has been a member of an organisation for decades, why shouldn't outsiders think what they say is credible? As for the tumbaga theory, thankyou. I have read the articles and have drawn my conclusion.

Scott C. · Jan 20, 2008

kadzbiz said:
Is there ANYONE that is not an LDS member who has the facts right? Really, is there?

Jan Schipps is a non-Mormon scholar who has studied and written extensively about the Mormons. I don't know a lot about her, but I believe her to be fair minded in her explanations of the LDS beliefs. I see her as an objective scholar and not as an anti-Mormon.

athanasius · Jan 20, 2008

Katzpur said:
Well, in essence that is true for us, too. You asked a ludicrous hypothetical question and I should have just given you a ludicrous hypothetical answer, instead of attempting to actually address it.

Neither have our prophets. I can think of only twice in the last hundred years or so.

Simple. As long as the prophet speaks the truth, the Holy Ghost will confirm it. The prophet has never given new revelation that the Holy Ghost has not confirmed in the minds and hearts of the members of the Church.

Paul said it best, when he spoke of the organization of Christ's Church here on Earth: "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive..." (Ephesians 4:11-14)

Without Prophets and Apostles, the Church would be left without its foundation and would be like "children... carried about with every wind of doctrine."

Hmmm I did not think the question was ludicrous considering I have head a Mormon elder make that claim before about 6 years ago. I agree with much of what you said here in regards to scripture. I am just trying to understand what a mormon does if his Prophet speaks a revelation and he(the Mormon) doesn't get a confirmation from the Holy spirit about it? I think my argument lies within the fact that I do not thin I can trust my own self or even a gut spiritual feeling when it comes to revelation. After all heretics may get the same feeling they confuse for a authentic confirmation of truth. I think he best scenario is to follow the Church that Jesus gave us and adhere to its principles and dogmas that have been pronounced because the Church is said to be the Pillar and foundation of truth(1 tim 3:15). So this is where Catholics and LDS divide. It doesnt matter if I view it to be a personal conviction from God or not I must beleive and adhere to what the Church teaches because it is Christ who speaks through the Church to teach us truth(Lk 10:16, Matt 18:15-20).

Scott C. · Jan 20, 2008

kadzbiz said:
I understand what you're saying, but disagree. One day a church (any church, and organisation for that matter) backs what their followers say, but the day they leave there's nothing but criticism. If a person has been a member of an organisation for decades, why shouldn't outsiders think what they say is credible? As for the tumbaga theory, thankyou. I have read the articles and have drawn my conclusion.

My suggestion is that if someone wants to know what the LDS believe, they should spend at least as much time reading articles written by believing LDS as they do reading articles written by non-Mormons or ex-Mormons. Doesn't that seem reasonable? For example, there is a book called "Jesus the Christ", written by James Talmage, a former LDS Apostle. It is a scholarly treatise on the life and mission of Jesus Christ, including His role before the earth was created, His mission in mortality, His atonement, ascension, the great apostasy, the restoration, the Second Coming, the Millenium, and what happens after the MIllenium. It's about 793 pages and is a good read. Of course it's not part of our canon, but I consider it to be the most authoritative comprehensive writing on who I believe Jesus to be.

Scott C. · Jan 20, 2008

athanasius said:
I am just trying to understand what a mormon does if his Prophet speaks a revelation and he(the Mormon) doesn't get a confirmation from the Holy spirit about it?

If you were alive during the days of those you consider prophets, how would you answer the same question with regards to their revelations?

Katzpur · Jan 20, 2008

kadzbiz said:
I understand what you're saying, but disagree. One day a church (any church, and organisation for that matter) backs what their followers say, but the day they leave there's nothing but criticism. If a person has been a member of an organisation for decades, why shouldn't outsiders think what they say is credible?

I'm just speaking from my own experience, but I know what my Church teaches. I know from going to church every week for well over 50 years. When I hear an ex-Mormon say "Mormons believe..." followed by some statement that is clearly not what I am hearing every Sunday, I know who's lying. You don't. Again, in my experience, far more people leave Mormonism because they were offended by someone than because of disagreements over doctrine. It's only after they leave that the interest in anti-Mormon materials develops. They leave the Church but simply cannot leave it alone.

athanasius · Jan 20, 2008

Scott C. said:
If you were alive during the days of those you consider prophets, how would you answer the same question with regards to their revelations?

I would test them by the Church teachings.

athanasius · Jan 20, 2008

Scott C. said:
If you were alive during the days of those you consider prophets, how would you answer the same question with regards to their revelations?

I would test them by the Church(Matt 18:15-20).

Katzpur · Jan 20, 2008

Scott C. said:
Jan Schipps is a non-Mormon scholar who has studied and written extensively about the Mormons. I don't know a lot about her, but I believe her to be fair minded in her explanations of the LDS beliefs. I see her as an objective scholar and not as an anti-Mormon.

I agree. Jan Schipps has always impressed me, too. I believe her to be as objective as any non-LDS scholar could possibly be.

kadzbiz · Jan 20, 2008

Scott C. said:
Jan Schipps is a non-Mormon scholar who has studied and written extensively about the Mormons. I don't know a lot about her, but I believe her to be fair minded in her explanations of the LDS beliefs. I see her as an objective scholar and not as an anti-Mormon.

Thanks for that.

Scott C. said:
My suggestion is that if someone wants to know what the LDS believe, they should spend at least as much time reading articles written by believing LDS as they do reading articles written by non-Mormons or ex-Mormons. .....

I have read a lot more by LDS members and followers than the other. It's when I read or hear of things told or written by members and followers that make me search elsewhere for things to back up the beliefs. The questions are obviously a result of the conflict that arises from the two.

Scott C. · Jan 20, 2008

athanasius said:
I would test them by the Church teachings.

So, if you were alive in the days of Noah and he warned you to get on the Ark because a flood was coming, what would you test his words against?

Katzpur · Jan 20, 2008

athanasius said:
So this is where Catholics and LDS divide. It doesnt matter if I view it to be a personal conviction from God or not I must beleive and adhere to what the Church teaches because it is Christ who speaks through the Church to teach us truth(Lk 10:16, Matt 18:15-20).

Yes, I guess that's the difference between us. We believe that each of us has the God-given right to the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost. On the other hand, I've never heard the Prophet ever say anything I would have a hard time accepting. When Jesus asked His Apostles who they believed Him to be, and Peter alone said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God," Jesus answered by telling him he was blessed because flesh and blood had not revealed the truth to him but his Father in Heaven. God speaks to us through His personally chosen prophet, but ultimately our Father in Heaven confirms the truth to us through the Holy Ghost.

Scott C. · Jan 20, 2008

kadzbiz said:
Thanks for that.

I have read a lot more by LDS members and followers than the other. It's when I read or hear of things told or written by members and followers that make me search elsewhere for things to back up the beliefs. The questions are obviously a result of the conflict that arises from the two.

I have read some stuff from ex-Mormons who accurately describe what I believe and just say that for one reason or another they stopped believing and left the Church. Most vocal ex-Mormons, though, distort things. It's hard for me to tell if they are distorting on purpose or if they honestly see it in a way that I see as distorted. If they honestly see it that way, maybe that explains why they left.

Katzpur · Jan 20, 2008

Scott C. said:
So, if you were alive in the days of Noah and he warned you to get on the Ark because a flood was coming, what would you test his words against?

I suspect he would have drowned. After all, Rome hadn't yet confirmed the weather report.

kadzbiz · Jan 20, 2008

Scott C. said:
I have read some stuff from ex-Mormons who accurately describe what I believe and just say that for one reason or another they stopped believing and left the Church. Most vocal ex-Mormons, though, distort things. It's hard for me to tell if they are distorting on purpose or if they honestly see it in a way that I see as distorted. If they honestly see it that way, maybe that explains why they left.

I'm fascinated to learn why long term members would stop believing - any ideas?

jonny · Jan 20, 2008

kadzbiz said:
I'm fascinated to learn why long term members would stop believing - any ideas?

Lack of faith.

athanasius · Jan 20, 2008

Katzpur said:
I suspect he would have drowned. After all, Rome hadn't yet confirmed the weather report.

One could have tested it against the old testemant church.

Anything Goes LDS Thread (Everyone Welcome)

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