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Was Satan really an angel?

Francine

Francine

Well-Known Member
If the devil aka Satan aka Lucifer was an angel, where is this actually stated in the bible?
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
If Lucifer was not an angel, what do you believe he was?

Revelation 12:9 says, "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

And Isaiah 14:12 says, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Granted, Revelation does not refer to Lucifer by name. Only Isaiah does that. But it appears that these two scriptures are speaking about the same individual. Revelation does not specifically refer to him as an angel, either. On the other hand, Revelation 12:7 does refers to Michael (whom we know to be the archangel) as fighting with his angels against the dragon and his angels. Also "Son of the Morning" does imply that Lucifer was a being of pretty high standing. So again, if he was not an angel, what was he?
 
Reverend Rick

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
It does say Lucifer fell from Heaven which would lead us to believe that Satan was an angel but does not actually say Satan fell from heaven. In JOB 1-2, God asks Satan where he came from while he was among him and the angels
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Reverend Rick said:
It does say Lucifer fell from Heaven which would lead us to believe that Satan was an angel but does not actually say Satan fell from heaven.
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Revelation does. As I already stated, Revelation 12:9 says, "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
 
Francine

Francine

Well-Known Member
Reverend Rick said:
It does not say exactly he was an angel in the bible.
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This is interesting to me because I observe that Satan has been turned into nearly a god by a pervasive form of neo-Gnosticism combined with ideas from Zoroastrianism. The whole panoply of salvation becomes a cosmic game of Texas Hold'em between the big god and the little god, with the souls of human beings as chips.
 
Reverend Rick

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
The quran calls him a fallen angel which is a Jinn (18:50)
2:34
7:11
15:29
17:61
18:50
20:116
38:71

But now I am off topic because the OP said Bible.
 
Azakel

Azakel

Liebe ist für alle da
Reverend Rick said:
Ezekiel 28:12 calls him a cherub.
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I thought he was also an ArchAngel(though I've seen were Angel are classed as more then one type). But the way I see it(because I'm not Christian) is that Satan is an Angel, reason I say that he would be is because Satan is not a name but a title for the Angel that test the believe of the Christian God(once known as Ha-Satan):

Judaism:

In Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan (שָׂטָן) means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge).

In the book of Job (Iyov), ha-satan is the title, not the proper name, of an angel submitted to God; he is the divine court's chief prosecutor. In Judaism ha-satan does not make evil, rather points out to God the evil inclinations and actions of humankind. In essence ha-satan has no power unless humans do evil things. After God points out Job's piety, ha-satan asks for permission to test the faith of Job. The righteous man is afflicted with loss of family, property, and later, health, but he still stays faithful to God. At the conclusion of this book God appears as a whirlwind, explaining to all that divine justice is inscrutable. In the epilogue Job's possessions are restored and he has a second family to "replace" the one that died.

In the Torah, ha-satan is mentioned several times. The main time is during the incident of the golden calf. As the source of people's evil inclination, or yetser harah, he is responsible for the Israelites building the golden calf while Moses was on Mount Sinai receiving the Torah from God. In the book of Chronicles, ha-satan incites David to an unlawful census.

In fact, the Book of Isaiah, Job, Ecclesiastes, and Deuteronomy all have passages in which God is credited for creating both the good and the evil of this world.(from Wiki)

Question though, if Christianity came from Judaism, then way change the fact that Satan is not some evil being but the tester of Gods people?
 
gnostic

gnostic

The Lost One
I see Lucifer and Satan to be 2 different titles or 2 different persons.
Lucifer can mean anyone who rise above. The Son of Morning in the OT, was the king of Babylonia, as it was in Isaiah. This Son of Dawn can also be Jesus, as can be seen at the end of Revelation.
I see OT Satan and NT Satan to be also different. Satan of the OT is not the Devil, but God's middleman, God's black op of "dirty trick". Satan don't do anything without God's approval. God is responsible for his doing; using Satan test man's faith, but Satan is the scapegoat for anything that would look bad for God.
As to your question, Francine.
francine said:
If the devil aka Satan aka Lucifer was an angel, where is this actually stated in the bible? Well, not in the bible, as far as I can tell.
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You will find clear reference to Satan connection with angel, in the Haggada, written around the same time, Jewish scholars began writing the Talmud and Midrash (during and after the Exile in Babylon). The Haggada was finished until the 2nd century. I could only find the translation of the Haggada at the Sacred Texts (Legends of the Jews index) with the title (translated by Louis Ginzberg). You would find this in volume 1 chapter 2, under the sub-section titled THE FALL OF SATAN (in bold, Chapter II: Adam).

Here, I will copy the relevant section for you.

Legends of the Jews said:
The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels. They attempted to consume him with fire, and he would have perished, had not the protecting hand of God rested upon him, and established peace between him and the heavenly host. In particular, Satan was jealous of the first man, and his evil thoughts finally led to his fall. After Adam had been endowed with a soul, God invited all the angels to come and pay him reverence and homage. Satan, the greatest of the angels in heaven, with twelve wings, instead of six like all the others, refused to pay heed to the behest of God, saying, "Thou didst create us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now Thou dost command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which Thou didst fashion out of the dust of the ground!" God answered, "Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than thou." Satan demanded a trial of wit with Adam, and God assented thereto, saying: "I have created beasts, birds, and reptiles, I shall have them all come before thee and before Adam. If thou art able to give them names, I shall command Adam to show honor unto thee, and thou shalt rest next to the Shekinah of My glory. But if not, and Adam calls them by the names I have assigned to them, then thou wilt be subject to Adam, and he shall have a place in My garden, and cultivate it." Thus spake God, and He betook Himself to Paradise, Satan following Him. When Adam beheld God, he said to his wife, "O come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the Lord our Maker." Now Satan attempted to assign names to the animals. He failed with the first two that presented themselves, the ox and the cow. God led two others before him, the camel and the donkey, with the same result. Then God turned to Adam, and questioned him regarding the names of the same animals, framing His questions in such wise that the first letter of the first word was the same as the first letter of the name of the animal standing before him. Thus Adam divined the proper name, and Satan was forced to acknowledge the superiority of the first man. Nevertheless he broke out in wild outcries that reached the heavens, and he refused to do homage unto Adam as he had been bidden. The host of angels led by him did likewise, in spite of the urgent representations of Michael, who was the first to prostrate himself before Adam in order to show a good example to the other angels. Michael addressed Satan: "Give adoration to the image of God! But if thou doest it not, then the Lord God will break out in wrath against thee." Satan replied: "If He breaks out in wrath against me, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will be like the Most High! "At once God flung Satan and his host out of heaven, down to the earth, and from that moment dates the enmity between Satan and man.'
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So according to this, Satan was the most beautiful angels, and with more wings than any other angels. He refused to bow to Adam, and lost contest of naming, so he and his followers were thrown out of heaven.
 
Reverend Rick

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Katzpur said:
Revelation does. As I already stated, Revelation 12:9 says, "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
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Katzpur, I believe Satan was an angel, but to stick to the OP and be technical, while Revelations says he was cast out into the earth and calls him by several names, Lucifer is not one of the names on the list. It says with his angels, not he was an angel. My biggest question is, do any other angels have angels? "His angels" is revealing something different about him.
 
gnostic

gnostic

The Lost One
katzpur's quote said:
And Isaiah 14:12 says, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
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It is not convincing.

If you read the entire chapter of Isaiah 14, it is clear that this "Lucifer" refer to a prophecy of the king of Babylonia, not Satan.

I would interpret this quote from Isaiah, that the king of babylonia's empire would rise very high, but would fall just as quickly. This make far more sense then associate Lucifer with Satan.

Beside, Lucifer was never really use, in the original text. Lucifer being a Latin name for the planet Venus, the Morning Star.

Morning Star, Son of Morning, Son of Dawn or Lucifer, you would have to remember that Jesus was also called himself bright morning star in revelation .

Revelation 22:16 said:
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Click to expand...

Would Jesus, David and Israel (eg. the Star of David being the Morning Star) really associate themselves to ultimate evil, if Lucifer was really Christian Devil?
 
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