Spiritual?

Ok.
I am pretty much a nailed on fundamentalist atheist.
However.
There are times.
Like right now.
I feel 'spiritual'.

The oneness and acceptance of life, mortality, and the ease I feel, make my mind wander into the possbilities that are out there, in the almost infinite expanse of the universe.
My mind floats.
My heart slows.
And I wonder.
It's certainly a good feeling, sometimes (as now) but not always brought on by alcohol, or other, and the only word I know is 'spiritual'... Is there a better word for the likes of me maybe?

I think what you are experiencing might be called a 'childlike sense of wonder'. When you are a child and you experience things for the first time... It is like that. Life will always have a sense of wonder. I would encourage you to always chase after that wonder.

What is beyond? What is up and over? What is next?

tomspug said:

I think what you are experiencing might be called a 'childlike sense of wonder'. When you are a child and you experience things for the first time... It is like that. Life will always have a sense of wonder. I would encourage you to always chase after that wonder.

What is beyond? What is up and over? What is next?

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heh - I am 40, and have had this feeling many times, over many years. And each time I get it it strengthens my belief that a god/creator/etc certainly does not exist. So I certainly agree people should strive for this feeling as it makes me feel all the more at peace with a powerful, unknowable, god-less universe.

Strange how the same feelings led me in the opposite direction.

I love looking at the stars and find peace. Perhaps I experience the same feelings as you. The conclusion it brings me to is that no man could ever define or understand what seems to be unknowable and unending. That is what God is to me.

Maybe you're having an entirely new realisation...

tomspug said:

The conclusion it brings me to is that no man could ever define or understand what seems to be unknowable and unending. That is what God is to me.

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God is only unknowable because there is no ending to the knowing of him.

frg001 said:

heh - I am 40, and have had this feeling many times, over many years. And each time I get it it strengthens my belief that a god/creator/etc certainly does not exist. So I certainly agree people should strive for this feeling as it makes me feel all the more at peace with a powerful, unknowable, god-less universe.

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It sounds to me that you're not a "hard atheist" in spite of what you say: that is, you strive to have a relationship with you know not what. Your religion is called "pantheism" which, like Tomspug suggested, is a childlike sense of wonder without the benefit of adult thinking. That is, it's sentiment without benefit of reason.

Some say this is a good thing and I would not disagree, but it is still an I-It relationship.

frg001 said:

heh - I am 40, and have had this feeling many times, over many years. And each time I get it it strengthens my belief that a god/creator/etc certainly does not exist. So I certainly agree people should strive for this feeling as it makes me feel all the more at peace with a powerful, unknowable, god-less universe.

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In contrast to what you might think about God-as-a-concept, God is not there to be placed on a pedestal, but to be discovered as the source of one's own essence.

frg001 said:

Ok.
I am pretty much a nailed on fundamentalist atheist.
However.
There are times.
Like right now.
I feel 'spiritual'.

The oneness and acceptance of life, mortality, and the ease I feel, make my mind wander into the possbilities that are out there, in the almost infinite expanse of the universe.
My mind floats.
My heart slows.
And I wonder.
It's certainly a good feeling, sometimes (as now) but not always brought on by alcohol, or other, and the only word I know is 'spiritual'... Is there a better word for the likes of me maybe?

Click to expand...

If you view yourself as only a complex bunch of atoms, where does this floating consciousness come from? Is it something that can be seen, heard, smelled or touched by someone else? If not, where does it originate from?

Interesting replies.
@R_S - I describe myself as a hard atheist, because I absoultely believe there is no 'creator of the universe'
I don't really think Pantheism is right either. For me Pantheism is atheism except we call the whole of existence 'god' - well for me I'll stick with 'universe' and call myself an atheist.

@N_S
The floating conciousness I believe is simply a physiological reaction inside our brains. We can recreate these feelings with aid of man-made or naturally occuring chemicals quite easily.

However, I guess sometimes it makes me feel (again, for want of a better word, spiritual).

This reminds me a little of the articleIn Awe of Everything. It is about an atheist's sense of spirituality. It is a pretty interesting read and probably addresses some of the stuff fr001 is talking about.

Quath said:

This reminds me a little of the articleIn Awe of Everything. It is about an atheist's sense of spirituality. It is a pretty interesting read and probably addresses some of the stuff fr001 is talking about.

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Great link..frubals...!
This excerpt sums alot up for me...


"The truth is far more inspiring and powerful than religious mythology. Knowing that the cosmos was not made just for us opens up whole new vistas of wonder and mystery - it makes it all the more surprising and amazing that we are here regardless. Our own existence, and our consciousness of that existence, is a thing so incredible and strange that it alone qualifies as the greatest miracle in our experience. Our life is a glorious mystery, and only by living with our eyes on the ground can we ignore this fact. When one truly understands this, one stands in awe of everything - and that is the spirituality of an atheist.

The spirituality of theism, by contrast, is very human-centered, arrogantly anthropocentric. It postulates that everything that exists does so only for our benefit, that the universe is ultimately subservient to us. It imagines that this universe of a hundred billion galaxies each made up of a hundred billion stars was created for the sake of one star, and that that one star in turn was created only so that it could warm a planet a millionth of its size, and that that entire planet and its gloriously complex four-and-a-half-billion year history of life was created only for the sake of the beings who currently bestride its surface."

Excellent. And so so true (In my opinion )

On the contrary, atheism is what is human-centric in nature. It implies that, because there is no purpose to the universe, we must live our lives focusing on ourselves (because our selves is all that we have).

Perhaps some religions are human-centric, but only if the concept of 'god' is a projection of human experience and ideas.

frg001 said:

The oneness and acceptance of life, mortality, and the ease I feel, make my mind wander into the possbilities that are out there, in the almost infinite expanse of the universe.
My mind floats.
My heart slows.
And I wonder.
It's certainly a good feeling, sometimes (as now) but not always brought on by alcohol, or other, and the only word I know is 'spiritual'... Is there a better word for the likes of me maybe?

Click to expand...

Funny alchahol is called "spirits"

Ordinary word usage cannot describe the deep extraordinary experience of life.
I say you coin your own word/phrase.

Reach out/in and see/form/grasp your own personal symbolism...
and know what it means for/to you.
Like poetry...
it will never mean exactly the same thing
for any two people.
I wouldn't worry about that.

Our deeper/inner experiences of life will always be personal
and MOSTLY unshareable anyway.

Don't you think?

tomspug said:

On the contrary, atheism is what is human-centric in nature. It implies that, because there is no purpose to the universe, we must live our lives focusing on ourselves (because our selves is all that we have).

Perhaps some religions are human-centric, but only if the concept of 'god' is a projection of human experience and ideas.

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Very odd conclusion if you ask me. I as an atheist believe humans to be almost irrelevant as far as the universe goes, while a traditional christian,muslim,jew,etc thinks the world has been made for them.
I obviously believe that THIS life is all we have, but the most important people are not necessarily OURSELVES - My son comes first. I would jump off a cliff for him.

UltraViolet said:

Funny alchahol is called "spirits"

Ordinary word usage cannot describe the deep extraordinary experience of life.
I say you coin your own word/phrase.

Reach out/in and see/form/grasp your own personal symbolism...
and know what it means for/to you.
Like poetry...
it will never mean exactly the same thing
for any two people.
I wouldn't worry about that.

Our deeper/inner experiences of life will always be personal
and MOSTLY unshareable anyway.

Don't you think?

Click to expand...

I do, and I think you sound drunk

frg001 said:

"The truth is far more inspiring and powerful than religious mythology. Knowing that the cosmos was not made just for us opens up whole new vistas of wonder and mystery - it makes it all the more surprising and amazing that we are here regardless. Our own existence, and our consciousness of that existence, is a thing so incredible and strange that it alone qualifies as the greatest miracle in our experience. Our life is a glorious mystery, and only by living with our eyes on the ground can we ignore this fact. When one truly understands this, one stands in awe of everything - and that is the spirituality of an atheist.

The spirituality of theism, by contrast, is very human-centered, arrogantly anthropocentric. It postulates that everything that exists does so only for our benefit, that the universe is ultimately subservient to us. It imagines that this universe of a hundred billion galaxies each made up of a hundred billion stars was created for the sake of one star, and that that one star in turn was created only so that it could warm a planet a millionth of its size, and that that entire planet and its gloriously complex four-and-a-half-billion year history of life was created only for the sake of the beings who currently bestride its surface."

Excellent. And so so true (In my opinion )

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I agree with tomspug. Atheism is actually very human-centered. While a sense of wonder at the beauty and vastness of the universe, and humanity's seeming insignificance in light of the universe, is all well and good, at the end of the day atheism still promotes the idea that man is in control of his own destiny, that man is the pinnacle of evolution, that man is the center of his own universe, that man is his own god, essentially.

Christianity, on the other hand, is God-centered, not man-centered. A Christian looks at the universe with just as much wonder and appreciation, and still sees humanity's frail insignificance in comparison, but such observations lead to different conclusions. The vastness of the universe points to the vastness of God, the immeasurable wonder that is God. Christians do not limit their thinking at wondering at the universe alone----they wonder at the awesome Being who created it. Far from anthropocentric. More like "God-centric."

And far from producing an arrogant attitude in seeing how this awesome Being called God could create such a vast universe, and yet show such love and concern for us puny, insignificant human beings, such an outlook produces deep humility. The universe was not made so much for us humans as it was to show the glory of God.

When God is taken out of the picture, man cannot help but be his own god. And thus, man-centered.

Hope said:

...at the end of the day atheism still promotes the idea that man is in control of his own destiny, that man is the pinnacle of evolution, that man is the center of his own universe, that man is his own god, essentially.

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No doubt some atheists do that, but atheism itself is simply the lack of belief in gods, whether by dogmatic rejection or simply a critical withholding of judgment until sufficient evidence comes in.

frg001 said:

The floating conciousness I believe is simply a physiological reaction inside our brains. We can recreate these feelings with aid of man-made or naturally occuring chemicals quite easily.

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Yes, but you are missing my point. How can I empirically know that you are conscious? Why is consciousness something that we cannot sense externally (with any of the 5 senses aided by any sort of instrument) like everything else that we know of in the Universe?

The one question in need of an answer is the question of God. Science, with all of its strident gains, must still remain contented to describe the “what” of human observations. Only God can answer the “why.”
(Stephen Hawking)

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In the words of sociologist Max Weber,

Man embraces religion at the point of meaning.

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And it matters:

Because more consequences for life and death follow from the affirmation or denial of God than from any other basic question. (Mortimer Adler)

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A universe not originating in personality is without intrinsic meaning or purpose: it is devoid of truth, beauty, and goodness except for the arbitrary projections of the observer. Wonder without assignment to a an originating personality is mere sentiment, a psychic illusion, and calling it “spiritual” is, at best, a philosophic distortion; at worst a descent into a world of nihilism and despair. It is like waking up in the morning, looking in the mirror, and seeing nothing.