Christians: Why is belief more important than morality?

keevelish said:

God is ONLY all-forgiving when a person accepts his free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. Why should he forgive a person who rejects him?

Click to expand...

Hello? Just look at the Crucifixion. Jesus specifically said, Forgive them father for they know not what they do. He is saying that to people who have brutally beaten him, stabbed him with a spear, humiliated him, and nailed him to a cross. They obviously did not accept his free gift of salvation.
So a better question for you is...Why should he forgive a person who crucifies him? And how many of us could do the same?

Why should he forgive a person who crucifies him?

Click to expand...

Love

And how many of us could do the same?

Click to expand...

Probably not me.

Joannicus, you can't take pieces out of the Bible to fit your story and ignore others.

Mark 9:44, 46, and 48 all say "where the worm never dieth and the fire quencheth not."

Why do you think Jesus preached more on HELL than on HEAVEN? Maybe because Hell is a severe reality.

Do you think that the rich man who went to hell and begged Lazarus to give him water and tell his family about hell was in denial? This certainly was NOT a parable. Jesus never once used a specific name of a person in any of his parables.

Doc- Matthew 7:22-23: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God will reject those who reject him. People who don't want to have anything to do with God have no place in heaven. Jesus still wants ALL to come to him though, but it is of their own choice.

2 Peter 3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The athiest has no reason to come to repentance because he or she believes that there is no God.

If everyone gets to go to heaven , no matter whether they believe in God or not, then Jesus died in vain. There was no reason for him to die on the cross. Obviously mankind could save itself because God would accept them no matter what they were like- he is of course all hunky-dory with everything.

keevelish said:

Joannicus, you can't take pieces out of the Bible to fit your story and ignore others.

Mark 9:44, 46, and 48 all say "where the worm never dieth and the fire quencheth not."

Why do you think Jesus preached more on HELL than on HEAVEN? Maybe because Hell is a severe reality.

Click to expand...

I thought hell was cast into the lake of fire.........mmmm

If it isn't already, it will be. I probably got impatient as usual

The athiest has no reason to come to repentance because he or she believes that there is no God.

Click to expand...

In death, is god revealed to the athiest?

Scorn said:

In death, is god revealed to the athiest?

Click to expand...

And perhaps that is the true hell. To have the truth revealed and then be denied His presence.

But can anyone tell me? Is that an accepted reality of Christians?

I believe that God is revealed to the Athiest at death- because he will be judged when the book of life is brought out and he is not in it. The Bible says that EVERY knee will bow.

The athiest will still not go to heaven though.

Look at the demons- their knee will bow to Jesus as well, but they will be condemned to the lake of fire, just as anyone who has not accepted Jesus Christ as his or her saviour.

It is horrible to think that many people we care about may not go to heaven- but is that not all the more reason to spread the gospel so that people can make a decision for Christ?

The unsaved person cannot get saved until he realizes he is lost.

<We can certainly judge which is the worse of two sins when considering a single individual,...>

We are not defined by our actions, but who we are, who we are becomming,
determines our actions. It does not automatically follow that a sinful action implies
guilt before God. Even if two people commit the same sin, it is not a given that both
are guilty before God. I am not a thief because I steal, I steal because I am a thief.
When a sinful action contradicts who you have become, there is no real guilt before
God. Consider a troubled husband needing a little extra money until payday in order
to buy food. He takes money from petty cash, returns the money on payday, confesses his sin. There is no guilt before God.
Another fellow has discovered that stealing is easier than working
to provide for his needs. It is who he has become, the sinful act of stealing does not
contradict who he has become, there is guilt before God.

It is most unfortunate that we are more driven by fear and guilt than the
love of God and one another.

pcarl said:

<We can certainly judge which is the worse of two sins when considering a single individual,...>

We are not defined by our actions, but who we are, who we are becomming,
determines our actions. It does not automatically follow that a sinful action implies
guilt before God. Even if two people commit the same sin, it is not a given that both
are guilty before God. I am not a thief because I steal, I steal because I am a thief.
When a sinful action contradicts who you have become, there is no real guilt before
God. Consider a troubled husband needing a little extra money until payday in order
to buy food. He takes money from petty cash, returns the money on payday, confesses his sin. There is no guilt before God.
Another fellow has discovered that stealing is easier than working
to provide for his needs. It is who he has become, the sinful act of stealing does not
contradict who he has become, there is guilt before God.

It is most unfortunate that we are more driven by fear and guilt than the
love of God and one another.

Click to expand...

I think you are misunderstanding the original quote. The scenario you lay out is two people, same sin. The quote is talking about just one person, comparing one sin to another.

Also I have to disagree with you when you say that the first man who steals is not guilty before God. I don't claim to know who God deems as guilty, but I really don't think poverty justifies dishonesty. God gives us challenges, but breaking one of the ten commandments isn't ever the way to get through them.

Scorn said:

But can anyone tell me? Is that an accepted reality of Christians?

Click to expand...

Not in my house. We believe that only in life is God revealed to anyone. Death is considered like a temporary state of sleep and all people will eventually be resurrected. In this new resurrected life God would reveal all the mysteries and secret things of the world.

Not in my house. We believe that only in life is God revealed to anyone. Death is considered like a temporary state of sleep and all people will eventually be resurrected. In this new resurrected life God would reveal all the mysteries and secret things of the world.

Click to expand...

Yes! All of the good and none of the bad!!:woohoo:

Which religion is this??? I'd love to subscribe!

But on a serious note. Does God ever say that He will reveal all the mysteries and secrets of the world? I certainly hope He does to some extent, but I don't know if there is any reason to believe He will. Do you have a certain scripture in mind???

I 'm staying well clear of this one; ready ? (ding ding) Seconds out, please!...................

keevelish said:

If everyone gets to go to heaven , no matter whether they believe in God or not, then Jesus died in vain. There was no reason for him to die on the cross. Obviously mankind could save itself because God would accept them no matter what they were like- he is of course all hunky-dory with everything..........................

Click to expand...

keevelish said:

............Joannicus, you can't take pieces out of the Bible to fit your story and ignore others.

Mark 9:44, 46, and 48 all say "where the worm never dieth and the fire quencheth not."

Why do you think Jesus preached more on HELL than on HEAVEN? Maybe because Hell is a severe reality.

Click to expand...

Hell is real for now, It isn't a place as the west says. It is a condition of the soul which in turn makes us miserable if we dislike the presence of God and His righteousness that we will experience in eternity. It (hell) will also be consumed by the fire of God's Uncreated Light or Fire in the end (see Revelations 20:14) and it will be WHAT WE HAVE DONE and Haven't Done as a result of what we believe that will matter when we see His Face on that terrible day of the Great Judgment.

<Also I have to disagree with you when you say that the first man who steals is not guilty before God. I don't claim to know who God deems as guilty, but I really don't think poverty justifies dishonesty. God gives us challenges, but breaking one of the ten commandments isn't ever the way to get through them.>

Allow me to attempt to clarify my point. 'Guilt before God' requires a free,
absolute 'NO' to God and this is what destroys the relationsip of man to himself, to his fellow man. It is a 'No' to God that, if defines one at death, is called definitive perdition, judgement. 'Guilt before God' is not simply commiting a sinful action, God
is not a scorekeeper. But in our freedom, in our humaness, we make mistakes. This
is not the same as rejecting God with ones total being. Maybe another example will
illustrate my meaning. Consider the sin of adultry. A man gets fired, stops at a bar, has too much to drink, is approached by a woman offers herself. In a moment of weakness he agrees, after which, because of his guilt, he confesses to his wife, and
receives the sacrament of reconcilation. This singular action contradicts his fundamental 'Yes' to God. A man and woman, working in the same office, decide to have an affair. With full knowledge of and indifference to the consequences of their
action they continue their relationship. There is a fundamental 'No', an absolute
rejection of God. They were already adulterers.