Is Christianity that bad?

Mr Spinkles · Dec 21, 2007

Mr S said:

In any case, don't you agree that affirming that one possesses such a perfect document hinders the capacity for thinking freely?

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rocketman said:

Yes I agree. If they are never allowed to revisit their interpretation at a later date.

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Mr S said:

Including the interpretation that the Bible is not perfect, contains error, etc.?

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rocketman said:
I suppose that would be the exception.

That's a pretty gigantic 'exception', don't you think? A whole lot of free, rational discourse becomes 'off limits' as soon as you insist upon this 'exception'.

Imagine if I were to restrict my thinking on the spiritual and ethical lessons of Moby Dick in a similar way: oh, I'm open to any interpretation at all, as long as it's consistent with Moby Dick being a perfect book, unrevisable and universally applicable as a standard for all human conduct.

Do you agree or disagree that affirming that one possesses such a perfect document hinders the capacity for thinking freely?

rocketman · Dec 22, 2007

Mr Spinkles said:
That's a pretty gigantic 'exception', don't you think?

You didn't address my qualifier. Perhaps I would have been better off saying this: "I suppose that would be the exception, if it were always true."

[Blue added by rocketman just now]

A reminder of the qualifier:

"On the other hand .. the NIV for example is pretty forthright in it's footnotes about what has been derived from questionable sources etc; Groups are born because of this very kind of reasoning. I think that healthy spirit of questioning what is divinely given and what is not qualifies as reasoning. But yes, I agree that one has to join another group if their conclusions are significantly different, but hey..."

I think it the exception is true sometimes, for cults and so on, but I don't think it applies to groups that have an internal process of reviewing their interpretaion. For the big christian groups the cycles involved are often far wider apart than many would like, but hey..

Mr Spinkles said:
Do you agree or disagree that affirming that one possesses such a perfect document hinders the capacity for thinking freely?

Disagree. Unless we are talking about cults and groups that don't allow interpretation, ever. I'd agree if there were no divisions within book-based religions. I'd agree for people who have been brainwashed into thinking that they belong to the 'only' correct group/interpretation. Depending on what society we are talking about, that last one can range from not many to a great many, but that's another thread.

edit: failing to question the source material occasionaly would also be an 'agree'.

Mr Spinkles · Dec 22, 2007

rocketman said:
You didn't address my qualifier.

You're right. My apologies.

I think your qualifier reduces, but does not eradicate, the hindrance to thinking for oneself inherent in claiming possession of a perfect book. If I claimed to hold in my hand a perfect DVD, or an audio cassette completely free of "error", or a PowerPoint presentation that is an unrevisable standard of conduct for all time...well, it would bring many people to their knees, and not in prayer.

You seem to think that no restriction--as long as it allows for some 'interpretation'--can hinder free and open inquiry. We can agree to disagree there, I suppose.

Nick Soapdish · Dec 27, 2007

MidnightBlue said:
For instance, the way Christians insist that Jesus is God but refuse to consider following his teachings.

No one can follow Jesus's teachings perfectly. We are all flawed. We are saved by faith, not be acts.

DallasApple · Dec 27, 2007

Nick Soapdish said:
No one can follow Jesus's teachings perfectly. We are all flawed. We are saved by faith, not be acts.

But your faith has to represented by some sort of "act"...Otherwise your faith is a feeling you have...If its not an "action" then what is it?

Jesus didtn come here and say...I need not act...Im a believer..Jesus was all acts...the way he treated others and what he did...

Willingly going into a situtaion where he was at risk and He knew he would die was an "act"....A big one...

What is faith without an act??

James 2:22 (King James Version)

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect.

Blessings

Dallas

DallasApple · Dec 27, 2007

Oh and P.S...

Thats as silly as telling your wife you love her...but you dont have to show it in any act(plus you may in fact do things wrong.)...The fact that YOU know you love her is enough...

Cow patty!!!

Blessings

Dallas

Nick Soapdish · Dec 27, 2007

DallasApple said:
But your faith has to represented by some sort of "act"...Otherwise your faith is a feeling you have...If its not an "action" then what is it?

Jesus didtn come here and say...I need not act...Im a believer..Jesus was all acts...the way he treated others and what he did...

Willingly going into a situtaion where he was at risk and He knew he would die was an "act"....A big one...

What is faith without an act??

James 2:22 (King James Version)

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect.

Blessings
Dallas

I agree to a certain point. If we have faith in Christ, then good acts will follow. But if we are to sin, does that mean we are not saved? What Christian has never sinned besides Jesus?

No doubt we are judged by our transgressions. Jesus speaks of an order in Heaven and that our place will be determined by our acts. But salvation rests on faith, and what fruit we produce is a testimony to our faith.

Thats as silly as telling your wife you love her...but you dont have to show it in any act(plus you may in fact do things wrong.)...The fact that YOU know you love her is enough...

I agree

Quiddity · Dec 31, 2007

9-10ths_Penguins said:
Well, to start with, Christian theology is different from secular morality. I don't know any Christians who would claim that it's "immoral" for a non-Christian to work Sunday, for example, or to worship other gods. Our society has "shaken out" certain moral rules; these tend to agree with Christianity in some regards, but not others. They also agree with Islam, Hinduism, and Paganism in some regards, but not others.

Im not sure Im following you. I asked you to expand on this (post# 115):
I'm not sure that this view matches with several ideas in Christian theology (it would make God's gift of the Ten Commandments to Moses redundant and pointless, for example), but still, if we accept your premise, it would make morality "Jewish" just as much as it would be "Christian".

In response to this (post# 114):
And we recognize that such universal morale exist not because of Christianity per se, but because God wired it into us. So really, it's still Christian for us, even if you don't recognize it as such

I think you may be misunderstanding me. Im not saying that certain morals and ethics are only found in Christianity or that its source is even Christianity (although some Christians may make that claim). What Im saying is that Americas groundwork was indeed Christian and the fact that it also became secular and it aligns itself with other religions can be said its because of Christianity that it was possible.

In other words, it could have been some other groundwork that could have easily derailed from the universal norms you seem to recognize. Christianity was born in dialogue and controversy so it was an easy transition to make.

9-10ths_Penguins said:
As I alluded to, one group who will enforce morality is your peers, though they're not really an "authority". If you interfere with the interests of your neighbor, he will protect those interests. If he interferes with your interests, you'll protect yours. A balance would naturally work out.

Good Luck with that. If history can show us anything its that things dont balance themselves out. Some will claim its because of the backwards moral systems of the religious masses, but as time will show us what non-theist systems will be capable of. Instead of having a dumb religious emperor, youll have a smart atheist dictator with tons of bombs. Far fetched?

9-10ths_Penguins said:
I see asking "how can you have morality without it being decreed by an authority?" very much like asking "how will your goods have prices without them being set by the government?" People will decide for themselves; things work themselves out through give-and-take. If you notice, the generally accepted morality we have now is, for the most part, a balance between the rights of each individual.

Socialism 101?...lol...Cant say I have much hope for it. We arent talking about small tribes that share goods here. Things arent that simple when you already have people with all sorts of different ideas.

9-10ths_Penguins said:
I think I'm getting to the point now where the hypotheticals are starting to get a bit blurry - what sorts of beliefs are we talking about?

Post# 114:Where to start. Abortion? Monogamy? Gay marriage?

If I understand you correctly you are saying men like Jefferson and others held such beliefs for personal reasons. Although its interesting that its for personal reasons in this case and that you refuse to attach such beliefs with either Secularism or Christianity. Care to explain?

9-10ths_Penguins said:
Well, I'm certain some Christian Churches had official positions in favour of slavery (for example, as I've mentioned before here, the Anglican church owned slaves outright at one point), but hopefully you recognize the point I was getting at: despite the fact that a stance in favour of slavery was at one point advocated by many Christians, and despite the fact that there are Biblical passages that seem to accept the practice (in the New Testament) or explicitly condone it (in the Old Testament), an acceptance of slavery is not a part of "Christian" morality or virtues. In the same way, other beliefs, morals or practices can be considered to not necessarily be "Christian", despite being held by many Christians individually, and despite having Biblical support.

I think you got the two in red backwards, but I get your point. Well as I said, I can only speak for my Church.

Willamena · Dec 31, 2007

Victor said:
Do people really believe it's that bad or is it just there failure to understand how said religion functions?

From my experience, it's rare when to bump into a person who fully understands what they are objecting to......Does anyone relate?

Probably the latter. I don't fully understand it myself, but through an interpretation of the symbolism I have seen the potential for it. I think you're right that few who criticize it actually understand it, but there is also a consideration that some who practice it misunderstand it, and are vocal in their misunderstandings.

PureX · Dec 31, 2007

Victor said:
So I was talking to an older catholic in my parish. And I only mention "older" because she's not very familiar with the computer world and all it's complexities.

Anyways, I hinted at the fact that there are quite a few people out there that view Christianity and even Catholicism as an evil and oppressive organization. She was floored to find out that people viewed it that bad.

She was aware there was disagreements, but not to the point that people would categorize as oppressive and evil.

Do people really believe it's that bad or is it just there failure to understand how said religion functions?

From my experience, it's rare when to bump into a person who fully understands what they are objecting to......Does anyone relate?

I was raised Catholic. And there was a time when I was still quite young that I tended to despise the Catholic Church. But that was a long time ago. I don't despise it, now, I just have no desire to be a part of it.

The Church has done great harm over the centuries. There is no doubt about that. But I believe it has also done a lot of good, that people don't see because it happens on a much more personal level. The atrocities we see, because they are so huge and glaring. But we don't see all those little miracles that happen every day thanks to someone's belief in Christ. And they DO happen. Not divine magic, or feats of metaphysics, but the kind of simple miracle like a drug addict who finally discovers that he can live without taking drugs.

Small acts of love and aid happen all over the world every single day because people believe in their religion. We should not ignore this when we see the acts of terror and destruction that also sometimes comes from people who believe in their religion.

Quiddity · Dec 31, 2007

Willamena said:
Probably the latter. I don't fully understand it myself, but through an interpretation of the symbolism I have seen the potential for it. I think you're right that few who criticize it actually understand it, but there is also a consideration that some who practice it misunderstand it, and are vocal in their misunderstandings.

That is a very good point.

Quiddity · Dec 31, 2007

PureX said:
I was raised Catholic. And there was a time when I was still quite young that I tended to despise the Catholic Church. But that was a long time ago. I don't despise it, now, I just have no desire to be a part of it.

The Church has done great harm over the centuries. There is no doubt about that. But I believe it has also done a lot of good, that people don't see because it happens on a much more personal level. The atrocities we see, because they are so huge and glaring. But we don't see all those little miracles that happen every day thanks to someone's belief in Christ. And they DO happen. Not divine magic, or feats of metaphysics, but the kind of simple miracle like a drug addict who finally discovers that he can live without taking drugs.

Small acts of love and aid happen all over the world every single day because people believe in their religion. We should not ignore this when we see the acts of terror and destruction that also sometimes comes from people who believe in their religion.

Well, I would say one is working in accordance to it's beliefs, while the other is not. People might not know that though.

PureX · Dec 31, 2007

Victor said:
Well, I would say one is working in accordance to it's beliefs, while the other is not. People might not know that though.

Religion is man-made. We can make it reconcile whatever ideology we want it to. Some people use it to justify their worst inclinations, and other people use it to develop their best inclinations. I think the latter gets far too little credit, sometimes, because the examples of the former are always so glaringly hypocritical.

Don Penguinoini · Dec 31, 2007

Its not that bad! Its worse!

Quiddity · Dec 31, 2007

PureX said:
Religion is man-made.

Both irrelevant and debatable.

PureX said:
We can make it reconcile whatever ideology we want it to.

Of course...but that doesn't mean it does. That's my point.

PureX said:
Some people use it to justify their worst inclinations, and other people use it to develop their best inclinations. I think the latter gets far too little credit, sometimes, because the examples of the former are always so glaringly hypocritical.

That's part of it. It's also a great tool for someone already struggling in the faith or that has beef with it.

Smoke · Dec 31, 2007

Nick Soapdish said:
No one can follow Jesus's teachings perfectly. We are all flawed. We are saved by faith, not be acts.

Nevertheless, it's interesting that people who claim to believe Jesus is God won't even make a good faith attempt to follow his teachings, and excuse themselves by saying it would be too hard.

PureX · Dec 31, 2007

Victor said:
Both irrelevant and debatable.

It's not irrelevant, and I would appreciate if you would think more carefully before making that kind of response. Any fool can call something irrelevant just because it's irrelevant to him. But that does nothing to add to or further an honest conversation.

Victor said:
PureX said:

We can make it reconcile whatever ideology we want it to.

Click to expand...

Of course...but that doesn't mean it does. That's my point.

It does for the person doing it. And that's all they care about. They don't care if you agree with their interpretation of their religion or not. You are not the yardstick by which they must think or live. And so they do as they see fit with their religion. Just as you do. And some people do great harm with it. We all have seen this. But a lot don't. A lot of peolple do great good because of their religious beliefs. We just don't tend to see them so easily.

Somkid · Dec 31, 2007

I honesty (and most of the people I know) feel about Christianity the way most Christians feel about Islam. This is based on what the Bible says we find it perverse, twisted and evil in general.

I was having a discussion with my wife the other day and she said for Buddhists some times it seems we are to hard on what others believe (which is not the Buddhist way) and I told her I didn't really care what people believed but when they wave a book at me that says I and everyone in my village should be killed because we don't believe it, well it becomes personal. I also mentioned to her that according to the Bible the next time one of our children does not obey us it would be quite with in our rights to take them out back and stone them to death. She now sees my point.

I would have no problem with Christianity just burn the book and start over write one that preaches peace and tolerance for others and don't defend the Bible as it is and justify it by saying that we don't understand because actually we do better than most people that wave it in the air, we actually read it.

Nick Soapdish · Jan 1, 2008

MidnightBlue said:
Nevertheless, it's interesting that people who claim to believe Jesus is God won't even make a good faith attempt to follow his teachings, and excuse themselves by saying it would be too hard.

Among all the Christians I share fellowship with, I have never heard someone say that. What are you basing this on?

Captain Civic · Jan 1, 2008

Somkid said:
when they wave a book at me that says I and everyone in my village should be killed because we don't believe it, well it becomes personal. I also mentioned to her that according to the Bible the next time one of our children does not obey us it would be quite with in our rights to take them out back and stone them to death. She now sees my point.

I'd like to see where, in Christ's teachings, that gives me the right as a Christian to murder you because you are not a Christian, or to kill my child because of disobedience.

Is Christianity that bad?

Mr

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