Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

Katz said:

You are misinterpreting the verse, FFH.

Click to expand...

Scriptures need no interpretation, they are plain enough, especially that one.

"After all we can do" is better understood as meaning, "apart from all we can do."

Click to expand...

You're interpreting scriptures to fit your particular belief, one cannot take place without the other.

I know as well as you do that God expects us to keep the covenats we make with Him, but the bottom line is that we are forgiven through the grace of His Son, Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

If we turn from our sins, and only from those sins we turn from, does Christ's sacrifice take affect. Also, if we believe and have faith in his atoning sacrifice for our sins, then we truly do have a hope for salvation and exaltation, if we meet all the other necessary requirements.

Alma 11: 37
And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

Alma 5: 21
I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

Alma 7: 14
Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

Moroni 10: 26
And wo unto them who shall do these things away and die, for they die in their sins, and they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God; and I speak it according to the words of Christ; and I lie not.

Katzpur said:

I didn't mean to imply that you were without faith, although I can see why my comment could have been understood that way. I only meant that if a person is going to pray about the truth of the Book of Mormon, it would do little good if they had already decided -- for whatever reason -- that it was not inspired. At the end of the BoM, the writer encourages the reader to ask God if the things he has read are true, and that if he will ask in faith, he will receive an answer to his prayers. If you felt no desire to pray, and did not believe that the book might be what it purports to be, you would likely not gain anything by praying about it.

Click to expand...

I would agree if I was indeed praying about it that would be fruitless however that is not what I was stating other. As I evaluate a scripture I open in a prayer to be open and led by the spirit. The spirit in other cases (Gospel of Thomas, Kabbalah) has filled me and given me the joy that I find in the gospels. I did not feel that joy when reading the BoM. I also apply this method to books already existing within the bible and find the epistles though just like the BoM hold valuable lessons neither filled me with the joy, hope, or love that I found in the Gospels through the spirit.

astarath said:

Just because I dont believe in the BoM does not mean I am without faith. I very firm in my faith and have been led by the spirit to pray through many extracanonical scripture deemed heretical by the Pauline church. My faith in Christ and the Power of the spirit is strong and flowing and in the case of the BoM scripture the spirit was not in it...for me personally.

Click to expand...

Yes, you do have a great spirit about you.

Don't discount the Book of Mormon and consider this scriptre when pondering the Book of Mormon.

Satan would like nothing more than to blind our minds and drag us all to hell with him, he's an idiot, yet cunning in the ways of man.

2 Nephi 32: 8
And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.

Katz said:

Okay, if that's what you meant, I have no quarrel with what you said. But Jesus Christ will save millions of people who never heard of Joseph Smith, and regardless of how highly I esteem Joseph Smith, he is not my Savior by any stretch of the imagination, nor is he yours.

Click to expand...

Of course he's not our ulitimate savior, but he's done more, save Jesus Christ only, for our salvation and exaltation than any other man who's ever lived on this earth, and to him we owe that much, and we'll all be forever grateful for the sacrifices he made in this life, to bring forth the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, so that all men might have a chance to be saved and exalted with Christ and our Heavenly Father.

Indeed, this would be a tittle of truth which is full of truth and value however the teachings nevertheless do not instill me with the spirit. Without the spirit the text is not God breathed. Had I judged this book solely on the standard of my heart I could understand how I would be mislead but rather I leave the judgement not up to me but to the spirit who has in the past lead me to unknown scriptures to the Pauline Churches.

FFH said:

Scriptures need no interpretation, they are plain enough, especially that one.

Click to expand...

Then we need no prophets and apostles. We can just read the books.

You're interpreting scriptures to fit your particular belief.

Click to expand...

Actually, it wasn't my interpretation; it was someone else's. But it made sense to me. For somebody who gets their beliefs from mystics and Bible Code, you don't have a lot of room to speak about how I'm interpreting the scriptures.

astarath said:

I would agree if I was indeed praying about it that would be fruitless however that is not what I was stating other. As I evaluate a scripture I open in a prayer to be open and led by the spirit. The spirit in other cases (Gospel of Thomas, Kabbalah) has filled me and given me the joy that I find in the gospels. I did not feel that joy when reading the BoM. I also apply this method to books already existing within the bible and find the epistles though just like the BoM hold valuable lessons neither filled me with the joy, hope, or love that I found in the Gospels through the spirit.

Click to expand...

Well, to each his own. I'm sure I wouldn't feel the Spirit in some of the writings you do. We each have to find our own path.

Exactly this is why in my OP I encouraged all to evaluate for themselves the integrity of scripture with which to find truths.

Katzpur said:

Then we need no prophets and apostles. We can just read the books.

Click to expand...

Prophets bring us scripture, we read them and let the spirit witness whether they are true or not, don't convolute them.

There is no salvation in Chrit alone, we must make rightoeous efforts to be pure.

We cannot be saved in our sins.

Actually, it wasn't my interpretation; it was someone else's.

So you're relying on another's interpretation. Care to cite that source ???

Click to expand...

But it made sense to me.

Click to expand...

Well then it must be true. Sorry, I just gotta give you a hard time about it, especially cuz it isn't true.

For somebody who gets their beliefs from mystics

Click to expand...

Care to cite where I used the term mystic or posted any links to any mystics ??? Visionaries, yes, mystics no. Mystics delve into the spirit world of evil, nothing remotely good about them.

and Bible Code

Click to expand...

My doctrinal beliefs don't stem from any Bible code, yet there are sound doctrines encoded in the Bible, none of which conflict with the surface text, as long as they are legit codes.

You don't have a lot of room to speak about how I'm interpreting the scriptures

Click to expand...

Oh, I have plenty of room, as long as you're misinterpreting scripture.

Too easy to spot.

Click to expand...

astarath said:

Exactly this is why in my OP I encouraged all to evaluate for themselves the integrity of scripture with which to find truths.

Click to expand...

These are flawless scriptures.

Book of Mormon - MormonWiki

Introduction to the Book of Mormon
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

from a mormon point of view one would agree however they are indeed quite flawed if you feel that the BoM is not instilled with the spirit that concept is indeed flawed.

astarath said:

from a mormon point of view one would agree however they are indeed quite flawed if you feel that the BoM is not instilled with the spirit that concept is indeed flawed.

Click to expand...

You need to clarify, usually you are extremely well spoken. I love your style of writing, you word things very eloquently, but sorry, this last post I was unable to follow.

What were you trying to say?

Ah, I think I follow you now, you feel the Book of Mormon does not have a good spirit about it.

I've heard that all too often, even from those investigating the church who were closest to me. The spirit you are feeling is an evil one, because Satan does not want anyone reading, pondering or praying about the Book of Mormon and he'll try his best to keep us all from reading, pondering and praying about that sacred book.

Push through the bad feelings and read, pray and ponder the teachings of the Book of Mormon anyway, in spite of the opposition you feel.

I experience such opposition to reading the Book of Mormon that years ago I had to purchase the Book of Mormon on tape, then later purchased it on CD and then just recently ripped it onto my computer. I turn it on especially when I'm relaxing and have nothing better to do but rest and recover for the next week, that day is usually Sunday, cuz I work 6 days a week and have been for nearly every week of my life.

I used to play the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants on tape, then CD, all the time in my car, right now I commute on a bullet bike.

Just bought a new computer and ripped the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants onto it, so It's just a click away now.

I own a copy of the BoM and have read excerpts from time to time. Never have I felt the spirit within myself when reading it. For others the spirit may have lead them to it but for myself personally I do not find the spirit there. My apologies for the lack of clarity I am totally wiped!

astarath said:

I own a copy of the BoM and have read excerpts from time to time. Never have I felt the spirit within myself when reading it. For others the spirit may have lead them to it but for myself personally I do not find the spirit there. My apologies for the lack of clarity I am totally wiped!

Click to expand...

No problem, this forum wipes me out too, it takes a lot of energy and concentration to post here.

Lot of sharp people here.

The spirit (of God) speaks to us in a "still small voice," which whispers to the mind and testifies to the heart the truth of all things.

The spirit (of God) fills the heart and gives peace to the mind, it's and extremely subtle quiet thing, that's why it's necessary to be quiet, ponder and pray about things (truth). It takes effort, concentration and a whole lot of mental energy to focus on the truths of God and cut through the clutter (false teachings of this world) which comes at us from all directions.

1 Kings 19: 12
~Introduction~
Jezebel seeks the life of Elijah—An angel sends him to Horeb—The Lord speaks to Elijah, not in the wind, nor the earthquake, nor the fire, but in a still small voice—Elisha joins Elijah.

12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

1 Nephi 17: 45
Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God. Ye have seen an angel, and he spake unto you; yea, ye have heard his voice from time to time; and he hath spoken unto you in a still small voice, but ye were past feeling, that ye could not feel his words; wherefore, he has spoken unto you like unto the voice of thunder, which did cause the earth to shake as if it were to divide asunder.

Doctrine and Covenants 85: 6
Yea, thus saith the still small voice, which whispereth through and pierceth all things, and often times it maketh my bones to quake while it maketh manifest, saying:

I know the voice of the spirit and how it guides. My faith is not that new. And I never said that items of truth can not be found in the BoM however I did state that the work as whole did not contain the spirit for me. The epistles of Paul are much the same for me as they hold several elements of truth within them but I do not find the spirit within them.

madhatter85 said:

Why don't Christians accept the Book of Mormon to be true? It testifys of Christ our Savior, as the Messiah, the Great Mediator. And it's a solid Book, it has substance.

You don't believe there is any way that Christ would have appeared to his "Sheep of another fold" (mentioned in the bible) in the americas after his ressurection. Or that Both God and Christ would appear to a modern day prophet.

Yet, they believe that God, or even the "Mother Mary" would speak to 6 old women in Bosnia?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on why you think the way you do.

Click to expand...

I might reccomend looking at the witnesses to the golden tablets.
In that time there were records of deaths and births, a census taken anualy, etc.
Go to a non-Mormon refrance page and research those names. I leave the truth to be discovered by you.
If you want more, PM me.

Just elaborate your message here as this is the thread in which to share this knowledge with all Mormons and Christians alike!

All that should matter within the Christian community is wther you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior .

This whole argument hinges on "who's right and who's wrong." The entire validity for the LDS hinges on an assumption that the rest of us are "apostate." So then, you come to us "apostates" and wonder why we don't accept your book as valid. My question is this: Why are the opinions of "apostates" of any importance? Why do you care about our opinions? Is it just morbid curiosity? Is it some kind of misplaced attempt at evangelism?

The RC's will never agree with you, because they believe that they are the "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church." Protestants will be more likely to get along, because they are more likely to say, "as long as you believe that Jesus is Lord, that's good enough." From my point of view (that "the Church of Christ upon earth is essentially, intentionally and constitutionally One"), I don't understand why we must hold the BOM to be valid in order to play in the same sandbox (which is God's kingdom).

Katzpur said:

Oh, you explained yourself just fine, Athanasius.

Offended me? Now why would it offend me to be told that a man I believe to have been a prophet of God "spit in the face of Jesus"? Surely you wouldn't be offended if I said the same thing about the Pope.

So am I, but I don't go around throwing insults at the Pope.

And I judge Catholic doctrine as being flawed. Please understand that I am not making a personal attack here. Regardless of whether you're being objective or subjective, you're being rude.

No, that's not the problem at all. You were very understandable.

No, all Christians don't believe in it. Thirteen million Christians believe that God speaks today to a living Prophet and living Apostles, who lead His Church today just exactly as Peter and the other Apostles led it anciently.


Look, when I first saw the title of this thread, I thought, "That's kind of dumb. If other Christians accepted the Book of Mormon, they'd be Latter-day Saints." The more I thought about it, though, I came to the conclusion that the real question here is why other Christians don't believe that Jesus Christ could have ministered to His other sheep in the western hemisphere, and why they would reject a book which testifies of the divinity and saving power of our Lord, Jesus Christ. In the book of Amos in the Old Testament, we read, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto hisservants the prophets." It doesn't say that He would suddenly choose to clam up at the time when His children needed Him more than ever before.

See, the issue here is that I don't believe for one minute that God declared the canon to be closed. And if He had, it would be a new revelation. (The water being substituted for wine, incidentally, came about when God revealed to him that the wine he had purchased for the Sacrement had been poisoned by his enemies -- presumably good Christians. What a silly example. As if there haven't been changes of even greater significance in your Church over the years.)

Like I said before, you explained it very well. It's not your fault if the logic sucks.

If the shoe fits, wear it. St. Augustine belonged to a Church I believe was apostate. So do you.

Oh, for heaven's sake, what are you thinking man? Of course they didn't talk about Moroni. They weren't even aware of his existence. What a totally inane statement. And by the way, there is no such thing as the "Mormon Church." It's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Click to expand...

Katz, I understand more clearly now were you are coming from. Again I am just trying to be bold and explain the Churches position. I am sorry if it seems hurtful to you. I understand that you guys teach that our All other Christians especially the Catholic Church belong to apostate Churches(Hence you may think we are slapping Jesus in the face after all we are the great abomination teaches false things according to your tradition) and I do not get offended. I am just trying to show you why Most devout Catholics who know their faith and live it well would have a real hard time accepting Joseph smith and the Book of Mormon. Because to us it is slapping Jesus in the face. I mean that s just what Jesus said himself basically. In LK 10:16 he tells his Church "He who hears you hears me but he who rejects you rejects me." Now If someone rejects the Churches teaching or declarations they Reject not just the Church but they reject Jesus himself, a serious sin. I equate this with slapping Jesus in the face. I am not saying that you do this. I do not think you do. I am saying that Joseph Smith sure did when he rejected the Christian Church, her councils and her teachings and began to claim extra or new revelation like the book of Mormon and water for communion.

The Catholic Church's doctrines do develop as the Holy Spirit enlightens the Church over the centuries and cause the Church to mature in her understanding of already existing revelation. Like a Acorn that develops into a oak tree all Catholic dogma is found either in Scripture or Apostolic Tradition in its full or root forms. No new revelation is given. We cannot ever change the Words or actions Jesus instructed us to do when he himself gave us the sacraments.. actions like Using Wine for the Eucharist. What we can change is practices. We can never change dogmas which are revelation from God. God's truth doesn't change.

I understand that you believe that LDs are Christians. But please understand that most of Christianity as a whole(Myself included and my church) does not consider them to be Christians.

We do not consider the declarations given by the Pope to be prophesy or revelation. The Canon was given by God through the apostles. It was already apostolic revelation. We used already existing revelation in tradition and scripture figure this out. it was nothing new. some communities used these books other did not. we just needed a universal decree so one would finally know. And that is what happened. This is not revelation though in our eyes. The pope cannot come out and say things like "Lets use water and Pizza for the Eucharist" when our Lord already revealed that wine and bread is to be used. I hope that makes sense.

its not that we don't belevie that Jesus ministered to other sheep as he said, its that we do not belevie he minister to the sheep your talking about. God could do anything he wants. But he just didn't do it that way. That is why we believe Joseph Smith to be a lier and a false prophet and all the other books of scripture the LDS Church uses to be fictional at best. it is funny that you guys believed my church to totally apostate though because If it wasn't for the Catholic Church and her Infallible decrees on the new testament canon Joesph smith would not have had a new testament to call scripture. So on one hand you guys by even believing in the new testament canon that you do are picking fruit from a tree you didn't plant. And in your eyes your borrowing from a Apostate Church(US) their sacred Book and accepting thier decrees on the canon just as Joseph Smith did. Why would you guys do that?

why would Jesus let the Church Completely apostatize for 1800 years? So there were no Christians and no Christian Church until Joseph smith came around? and Yet you borrow from the (Non-Christian-Apostate chruches) Bible canon all the time. That is not logical! do you see the problem that I do with Joseph smiths logic?

This I believe is why most educated Christian ministers at the time came down on Smith when he claimed this stuff. It just seems silly on a logical level That Smith would claim that stuff in light of history and the reasons I mentioned.