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Is Trinity in the Bible?
- Thread starter Yasin
- Start date
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I did no such thing. "IF" Yeshua said that then you are conveiently bypassing the (of) in addition to the (and) that is being used. This is being used by some one that saw them seperately. The (and) is the clincher that shows you there is seperation.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. There has been a substitution. Most of the christians pray in the name of Jesus in striking contrast to the commandment on prayer.
Matthew 6 6-15
[6] But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
[7] "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words.
[8] Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
[9] Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread;
[12] And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors;
[13] And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
[14] For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;
[15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Now what most have done is begun to pray in the name of Jesus. Notice how he informs us that God is (in secret). If God made manifest in the form of a man and everyone was supposed to have known this then he is no longer a secret hence Yesha would not be telling the truth. If he is telling the truth then he is not part of a trinity.
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
No trinity here.....
UnityNow101
Well-Known Member
I don't understand why people seem to pass by the part where Jesus states that he has a God! That seems very basic to me. Sure, you can see the trinity if you twist and construe certain passages to make it look as though it is there. I would advise people to be careful when doing such things, as it can only lead to confusion and seperation between people that would have a basis for agreement on the Oneness of God. When Jesus says that he has a God, believe him. When he has the opportunity to say that he is God and does not, don't add words to his own. Let Jesus speak for himself. Read with an open mind. Sit down and research the trinity and where it has come from.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I agree..
I often wonder why most people skip over or never really seem to be able to explain that verse. Here's the answer I received lateley.
This question was addressed in the article here.... http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/972421-post553.html
Look at the question I asked and the response I got.
DreGod07
"You have failed to accurately answer why Yeshua would tell her ....."I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God".
Muffled
"Perhaps I misuderstood your question. If you are askingwhy Jesus is making this statement, I can answer that it is impossible to know what motivates Jesus to make any statement."
Can you believe this?
That statement is not a mystery to those who can clearly see, Yeshua's own testimony, he is not God. As I said in that post, that was probably one of the clearest indication from Yeshua he is not God.
You noticed I said ("one" of the clearest). There are others that show us he is seperate from God.
John.
17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
No need for over anylizing here. It's perfectly clear.
John 8:28
So Jesus said, ‘When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I am he (Please note here he does not mean God. He means The Messiah), and that I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me.
Now that verse sounds familiar. He said basically the same thing back in John 5:30, 12:49-50
5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 12:49
"For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
John 12:50
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Interesting enough, 17:4 had already parted from the lips of Yeshua in John 5:36.
5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh 6:38"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me.
6:38 is great. I guess "God" has two wills.....:sarcastic
We could go all night and pull out the many verses him showing us he isn't God....to the point of repeating himself. Yeshua, as you and I agree, are one in purpose. His words are so clear it's amazing others don't see the simplicity in his statements...
John 14:1
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe (also) in me.
Oneness....(but not one in the same)......
Muffled
Jesus in me
If it were names, it would say names. The "ofs" only mean that there is a reference back to the name and the "and" is only a connector in the list of refeences back to the name. The original language is Greek not Hebrew.
Some people get lost in ritual and miss the general principle. In the culture of His day washing feet was considered a service of minor courtesy. Needlesss to say we should be courteuos to one another and be of service to one another when needed.
This command as any other can be fulfilled by obeying the spirit of the command not the letter of the command.
But you're making an inference that isn't based on any rule of language that I know of.
As an example, consider the full style of Queen Elizabeth II, which has a similar form to the Biblical passage in question:
Like your passage, it uses the structure "...of 'X', and of 'Y'". It seems like you're arguing that X and Y are implicitly the same thing.
Is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland the same thing as Her other Realms and Territories? Are England and New Zealand the same place?
Muffled
Jesus in me
This is argued in the General Religious Debates Thread "Is Jesus God in the Flesh."
I disagree. I think this is just a smoke screen on your part to dismiss valid arguments. I think when Jesus doesn't say something and someone adds it in, that it is twisting.
I believe in the oneness of God and the Trinity. I do not believe that God is a trinity. God's oneness is revealed through the Trinity.
Again Re: the previus reference to a thread about this. Jesus does state that He is God and there are many proofs as well.
TruthInCatholocism
Apologetics
The mention of a triune god is clearly in the bible, Only those who wish not to see it, see it not and those who come to the realization of the triune God will see it clearly
All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19].
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Corinthians 13:14].
To God’s elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [1 Peter 1:1-2].
Can it be any clearer? Not really
All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19].
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Corinthians 13:14].
To God’s elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [1 Peter 1:1-2].
Can it be any clearer? Not really
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
Wow.
All it takes is all three to be mentioned in the same verse to support the Trinity concept?
Seems like many people need to take a refresher course in BASIC English.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I totally agree.
It's interesting to note here that IMO Paul is usually conflicted in what he taught.
We can clearly see that none of the followers thought Yeshua to be God especially when we read;
John 11:22
But I know, that even now, whatsoever you will ask of God, God will give it you.
And I see people like to quote Paul but what did Paul say in the beginning of 2nd Corintians?
2 Corinthians 1:3
Blessed be God, even the Father of our Master Yeshua the Messiah, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
Sounds like what we heard earlier that parted from the lips of Yeshua "My father and your father and My God and your God." as well as "My God, My God why have you left me?"
Here's another quote that we can ponder over. If Yeshua is God then why would God have to beg himself for something? We will also be able to gaze upon these statements and see that Yeshua's followers did not believe him to be God as Martha did not believe him to be God;
John 16:26-30
[26] In that day you will ask in my name; and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you;
(NOTE: Be advised that when some one says "I pray thee" or as in the verse above it can mean -to beg-) See (Gen. 12:13, Ex. 4:13, Num 10:31...etc. TOO many to list because there are dozens more that follow this structure or language of the bible). Let's continue.....
[27] for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from the Father.
[28] I came from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am leaving the world and going to the Father."
[29]His disciples said, "Ah, now you are speaking plainly, not in any figure!
[30] Now we know that you know all things, and need none to question you; by this we believe that you came from God.
The trinity is man made. Yeshua's followers did not take him to be God nor did Yeshua teach his followers he was God. There is clear separation in who they were as confirmed by Yeshua. As we also see, as conflicted as he appears sometimes, Paul said Yeshua had a god as confirmed by Yeshua in John 20:17.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The Bible is "man-made." What's your point? Or are you suddenly arguing for "the Bible fell out of the sky one day" POV?
I would argue that the Trinity is not "man-made," particularly, but Church-made. The Church, while it is comprised of people, is the Body of Christ (which is Biblical). Therefore, when the people who wrote and compiled the scriptures, and who came to understand the Trinity, accomplished those things as the Body of Christ (This was an act of the Church -- not of individuals), it was Christ who was accomplishing those things. Therefore, in a very real sense, the Trinity, being Church-made, was Christ-made, not "man-made," (since the Church is the Body of Christ.)
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Been stated already. The concept of a triune God was not taught by Yeshua
I'm not particularly sure I even commented on the validity of the bible. Anyway, it has nothing to do the subject at hand.
Man...Church......Tomato/Tomaato.....It's sounds as though you are splitting hairs to justify this concept.
Thus it was "man made". No where did I say it was one particular person who was the originator of the trinity concept.
Yeshua did not teach this concept at all. He taught that he and God were one in purpose and he prayed to God we would become one in purpose with (them) as well. It wasn't until after the death of Yeshua men, some of whom never met Yeshua or heard him speak, began to teach others that Yeshua was God in the flesh (speciffically those who were never exposed to Yeshua (gentiles)).
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You're using the concept of "man-made" as a qualifier for your position that the Trinity is not true. Yet, the Bible, which was "man-made" in the same sense as the Trinity, is used as the standard by which you try to support your POV. You can't support your POV with something "man-made," to disprove something else that you claim is "man-made." You can't say, "this man-made thing doesn't say anything about the Trinity. Therefore, the Trinity is man-made, and, since it's man-made, it must be false.
Your argument that Christ didn't teach the Trinity is refuted here. Since the Church is the Body of Christ, whatever the Church does, Christ does. Therefore, Christ has, through his Body -- the Church -- taught the Trinity.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Then we are speaking of interpretation. I look upon the bible as to what Yeshua said, did..what his followers said and did and no where do we find Yeshua teaching his followers the concept of trinity. Martha and the rest of the followers were plain and straight to the point as to how they viewed Yeshua. Again, it wasn't until after the death of Yeshua "people" began to teach he was God. The multitude of statements from Yeshua and the ones from those who followed him clearly show the opposite.
Sure I can. Again, we are talking about interpretation. When Yeshua says "my God, My God why have you left me"....Should I then assume, as trinitarians have, that Yeshua is God? NO...The exclamation is clear here. There was no God on the cross. When Martha says "What ever you ask of God HE will give it to you"....Should I also take that as Yeshua is God and his followers thought he was?....NO.......We can clearly see here that he isn't nor did anyone else assume him to be God. But when the letters and opinions of men after the death of Yeshua crept in people began to associate Yeshua with God. These have been interpreted to mean that Yeshua is God or is some how equal to God but because he is equal then he is God. This kind of thinking is beyond logic because to be equal with something...something must already exist for you to compare it to. We know this is not true because Yeashua not only said that God was greater than him but God was greater than all.
Again, I never gave any commentary on the validity of the bible to be the word of God or not. That has no place here since that was not the original question. But let's see... So the bible is man made...OK....In that man made book Yeshua does not teach his folowers trinity. His followers maintained that Yeshua was only the messiah and/or servant of God. They never viewed them as the same. Yeshua in his prayer to God in the book of John chapter 17 let's us know that he and God are one in purpose as he prayed that his followers were to be one in purpose with him and God. Other people interpreting that book made new doctrines from it. Is that not fair to say?
Catholics don't believe as the protestants or JW's or LDS or coptic or baptist etc.... They all have their interpretation based on the same book (maybe with the exception of LDS..a little).
Then list your book, chapter and verse where Yeshua taught the followers he was God or equal to God.
The christian church are of many different denominations with many new practices and doctrines. Which one is the true body of christ?
Should we listen to the LDS, JW's, protestants, 7th day adventist or the catholic? Should we listen to them all since the "CHURCH" is the body of christ and adopt all their rituals and doctrines?
The bottom line is, the question was asked and all we have to go on is the book. In reviewing the teachings of Yeshua, did he teach his followers that he was God, equal to God or part of a godhead. If you believe he did then list the evidence that he did. I have found no such evidence that he did. I do find a ton of information from the opinions or letters of some who never met Yeshua or heard him speak.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
They all are, together.
That's up to you.
Listening to all of them might be a good idea. Adopting the rituals and doctrines that have meaning for you is also a good idea.
You're wrong. That's my point. "all we have to go on is the book" is a false statement. We also have the oral teaching of the Church. Included in that would be...the Trinity! although the scriptures don't come right out and outline (with the exception of John I) Trinitarian theology, there are many, many scriptures from which we can extrapolate. How do you think the Church Fathers came up with Trinitarian theology in the first place?
Do you think that the gospel writers "met Jesus, or heard him teach?" If so, you're naive. Even the gospel writers were writing second-hand (at least). No one really knows exactly what Jesus said or taught. Therefore, all we really have to go on is what the Church says about Jesus (even the gospel accounts0...hence...Trinitarian theology.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I highly doubt that. There is no cohesiveness in the many denominations. You may believe Yeshua to be God but LDS and JWs don't. The rituals and doctrines you follow may seem way out or wacky to other denominations. Saying they're all together is wishful thinking.
What oral teachings would that be?
The doctrines they have come from their interpretation of what is in the book. So I must go to the book to see if the "church's" doctrine of trinity is valid and when I look at what Yeshua taught...He did not teach his followers he was God or equal to God nor did any of them take him to be God.
There is nothing there in the teaching of Yeshua to show that he or his followers considered him God or equal to God. Martha certainly didn't...His deciples finally got what he was saying when he told them God sent him. Not even Yeshua himself thought he was God, especially when he revealed he had a god but we already knew he did in John 17 (his prayer (one of many) to God).
Can you at least ask me if I believe that before calling me names? Do I believe the deciples were there when Mary gave birth to Yeshua?....NO....Even though they wrote about the birth it would be foolish of me to assume they were there. Luke wrote both the book of Luke and Acts to Theopolis. He outright says that he gathered his information from those who were eyewitnesses. The stories concerning Yeshua or what Yeshua was to supposed to have said is written in the four books so, for me, if I want to know if Yeshua taught his followers he was God, equal to God or part of a God head I don't rely on the "church"....I rely on the same souce the "church" uses. I just don't arrive at the conclusion they have because that information is not present. As you say.....from what is written in the book they have ("extrapolated)......(interpreted)...Yeshua to be God but I find it quite clear he wasn't.
This is false. There are plenty who look upon the bible and need no help from the church to figure out what Yeshua taught. His teachings were quite clear. There is no mystery in what he taught. Trinitarian theology is not needed in order to understand what Yeshua taught. Again, where is the church getting their information from..????? They're getting it from the book.
dance-above
Member
If flesh has a son it is flesh. If spirit has a son it is spirit. If a fleshly woman has a son who's father is spirit, Then you have a spiritual Man. The father who is spirit was revealed in the flesh of the man Jesus. The father the Son and Holy Spirit.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Sorry, but I feel it necessary to step in here and say that we LDS do believe Jeshua to be divine -- we just don't believe Him to be the same being as His Father is. He shares all of God's divine attributes, including the title "God," but He is physically distinct from God the Father.
He specifically said that His Father was greater than He, and He specifically referred to His Father as His God. On the other hand, when Thomas, finally recognizing the risen Savior after initially doubting, exclaimed, "My Lord and my God!" we didn't see Jesus correcting him, did we?
I couldn't agree more. As a matter of fact, Trinitarian theology only complicates the matter. As a matter of fact, it kind of reminds me of a joke...
Jesus said, Whom do men say that I am?
And his disciples answered and said, Some say you are John the Baptist returned from the dead; others say Elias, or other of the old prophets.
And Jesus answered and said, But whom do you say that I am?
Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Logos, existing in the Father as His rationality and then, by an act of His will, being generated, in consideration of the various functions by which God is related to his creation, but only on the fact that Scripture speaks of a Father, and a Son, and a Holy Spirit, each member of the Trinity being coequal with every other member, and each acting inseparably with and interpenetrating every other member, but an economic subordination within God, a division which makes the substance no longer simple."
And Jesus answering, said, "What?"
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Nice to see you rejoin this discussion. I honestly thought it was over and done with. I hope you didn't think that I mis-represented how LDS view Yeshua. I know you don't see him as God and that's what I was trying to convey in my statement. Some one else seemed to want to lump all denominations into one category but it is obvous that their are striking differences in them all. For the most Part you will find that you an I agree on who Yeshua was.
Agreed....
I also find it interesting that Paul shows us that Yeshua has a god (2 Corinthians 1:3) as conformed by Yeshua in John 20:17.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Thanks for the clarification. I think you do have a pretty good grasp of how we see Jesus Christ. I just wasn't positive, and didn't want to go back and re-read everything!