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Vicarious Redemption

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
It seems to me from observance that people want to be forgiven yet don't want to forgive (I am speaking generally and not to any one on this board nor am I responding to any other posts but mine). People talk about deserving to be forgiven --No one deserves to be forgiven. Every person has done something that is wrong, to another person or to God, and yet some people are more forgiving to themselves than to other people.

The truth is, Christians are not obligated to forgive anyone unless the person is truly sorry for what s/he had done. However, Jesus commanded that once they do apologize and repent, we, as Christians, are obligated to forgive said person. It doesn't happen that way in the real world, not even Christians (commanded by Jesus) will forgive the person who apologizes to them. I find that disturbing.

Non-Christians are not bound by Jesus' commands so they would not apply to them. But for the record, there are plenty of non-Christians who forgive readily to another. And there are plenty of atheists who will forgive, too.
 

Aasimar

Atheist
You speak as if God made us robots. Talk about a lack of understanding.

I dont' agree with you, therefore I don't understand is what I'm reading here.


News to me. Remind me to tell the 1.5+ billion believers.

Okay, tell the 1.5+ Billion believers that killing an avatar of yourself to impress yourself and enable you to forgive that which you created for being the way you created them is ridiculous.

Free agency means free agency.

So is god capable of stopping suffering?

You cannot do it. You'd never get it right, thus you'd be forever unhappy. That's what this life is teaching us. You don't want to go through it again. You do understand why God said what he did in Gen 3:22 don't you?

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Ah yes, I am like God and know good an evil now. And God is clearly evil. You didn't forget what God said in 2nd Kings 2:23-24 did you?

then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

That right, god will kill you for making fun of someone he likes. That's moral. Though it only says he killed 42, maybe there were more he spared. Ah, mercy...

Say the person you affect forgives you. Would it be ok to toss it upstairs then? And let me tell you, 'toss' is the wrong word. Try 'handing over with great humility and thankfullness and respect and meekness"

Upstairs is unnecessary. The person wronged forgave you. Now assuming you have cleared your own conciounce ( can't spell...) then you're good to go.

Honest and forthright, yep, they're a part of repentance too.

okey day then.

Are we starting a new thread here?

Seriously appalling lack of scriptural knowledge. Go do some serious reading.

I gave up doing serious reading of the bible after the 2nd full readthrough, KJV and NIV. I don't recall signing any contracts with any God so I suppose he must have signed it with something else.

If we could have paid them I'm sure we would have. No one can. Except God.

Well that's awful convenient for him isn't it. And what makes you think I wouldn't want to go through life again, I love life. Life rocks, I don't need another one. I'm happy with what I have.

The one thing you are missing in a big way is that to God we are all just as bad as each other.

Well he made us that way, so it's his problem and not mine. Talk about taking responsibility for your own actions, who the hell is holding God accountable in all this?


What if it was up to other people and not God? Say you do two really bad things. What if one victim forgives you and the other doesn't?

Then you aren't forgiven. And you'll just have to deal with that. You'll just have to be satisfied with whatever you have done to clear your own conciounse (I hate that word.)

Or what if someone you love decides to please God and accept his offer and also wants you to be with them forever too, will you say 'no I don't deserve it, sorry, bye..' ?

I'd tell God I'd love to be with them, but I'm not accepting the terms of his contract. Never signed it to begin with.

Ultimately it's all up to God, and he has offered a way out, but he won't force it on anyone. If you think it's wrong to accept this grace (free gift) keep in mind that everybody is as undeserving as you. Join the party or don't, it's up to you.

Free gift, right. I'll let you hang out with me if only you do absolutely everything I say and obey me to the ends of the earth and admit you're just a piece of dirt I made, and make sure you're humble and groveling and subservient, because I like my creations to kiss my rear.
 

rocketman

Out there...
I dont' agree with you, therefore I don't understand is what I'm reading here.
Thanks for resposnes Aasimar. You said " ... can't imagine he gets all that distraught seeing as how he could actually make everything exactly the way he wants to at any given time. " If you don't understand that the very act of allowing us to exist with free agency causes suffering then I can't help you.

Okay, tell the 1.5+ Billion believers that killing an avatar of yourself to impress yourself and enable you to forgive that which you created for being the way you created them is ridiculous.
Not an avatar. God can be everywhere at once, in any way he wants. There was nothing done to impress, but to fullfill. There was an outstanding debt that had to be paid. God can't go back on his own word, and he didn't want to lose us forever either, so he found a way, literally.

So is god capable of stopping suffering?
If you want to give up your free agency.

Ah yes, I am like God and know good an evil now.
I had hoped you would have read all of the verse. Nevertheless I'll repeat the relevant part for you: "He must not be allowed to .. live forever." Compare that with John 3:16.

You didn't forget what God said in 2nd Kings 2:23-24 did you?
Here's my take on it. If you want more detail pm me.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1012858-post40.html

Upstairs is unnecessary. The person wronged forgave you. Now assuming you have cleared your own conciounce ( can't spell...) then you're good to go.
It's not just about a clear conscience, it's about eternal life.

I gave up doing serious reading of the bible after the 2nd full readthrough, KJV and NIV.
With all due respect, I feel that you may not have understood some of the fundamental bits. The bible is full of contract (covenant) talk. If the bible is difficult how about google. Here's a start:

New Covenant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Covenant (biblical - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
New Covenant in a Nutshell

I don't recall signing any contracts with any God so I suppose he must have signed it with something else.
God is the father and we are the children. He knows what's best for us just as a Father has rules inside of his families house. He doesn't negotiate the important ones with his children, rather he lays out what's necessary and enforces it.

And what makes you think I wouldn't want to go through life again, I love life. Life rocks, I don't need another one. I'm happy with what I have.
I agree, living is a good thing! But we were talking about a life of attempting to be perfect. Do you really want to go through that, over and over, even though you will never achieve it?

Well he made us that way, so it's his problem and not mine.
He made you, not your choices. You are your problem. Fortunately, you are also his problem.

You know, one minute you have a problem with God taking responsibility and the next you complain that he doesn't. But he does. That's why he sets up the contracts (covenants) and has the final word on salvation.

Talk about taking responsibility for your own actions, who the hell is holding God accountable in all this?
No one is higher than God. Or put another way, God is love, and love doesn't have to answer to anybody.

Then you aren't forgiven. And you'll just have to deal with that. You'll just have to be satisfied with whatever you have done to clear your own conciounse (I hate that word.)
I was refering to your earlier notion that judgement should be up to the victim. My example showed that where an eteranl salvation were concerned there is a need for an overall judge.

I'd tell God I'd love to be with them, but I'm not accepting the terms of his contract. Never signed it to begin with.
As corny as it sounds, Father know best. I hope there are still people in this world who accept that there might be someone out there who knows more than we do.

Btw, sounds to me like what you are really saying is that you might be able to forgive others, but not yourself.

Free gift, right. I'll let you hang out with me if only you do absolutely everything I say and obey me to the ends of the earth and admit you're just a piece of dirt I made, and make sure you're humble and groveling and subservient, because I like my creations to kiss my rear.
Rear? No, lol, you have it arse-about-face! Seriously, being saved makes you want to be obedient, in that order.

And there is no rear kissing with God. It's like a relationship between an unconditionally loving parent and child, only magnified far beyond what we could imagine and for all eternity. Consider how God did not think he was too good to walk and talk with the first kids in the garden of Eden. Consider how Jesus became one of us and how he tried to reach out. The whole fire and brimstone thing is for when we are rebellious, and it was not the way God originally wanted things to be. Jesus said he will come and make his home with you. Sure God is 'all that', but he's much more interested in you.;)
 
Aasimar said:
So is god capable of stopping suffering?
rocketman said:
If you want to give up your free agency.
Would curing cancer truly negate our free agency? Should we stop cancer research, to avoid the tragic lack of free agency that would result in the event of a cure?

rocketman said:
As corny as it sounds, Father know best. I hope there are still people in this world who accept that there might be someone out there who knows more than we do.
To be fair, the modest invitation you are extending is not merely to accept "that there might be someone out there who knows more than we do". Rather, it is to accept that a particular group of ancient, ignorant men--themselves a subset of ancient, ignorant men--had access to divine knowledge inaccessible to the rest of us, and that they transmitted this knowledge accurately and in contrast to all the other ancient, ignorant men who made similar claims. I share your hope that there are people willing to acknowledge there may be others who know more, but of course one also hopes that there are people in this world who can recognize the difference between all-knowing beings and their self-appointed human representatives.

rocketman said:
The whole fire and brimstone thing is for when we are rebellious
Like when we break the Sabbath, or fail to profess the requisite beliefs? What loving or even sane father would damn his children with infinite punishment for these "crimes"?
 

rocketman

Out there...
Would curing cancer truly negate our free agency? Should we stop cancer research, to avoid the tragic lack of free agency that would result in the event of a cure?
At times it is not easy to present a view without re-explaining it at every point. With that understanding I urge readers of my last post to consider it as a whole, and not in pieces. The overall context is really starting with the mention of Gen 3:22, further to that I mentioned the very fact of our existence with free agency causes all manner of suffereing. Were we to remove such an agency, in the context of the Judeo-Christian "fall", then all of the direct and indirect effects would also be removed.

To be fair, the modest invitation you are extending is not merely to accept "that there might be someone out there who knows more than we do". Rather, it is to accept that a particular group of ancient, ignorant men--themselves a subset of ancient, ignorant men--had access to divine knowledge inaccessible to the rest of us, and that they transmitted this knowledge accurately and in contrast to all the other ancient, ignorant men who made similar claims.
Actually I'd hope it's the former first. The specifics of the latter is up to others, but then this was a thread about Jesus if I have read the first post correctly. ;)

I share your hope that there are people willing to acknowledge there may be others who know more, but of course one also hopes that there are people in this world who can recognize the difference between all-knowing beings and their self-appointed human representatives.
Welcome to religiousforums.com :)

Like when we break the Sabbath, or fail to profess the requisite beliefs? What loving or even sane father would damn his children with infinite punishment for these "crimes"?
If you followed my earlier link you'll know that I don't think that infinite (eternal, actually) punishment is the plan.
 

Aasimar

Atheist
At times it is not easy to present a view without re-explaining it at every point. With that understanding I urge readers of my last post to consider it as a whole, and not in pieces. The overall context is really starting with the mention of Gen 3:22, further to that I mentioned the very fact of our existence with free agency causes all manner of suffereing. Were we to remove such an agency, in the context of the Judeo-Christian "fall", then all of the direct and indirect effects would also be removed.

So basically it boils down to this.

God "could" fix things, but that would require intervention in the material world he created for us and that could directly or indirectly interfere with our free will.

Which results in a world which operates exactly as you would expect it to without divine intervention. Does this sound accurate? You can understand my skepticism here I'm sure.
 

rocketman

Out there...
You can understand my skepticism here I'm sure.
No problem. I understand. I can only suggest that you consider that the story of Jesus intervention may be real. Not necessarily right now, but one day when you have some time.

I think I'm done here. Good thread topic Aasimar.

Peace.
 

atomic47

Member
If you are waiting on being forgiven, then that act in question still controls you in a sense. Same thing if you are questioning on forgiving somebody who has wronged you. Let go of the negative energy, you may feel better.
 
At times it is not easy to present a view without re-explaining it at every point. With that understanding I urge readers of my last post to consider it as a whole, and not in pieces. The overall context is really starting with the mention of Gen 3:22, further to that I mentioned the very fact of our existence with free agency causes all manner of suffereing. Were we to remove such an agency, in the context of the Judeo-Christian "fall", then all of the direct and indirect effects would also be removed.
But cancer is not due to our existence with free agency. Getting rid of cancer would alleviate untold suffering while leaving our existence and free agency intact.

I must agree with Aasimar on this one. These are the sorts of backward conclusions that can only be reached via (irrational) faith: curing cancer is oppressive; saving your children from fatal harm makes them 'robots'; it is impossible for the father of humanity--unlike virtually any sane and loving human father--to forgive his children of their mistakes, or even the mistakes of their parents, without arbitrary conditions, as the requirement that one the children (who is also the father) be tortured and killed, and that the rest of the children believe that a miracle occurred in an obscure part of the world thousands of years ago. Sane, loving fathers simply talk to their kids directly (without worrying about making their existence to their children too 'obvious' as to infringe on their free will), judge whether or not the kids are sincerely sorry, and say "I forgive you" (or not); no human sacrifice or belief test necessary.

rocketman said:
Welcome to religiousforums.com :)
Well said! :yes:

rocketman said:
If you followed my earlier link you'll know that I don't think that infinite (eternal, actually) punishment is the plan.
Fair enough, I apologize for misconstruing your beliefs. Still, I think that it does not speak well of the love or sanity of any father who would punish his children (even a temporary punishment) for failing to hold the Sabbath or to profess the requisite beliefs.
 

rocketman

Out there...
saving your children from fatal harm makes them 'robots';
'Fatal' to God means eternal death imho. As for those who are dead now Jesus reckons to God they are alive. He also said the soul can be destroyed. Your view and my view don't extend very far. We can't see eternity, we can't fully see what's at stake. If God takes the training wheels off so be it. I'd rather learn to ride on my own without help, wouldn't you? If you had the option of going into eternity would you do it as one who had limited free will or complete free will. This is all about God not forcing people to be saved if they don't want to be, and far deeper in scope than we can cover here in a few pages.

no human sacrifice or belief test necessary.
There are many views on this but my own is that even faith itself is ultimately given, all we can provide is the willingness. God does not force people to be saved and live forever, it's a choice. An unmerciful father would let them live forever subject to the effects of sin. The stakes are therefore enormous, and a few scrapes now is nothing by comparison.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
In my situation, I would not forgive. Allthough, if I were in such a situation, the man would not live long enough to seek forgiveness.
 
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