Christian: Homosexuality and Gay Marriage

[font=&quot]This is quite a hot issue in today's world.
I have relatives that live the gay lifestyle and there are some interesting discussions around the dinner table, as you might imagine.

The scriptures and The Church have not wavered on the damage that one is causing themselves, society and other individuals when they live this lifestyle.

The Church can not condone it, nor will it ever condone it, or adultery, or any of the passions of the body, mind, soul or spirit because the prevent us from having the relationship with our Creator that He so desires for us to have with Him.

It is realy because of his love for us that he chastens us and desires that we be in full fellowship with Him and with each other.

Remember the prayer that Jesus prayed to the Father on our behalf " That we may be one with Him, even as He is one with the Father" - it is my opinion that we should work toward the desire of Christ and agree with Him toward unity with our community of humankind and with The All Holy Trinity.[/font]

I wrote this in a seperate debate. Somebody asked why God deemed homosexuality to be a sin.

The reason I believe it's a sin is because the Bible labels it as so. For an atheist, or Buddhist that wouldn't matter, but for me, a Christian, it does. So why did God say its a sin? Well, I don't want to put words in God's mouth, but I think it's basically the same as divorce. God made marriage a very holy thing (the mand and the woman become one being.....). Jesus says that if any man divorces his wife, and remarries, then that man (or woman) is committing adultery, because in God's eyes he's still married to his original wife..... there is an exception to that, but thats beyond our point.... Sex was made to be like marriage, holy in God's eyes. Homosexuality would be considered a perversion of what God made to be holy.
Now the thing that gets me is the double standard many churches show these days. They'll accept divorce, but not homosexuality.....

God has given us His own Will on how we should live but he has also given us the ability to make our own decision. If we want the fullness of his guidance and care then we will set aside our own will and live by his. It's not always easy.

This is where I differ from many of my fellow christians. The bible says it's a sin, but for some reason I just can't accept that. It's not like these people choose to be homosexuals. God made them that way, and I feel it's a sin to judge them for what God gave them. Why God himself condemns this characteristic that he gives to his own creation is the concept that I can't grasp.

I don't believe a man or woman is born gay. It is their choice. People are born on a level of masculine and feminin and there are many degrees that make people the way they are. People are suppose to join with the opposite of sex to make life so that it continues on.


Groovy you are right in a sense. If God makes a person "gay" then that is God's doing not any christian and we should not interfer or hate. Perhaps God has decided to prevent their line of life by ending it. Our ancestors gave their life so that we can have ours and life will continues on and on in this fashion of a man being with a woman. A selfish generation disrespect what their ancestors have struggled to give us. The only reason we are here today is because of the cycle of life, birth and so on. The path of being gay is death in my view but being chrisitan is to never treat anyone with anything other then love as Christ has loved us especially unto gays.

God made them that way, and I feel it's a sin to judge them for what God gave them.

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Are you saying it's a sin for Christians to judge them, or for God to??????

If you're talking about Christians, then that is pretty ridiculous. It's ok for us to say one indisputible sin is wrong (because the Bible tells us), but saying homsexuality is a sin (which the Bible also says is wrong), then we ourselves are sinning? Think about that. If you still hold that view, and believe that stealing, or adultery is a sin, then you yourself are judging (according to your philosophy), which, by your standards, means you're sinning.

I don't believe God makes people gay either.....
I believe that our culture, and even many Christians, lead people to that direction.... I'm talking about guys now because that's my own gender, and the good Lord knows I don't understand women enough to make any sort of assumptions...... I think because we expect every man to be strong and athletic, and competitive, etc. etc., those who aren't and may be a little more effiminate are picked on, and even called gay sometimes! I think many of the times it's deeply psychological. I'm not saying this is the case for all, but for many. That I believe is a sin. And I don't believe many Christians are aware of it. I think we should show more compassion to homosexuals, because in a way, we may have led them to that lifestyle!

Of course I don't have data, or scientific studies to back that up. It's merely my own speculations, so think about it, and if it sounds right then cool, if not, then forget it.

chris9178 said:

Are you saying it's a sin for Christians to judge them, or for God to??????

If you're talking about Christians, then that is pretty ridiculous. It's ok for us to say one indisputible sin is wrong (because the Bible tells us), but saying homsexuality is a sin (which the Bible also says is wrong), then we ourselves are sinning? Think about that. If you still hold that view, and believe that stealing, or adultery is a sin, then you yourself are judging (according to your philosophy), which, by your standards, means you're sinning.

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Sorry, that is a bit unclear what I said. I meant Christians.

You make a good point here - judging people for homosexuality is no better or worse than judging people for other sins IF you accept what the Bible says about homosexuality. The biggest difference you and I have on this issue is that I strongly believe that God made gay people the way they are. So what's my response to what the Bible says, then? Confusion. An unsatisfactory response, for certain. I wish I could understand this.

The biggest difference you and I have on this issue is that I strongly believe that God made gay people the way they are.

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Why? Do you base it on your own belief, or scientific study, or feelings?
I'd like to understand your point of view.

groovydancer88 said:

This is where I differ from many of my fellow christians. The bible says it's a sin, but for some reason I just can't accept that. It's not like these people choose to be homosexuals. God made them that way, and I feel it's a sin to judge them for what God gave them. Why God himself condemns this characteristic that he gives to his own creation is the concept that I can't grasp.

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As Chrsitians we struggle together to submit to God's requirements and His character. He has revealed his words to us, and we should struggle to understand. It could be possible that you are misunderstanding the nature of homosexuality.

This thread is much friendlier than I had anticipated. Thanks to all!

chris9178 said:

Why? Do you base it on your own belief, or scientific study, or feelings?
I'd like to understand your point of view.

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People I've talked to who are gay and articles I've read about gay people all support the idea that these people don't choose to be homosexuals. The lifestyle they have is the only one they are happy in - it didn't feel "right" any other way. Angellous could very well be right when s/he says I may be misunderstanding something - maybe they do in fact make the choice. This would make things different for my point of view...but I'm not entirely certain it would change my mind. This is because I don't think being a homosexual hurts another person or disrespects God, so I don't see what makes it a sin. But maybe I'm misunderstanding this, too - homosexuality sure is a controversy, and has offended a great deal of people. Aside from the Bible saying it is a sin, though, I don't know why. (I don't mean to say that the Bible isn't important - I just fail to comprehend why God deems homosexuality a sin.)

groovydancer88 said:

This is where I differ from many of my fellow christians. The bible says it's a sin, but for some reason I just can't accept that. It's not like these people choose to be homosexuals. God made them that way, and I feel it's a sin to judge them for what God gave them. Why God himself condemns this characteristic that he gives to his own creation is the concept that I can't grasp.

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You have struck a key point. Is homosexuality an identity or a behavior? If someone calls themself gay as an identity, that is fine with me. Perhaps they want companionship with another man with no intent to have sex. Perhaps they just like the attention. Heck, I don't know.

It is the sexual behavior that the Bible calls out as being immoral. That being said, the Bible does tend to spend more time focusing on just about every other sin. For example, adultery is a far worse sin, and has greater consequences in our society.

atofel said:

You have struck a key point. Is homosexuality an identity or a behavior? If someone calls themself gay as an identity, that is fine with me. Perhaps they want companionship with another man with no intent to have sex. Perhaps they just like the attention. Heck, I don't know.

It is the sexual behavior that the Bible calls out as being immoral. That being said, the Bible does tend to spend more time focusing on just about every other sin. For example, adultery is a far worse sin, and has greater consequences in our society.

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Hmm. I understand what you're saying... but why would the identity be ok, and the sexual behaviors not? Let's say there is a homosexual couple, and they truly love each other. We're ok so far, but as soon as they have sex, it's a sin. What's wrong with them expressing their love for each other the way any 'normal' couple who loves each other would? (Premarital sex doesn't count here, since they aren't allowed to be married in this country anyway. Let's just assume that they would be married if the law permitted.) I don't see why that kind of behavior is immoral.

groovydancer88 said:

Hmm. I understand what you're saying... but why would the identity be ok, and the sexual behaviors not? Let's say there is a homosexual couple, and they truly love each other. We're ok so far, but as soon as they have sex, it's a sin. What's wrong with them expressing their love for each other the way any 'normal' couple who loves each other would? (Premarital sex doesn't count here, since they aren't allowed to be married in this country anyway. Let's just assume that they would be married if the law permitted.) I don't see why that kind of behavior is immoral.

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Oh boy. This is a touchy subject.

Technically, it is a sin once there is lust, even before the act. Impossible standards I know, but Christianity is not known for a morality based on mediocrity.

I don't claim to be an expert as to why God has made homosexuality forbidden, but I can give you my speculation. I believe it has to do with social dynamics and the fact that homosexuality will always be regarded as a component of sexual liberation. There is an intended design for sexual activity. This design includes a husband and a wife, and it is something that enriches their emotional bond. Anything that strays from that model and becomes socially acceptable will require some degree of sexual liberation in the overall society.

Sexual liberation also includes pre-marital sex, pornography, sexual explicit media, topless bars, massage parlors, prostitution, adultery, etc. Some of these things require a greater degree of liberation to be considered socially acceptable, but I believe you cannot liberate one without influencing the perception of the others. They are all tied together because they stray from the perceived original model. The perception of what this original model should be is rooted deep within our psychology and cannot be replaced through any type of social engineering.

Ultimately, the current gay movement is the result of a sexual revolution that started when the birth control pill started being used.

EDIT: Heh, I forgot where I was going with this. :149: The reason why sexual liberation is bad is because it deteriates the family unit. Symptoms include more single parents and a higher divorce rate. Overall, this is bad for society.

groovydancer88 said:

Hmm. I understand what you're saying... but why would the identity be ok, and the sexual behaviors not? Let's say there is a homosexual couple, and they truly love each other. We're ok so far, but as soon as they have sex, it's a sin. What's wrong with them expressing their love for each other the way any 'normal' couple who loves each other would? (Premarital sex doesn't count here, since they aren't allowed to be married in this country anyway. Let's just assume that they would be married if the law permitted.) I don't see why that kind of behavior is immoral.

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Man is suppose to love another man like a brother, not a wife.

Atofel, True blood, it makes sense what you have to say. Sexual relationships between a man and a man or a woman and a woman are sinful because God created humans so there would be that kind of love between a man and a woman. Basically, it goes against the blueprints for humanity. (Stop me whenever I misinterpret anything you say.) With you so far. But why, then, would God create a man who loves a man? Back to the identity thing, I really don't think homosexuals choose to be homosexuals. If this is so, they will either be sinful or unhappy (or possibly both) their entire life. Why does God make homosexuals the way they are?

groovydancer88 said:

But why, then, would God create a man who loves a man? Back to the identity thing, I really don't think homosexuals choose to be homosexuals. If this is so, they will either be sinful or unhappy (or possibly both) their entire life. Why does God make homosexuals the way they are?

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Our lives are riddled with challenges, some much more severe than homosexuality. These challenges are quite varied and come at you from different angles. So why does God gives us challenges, many of which seem very unfair and difficult? Only God knows, but I guess the best answer is that if none of us had any challenges, we really wouldn't have much to live for.

I should mention that just because we say a behavior is wrong, as Christians, we should not persecute someone for that behavior. I have several gay friends. I don't actually know if they have ever been sexually active and I don't want to. But if I did find out, it would not change my relationship with them. I still think it is sinful behavior, but then I think all of my friends are sinners. I say that light-heartedly, but there is some truth to it. You do not have to be perfect to be a friend.

Very good point. I understand now. (I tried to give you frubals, but I don't think I'm allowed to yet...maybe you'll get them later...)

The bible tells us to Judge righteous judgement, and to beware of false doctrine-

I think it is amazing how society labels all sorts of sin these days as "diseases" and "lifestyles" Alcoholism is not a disease it is drunkeness. Homosexuality is not a lifestyle, it is an abomination.