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Christian: The Church is not divisible.

Joannicius

Joannicius

Active Member
"People in our time speak of the divided Church and the urgent need of reuniting it. Father Florovsky remarks that 'the Church is not divided, has not been divided, did not divide ... and is not divisible.' What is divided is the Christian world. This 'is in a state of descent, conflict and - is it not time to admit it? - in collapse. ...' We should not speak of 'disunion in the Church, but of disassociation from the Church.'"

Fr. Georges Florovsky's (+1979) teaching on Ecumenism
​
 
michel

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
chris9178 said:
I disagree. The church is divided.
Click to expand...
not only that, but the world is divided. Unity is a lovely Ideal but Ideals come adrift when you bring humans in the equation!:)
 
Scuba Pete

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
If only some of the other sects would convert to true Christianity, then we wouldn't have this problem. Look for the church that most closely resembles the First Century church and you will have found it.
 
Scott1

Scott1

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
If only some of the other sects would convert to true Christianity, then we wouldn't have this problem. Look for the church that most closely resembles the First Century church and you will have found it.
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The first Century church believed in many things that you DON'T believe in: Real Presence etc...... so what do you mean by this statement?
 
Scuba Pete

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
I believe in REAL presence, but not as you do. I believe that it is spiritual. Is that any less real? God is spirit, those that worship him must do so in spirit and in truth.

They believed in love... so do I.

They believed in repentance and then baptism... so do I.

They believed that Bishops should be married with children... so do I.

They believed that Deacons should be married with children... Hey! Me too!

They believed in scripture over tradition... Good night Irene... I do too!

So what other things don't you think I believe in that they did?
 
Scott1

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Fair enough.... you know I have a lot of respect for your faith.

You brought up the first century church, so I just wanted to understand.

NetDoc said:
I believe in REAL presence, but not as you do.
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The point is that you don't believe in the real presence the way that the first century Christians did..... but that's fine with me......God's grace saves, not our ability to understand doctrine!

Scott
 
Scuba Pete

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
And are we sure of that my friend?

And I also agree, God's Grace transcends much of what we quibble about. Love covers a multitude of sins! :D
 
Scott1

Scott1

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
And are we sure of that my friend?
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No..... I would have to admit that it was at least in place by the time the Canon of Scripture was formed..... and I'm pretty sure you like that particular tradition.;)
 
Joannicius

Joannicius

Active Member
Real presence was know and experienced in the catacombs.

Eucharist. The Eucharistic triptych is the very jewel of these family tombs.
In the central painting are represented seven persons sitting round a table. Their number reminds us of the disciples who gathered round Jesus on the shores of the lake. On the dishes in front of them is placed the fish: Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour.

Close by, on the left, a priest places his hands on a small table with a loaf and a fish on it, a clear symbol of the consecration which is reserved to the ministers. Standing on the other side, an orante with open arms, reminds us that to reach heaven we must feed on that consecrated bread (the Eucharist).
In the space next to this last picture is a painting of the sacrifice of Abraham and Isaac, a symbol of the sacrifice of the cross in relation to the Eucharist.
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Full Article

Any time you see a fish in the ancient writings or Hieroglyphics, it is a representation of the Holy Eucharist. If you knew and understood the way the Holy Sacrament is prepared by the Orthodox Priest and those who make the bread you could see the fish and know. You don't see the fish on most Orthodox cars etc. for we count it as to sacred a symbol to use in such manner.

It is the combining of the Sacred with the physical world, just as Christ was and now is in the Eucharist. If you don't believe He is present in the Holy Sacrament, you don't believe he was God in the flesh 2000 years ago. This isn't my words, it is the understanding of the Church Fathers. Also the same precept applies to the icons. If you can't see them as sacred, for they in a more limited fashion also join the physical with the spiritual world. That is why many of them weep oil or saline or blood supernaturally.


NETDOC---------------
You know the sciptures well, so I know you are aware of the portion that speaks of the
"HEB 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?",
what does that mean?
 
B

Baerly

Active Member
Joannicius said:
"People in our time speak of the divided Church and the urgent need of reuniting it. Father Florovsky remarks that 'the Church is not divided, has not been divided, did not divide ... and is not divisible.' What is divided is the Christian world. This 'is in a state of descent, conflict and - is it not time to admit it? - in collapse. ...' We should not speak of 'disunion in the Church, but of disassociation from the Church.'"


Fr. Georges Florovsky's (+1979) teaching on Ecumenism​
Click to expand...

We got the first glimpse of the church dividing in (1Cor.1:8-10). This continued through the years each group added their particular thoughts to the word of God. Each time man added his thoughts to the word of God there was division. The only way we can turn the tide is to all unify upon the word of God. (Eph.chapter 4) would be a good start to get back to what the bible teaches. The bible says to teach no other doctrine than what is in the bible (1Tim.1:3). There are currently so many divisions of people who THINK they are Gods people they have all decided the best thing for them to do is to AGREE TO DISAGREE. If ever there was a dangerous doctrine to follow here it is. These people have given up on being unified upon the word of God alone and decided among themselves that God will bless them if they all teach different doctrines regardless if the bible says to speak the same thing and walk by the same rule,and the bible does say those very things (1Cor.1:10) (Phil.3:16). How can we go against Gods wisdom and please him? It cannot be done. What I am afraid of, is that many think they will go to heaven when this is all over,but infact they will hear those words depart from me I never knew you. This sickens me to no end. I find so many poeple who think the grace of God will work out all the differences we see in the religious world, I DON"T THINK SO. I would be more than glad to talk with anyone who is concerned about these things. There is a church that goes by the PERFECT LAW OF CHRIST (the bible) and it alone (James 1:25) (Gal.6:,2). I would like to tell you about that church of Christ. Baerly
 
F

faithofabraham

Member
The division of man on the Word of God is quite real and alive today.
The bible has not changed and will not change.
the problem is that people dont really seem to care about there divisions. Its even taught on a wide scale that we all end up going to heaven anyways, so who should care. These minor(sarcasm) differences in our interpretations of the bible just arent that important to people anymore. As long as i leave them alone and they leave me alone everyone gets along and no conflict arises in our lives. Sad really.

foa
 
James the Persian

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Baerly said:
There is a church that goes by the PERFECT LAW OF CHRIST (the bible) and it alone (James 1:25) (Gal.6:,2). I would like to tell you about that church of Christ. Baerly
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Well done on your resurrection of an old and dead thread whose participants are no longer here. Your attempt at proselytism, then, thankfully, will fall on deaf ears. However, as the one remaining co-religionist of Joannicius and No*s on this forum, I think I can fairly speak for both when I say that we would utterly reject your 'Church of Christ' as nothing more than a pale simulacrum of the Church. No*s and I (can't remember about Joannicius) are both ex-Protestants and so we've already rejected anything you could offer in favour of the Truth found in Orthodoxy.

James
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Baerly said:
We got the first glimpse of the church dividing in (1Cor.1:8-10). This continued through the years each group added their particular thoughts to the word of God. Each time man added his thoughts to the word of God there was division. The only way we can turn the tide is to all unify upon the word of God. (Eph.chapter 4) would be a good start to get back to what the bible teaches. The bible says to teach no other doctrine than what is in the bible (1Tim.1:3). There are currently so many divisions of people who THINK they are Gods people they have all decided the best thing for them to do is to AGREE TO DISAGREE. If ever there was a dangerous doctrine to follow here it is. These people have given up on being unified upon the word of God alone and decided among themselves that God will bless them if they all teach different doctrines regardless if the bible says to speak the same thing and walk by the same rule,and the bible does say those very things (1Cor.1:10) (Phil.3:16). How can we go against Gods wisdom and please him? It cannot be done. What I am afraid of, is that many think they will go to heaven when this is all over,but infact they will hear those words depart from me I never knew you. This sickens me to no end. I find so many poeple who think the grace of God will work out all the differences we see in the religious world, I DON"T THINK SO. I would be more than glad to talk with anyone who is concerned about these things. There is a church that goes by the PERFECT LAW OF CHRIST (the bible) and it alone (James 1:25) (Gal.6:,2). I would like to tell you about that church of Christ. Baerly
Click to expand...

Actually, I Tim. 1:3 says nothing about the Bible. it merely mentions "different doctrine." We don't know what doctrine is being addressed here, nor are we to assume that the Bible is part of the discussion.

Who are these people? As far as I'm aware, the Jews are God's chosen people. We Christians (those who proclaim Jesus as Lord and follow him) are adopted by grace.
The Church never has been "unified upon the word of God alone." There has always been dissention concerning scriptural interpretation. So what? The unity of the Church is not predicated upon the Bible, but upon Christ himself. What of Christians who were around before Paul wrote to Corinth, or to Philemon? What about all the Christians in the first century before the first letter to Timothy?

Humanity has always "gone against God's wisdom." This is the whole story of the Fall in the garden. Yet, God is pleased to reconcile us to God's self. That's the good news!

Grace has already unified us into the Body of Christ, regardless of our differences. God's grace is sufficient. The differences we perceive are differences we make up in our own minds. "The Church of Christ upon earth is essentially, intentionally and constitutionally one." -- Alexander Campbell. None of our misunderstanding, none of our stubbornness, can diminish that.
 
B

Baerly

Active Member
faithofabraham said:
Curious as to what laws you speak of. And yes I would like to hear more about them.
James- speaks of the law of liberty. Kind of opens the door on what is law and what is not law.

foa
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Hi there, I love those who are curious about the bible. I am especially happy about those who will search and see if those things be so or not (John 5:39) (Acts 17:11). (Hebrews 8:10) talks about this New Testament Law we are living under today.(Gal.6:2) talks about this Law were are living under today also. Why is it the bible acknowledges this law but most everyone denies it? For many it is because they do not like what it demands of them. For others they have been taught although Jesus has a new will (or LAw) it does not require us to (DO) anything . They say Jesus did it all on the cross and there is nothing man must do. It baffles me though because I read where Jesus says obey my commandments over and over (John 14:15,21 ; 15:10,14). Do not get me wrong I truly believe in GRACE and without it we would all be in bad shape. But even (Titus 2:11,12) which teaches us about grace tells us that within the grace of God we find LAW. Laws tell us what to do and what not to do,right. Please look at (Titus 2:11,12), (vs.11) Grace appeared to all men,(vs.12)TEACHING them to do some things and not to do other things. Friends that is talking about the New Testament Law Jesus died to establish (Heb.8:6,15-17 ; 10:9, 16).(2Peter 2:20-21) teaches us that if we turn from doing (obeying) the commandments of Jesus we will be lost. Friends that sounds like Jesus wants us to be obeying his commandments.
Please notice also:
"We are disciplined Ones" by Bill Jackson on thepreachersfiles.com/discipline/000439.htm

"Uniqueniss of the Church of Christ"- Mike Riley-
thepreachersfiles.com/church/000963.htm
 
B

Baerly

Active Member
We obey this New Testament LAW when we become Christians (Isaiah 2:3)
(Acts 2:38) (Acts 22:16). It should not be a stretch to say we obey the New Testamnet LAW after we become Christians (Gal.6:2). When we obey this law it is called "calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 2:21 ; 22:16). Jesus himself said not everyone who calls me Lord (VERBALLY) will enter heaven,but he that doeth the will of my father...(Mt.7:21-27).
Notice Please:
What Must I Do to Be Saved? - thepreachersfiles.com/salvation/000606.htm

Worlds Greatest Power - Tom Moore - thepreachersfiles.com/gospel/001149.htm
 
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