Do you really believe in god?

[kmkemp]

Regarding the OP, I would definitely say that it is much harder for an intelligent logical mind to accept a religion than a lesser one. My theory is that an intelligent logical mind is also a very prideful mind that would like to think he is in complete control of his destiny. Still, after you look at the facts, an intelligent logical mind can overcome this by realizing the predicament. I have many friends that believe in God, but if I asked them any deep theological questions, they (most, not all of them of course) would probably just say that you have to take it all on faith. I'm not sure that isn't the best way, but it didn't work for me. God made us all different, after all. ~

Any who, I would wager that the reverse is true for atheists as has been pointed out already. My question is whether or not you are assuming that an intelligent religious person is necessarily in denial or not, because that would be a rather large misstep.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I think that Russell is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. He has several legitimate criticisms of many religions, especially Christianity, and from those criticisms he goes on to reject all ideas of God and religion. He finds no value at all in any religious myth or institution, and in doing so his evidence cannot possibly match his conclusions.

People who make such extreme statements are artless.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

You know, I have contmeplated my belief in God and during my contemplation I've concluded that the universe and human body is too magnificantly structured and created to just be out of chance? Tell me LogDog, are you capable of creating this universe and another human(of course without resorting to the process of reproduction and cloning)? Please explain, I'm so curious.

I agree with you here. It is unfortunate that it is assumed that people who believe in God are either not very intelligent, or that they truly do not believe it themselves. As was already pointed out, it's like saying atheists deep down know that God exists,but refuse to say so.

I would wager that some of the more aggressive, venemous atheists probably do feel that God might exist, and then are equally furious when that is challenged. Does that mean the same thing as what was presented about theists who do that?


On a side note, your post and challenge brought to mind a story of Ibrahim/Abraham when he was brought before Nimrod for questioning. Nimrod accused Ibrahim of preaching the oneness of Allah, when in fact Nimrod was God. So Ibrahim put forth the challenge that only Allah grants life and death. In answer to that Nimrod freed a prisoner on death sentence, and executed an innocent person. So then Ibrahim says, it is Allah who causes the sun to rise in the east and set in the west, so you (nimrod) cause it to rise in the west and set in the east. Defeated, Nimrod set out to have Ibrahim killed. Your challenge made me think of that.

 

[Yerda]

Is it the case that seemingly intelligent, sharp minded, critical thinking, rational, generally skeptical individuals who profess belief in a god are deceiving themselves and in all actuality do not believe?

It's possible yes.

For instance, who would masturbate if they thought that an all-seeing God created them?

Perhaps there are no secrets between man and God.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Myths, if done properly, provide little in the way of comfort. They should, in fact, rock your boat, so to speak.

I agree.

Mythology may be fiction (well, some of it must be), and like fiction, it serves as a tool of education as well as entertainment.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

For instance, who would masturbate if they thought that an all-seeing God created them?

Someone who thinks that God doesn't mind...

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Someone who thinks that God doesn't mind...

Or likes an audience.

But really, relieving sexual desire is one of those things that someone would do even if they thought an all-seeing God were watching. Would someone dare defecate if they truly believed God were watching? Of course.

 

[Yerda]

Someone who thinks that God doesn't mind...

Hey my mother doesn't mind but you can bet yer best walkin' stick that I don't do it when she's watching.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Hey my mother doesn't mind but you can bet yer best walkin' stick that I don't do it when she's watching.

Yeah, I can't imagine what kinda sick freak would have sex in front of God.

 

[Sonic247]

As was already pointed out, it's like saying atheists deep down know that God exists,but refuse to say so.

I don't think they really know he doesn't exist, I just think they don't know what he is like, plus some of the atheist I met are kind of bitter but obviously I don't know every atheist in the country. I kind of understand some of the feelings athiest probably have, especially when I see hypocrisy in fakeness in people that every one thinks are so spiritual (although it's not my job to judge them but I can still compare their words with there actions and with the word of God) or the bitterness of seeing how good life could be compared how things actually worked out in the world, but I know that God is above all that and is good even if we can't see him all the time.

 

[ayani]

Is it the case that seemingly intelligent, sharp minded, critical thinking, rational, generally skeptical individuals who profess belief in a god are deceiving themselves and in all actuality do not believe?

again with the cult of "blanket rationalism". not that there's anything wrong with being rational- one has to be. if i blow up at my neighbor for over-watering my flowers, is that rational? if i assume that my partner is having an affair just because s/he is e-mailing an old sweetheart, is that rational? in both cases, refusing to step back and examine my anger, evidence, and the 'big picture' would likely damage both relationships and cause everyone involved greater suffering.

yet for me, both situations are closely tied up in my faith in God. i believe that God would want us to respond to these situations with both rationality and compassion. and i believe that through His grace we are granted both. for me, there's really not a comflict- one (either my Faith or the situation at hand) can not be talked about without the other.

 

[matthew.william]

Is it the case that seemingly intelligent, sharp minded, critical thinking, rational, generally skeptical individuals who profess belief in a god are deceiving themselves and in all actuality do not believe?

Is it the case that some intelligent, sharp minded, critical thinking, and generally skeptical individuals who believe God does not exist actually believe Him to exist, but fear what that would mean to their perception of reality?


~matthew.william~

 

[Fragmentia]

“There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably, some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he does not dare face this thought. Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not real, he becomes furious when they are disputed.” Bertrand Russell, Human Society in Ethics and Politics

Again, I'm left to wonder if faith is really just a comfort zone that one is prone to or has acquired. I am not opposed to settling into said zones, but since I find myself unable to adhere to a faith of my own, I am led to think that faith is self-assurance, and in most cases, an effective coping mechanism.

Only part that bothers me is the frequent desire of "believers" to push their faith onto others. My comfort zone is indecisiveness. If yours is theism, does that give you the right to berate that? Western society is generally careful (at least where I have spent the majority of my time) not to stamp upon religious and spiritual structures in individuals. Where are the rights of the agnostic?

 

[Quagmire]

Is it the case that seemingly intelligent, sharp minded, critical thinking, rational, generally skeptical individuals who profess belief in a god are deceiving themselves and in all actuality do not believe?

“There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably, some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he does not dare face this thought. Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not real, he becomes furious when they are disputed.” Bertrand Russell, Human Society in Ethics and Politics

I find it strange that you would ask a question about "seemingly intellegent, sharp minded, critical thinking, rational, generally skeptical individuals who profess a belief in God" and compare it to a description of a weak minded, emotionally motived, irrational, generally self-deceptive professer of religion as if they were one in the same.

Sort of like saying; That homeless guy on the corner thinks he's Mick Jagger, and Mick Jagger thinks he's Mick Jagger, therefore they both must be crazy.

 

[!Fluffy!]

Is it the case that seemingly intelligent, sharp minded, critical thinking, rational, generally skeptical individuals who profess belief in a god are deceiving themselves and in all actuality do not believe?

“There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably, some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he does not dare face this thought. Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not real, he becomes furious when they are disputed.” Bertrand Russell, Human Society in Ethics and Politics

Well that's not the least little bit overbearing or presumptuous on Mr. Russell's part, is it?

:no:

Quoting Bertrand Russell on God to a religious forum is like quoting Bill Maher on the war to a room full of conservatives, or Rush Limbaugh on liberal bias in the media to a liberal audience.

I suppose if one goes in for manufacturing divisiveness and creating an uproar, that would be the way to go.

It is no more absurd to believe in God than to think that one is intellectually superior if they do not believe in God. I have never seen scientific or logical proof offered by Mr. Russell or anyone else, that God does not exist.

Skeptically yours,
!Fluffy!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It is no more absurd to believe in God than to think that one is intellectually superior if they do not believe in God. I have never seen scientific or logical proof offered by Mr. Russell or anyone else, that God does not exist.

Skeptically yours,
!Fluffy!

The thing about Russell is that he approaches Christianity much on its own terms and criticizes both professional and popular Christian apologetics. He attacks the arguments for God and institutionalized religion and shows the weaknesses of those arguments, but he cannot conclude that God actually does not exist. However, one would expect those who argue that God exists and participate in institutionalized religion can articulate convincingly their positive role in human life.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

I believe, and am happy therefor.

As to others, not for me to say.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[lilithu]

Is it the case that seemingly intelligent, sharp minded, critical thinking, rational, generally skeptical individuals who profess belief in a god are deceiving themselves and in all actuality do not believe?

Oh my! How can seemingly intelligent, sharp minded, critical thinking, rational, generally skeptical individuals believe in something greater than themselves??!

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Oh my! How can seemingly intelligent, sharp minded, critical thinking, rational, generally skeptical individuals believe in something greater than themselves??!

Once again lilithu, once again you hit the nail square on its head. I feel that the basis for disbelief lies in a persons inability/unwillingness to accept that there is any being in existance that is better than him, that any intelligence is higher, or that in fact there is anything greater than him. Whatever cannot be fully understood or conceived is automatically suspect. If a human cannot achieve it, it cannot be achieved. If we cannot create it, it cannot be created. If it overrides our logic, it simply cannot be.

I don't think every atheist is consciously thinking that, but I do feel the idea itself stems from exactly that type of thought. That type of thinking I feel derives directly from arrogance. This is coming from a human being who admittedly does not know all things. Who admits that its knowledge is severely limited, and perception is also limited. This human being has not even gained a complete knowledge of those things that can clearly be seen and studied, but presumes to have a complete knowledge of that which cannot be seen or studied. This same human is admittedly faulty and mistake prone, known to have been in egregious error before. This same human presumes that any who can or are willing to accept that there may be something greater than the self, is in delusion.

 

[Katzpur]

Is it the case that seemingly intelligent, sharp minded, critical thinking, rational, generally skeptical individuals who profess belief in a god are deceiving themselves and in all actuality do not believe?

I don't think so. It seems far more likely to me that you, an apparently intelligent, sharp-minded, rational individual are, for some unknown reason, unable to get the amazingly simple fact that other people who have these traits in common with you, nevertheless believe something you don't. To imply that an intelligent, sharp-minded, critical-thinking, rational individual couldn't actually believe in God is nothing short of an unintelligent, dull-minded, irrational conclusion and the refusal to accept the obvious: belief in God does not require us to be stupid or gullible. The fact that millions of intelligent individuals really do believe ought to be evidence enough of that to satisfy anyone.