“The Son is equal to his Father”

[Soapy]

Yes, that is what I mean.

I would say the purpose was so that Jesus could release the Holy Spirit into the world.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

No, I don't think the apostles were divine, although they reflected the divine spirit of Christ.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

Some Answered Questions, p. 108

25: THE HOLY SPIRIT

I don't know if that is in biblical scriptures, but it is in the Baha'i scriptures that Jesus was the Spirit of God, which would mean that the Spirit of God is a person.

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19

“WE, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit (Jesus), and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray… Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) verily, standeth before them.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 92

The Spirit of God is a title for Jesus, since Jesus has God's Holy Spirit.
However, that does not mean that the Holy Spirit is a person.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God that emanated from Jesus.

Trailblazer, the Spirit of God is that which the Father promised to pour out on all people (believers).

The Spirit of God (that which Trinitarians call, “The holy Spirit’) is that Comforter Jesus told the Apostles hd would send FROM the Father See the promise from the Father in the book of Joel… See also the book of John and the book of Acts wherein all is emphasised even from Jesus Christ, himself.

Jesus is not the Comforter, the Advocate: ‘I am sending you ANOTHER Comforter…. The Promise from the Father, which the Father said he would ‘Pour out on all flesh … in the last days!!’

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer,

????

 

[Soapy]

It’s inconceivable to you that mortality could be a chapter in the story of God?

So are you thinking that an immutable and Immortal God… is ALSO MUTABLE, AND MORTAL?

 

[Soapy]

A few things:

-The only way to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven is through unification with the father.

-The good shepherd prepares the way for the sheep but enters last, meaning he goes back for his sheep. In other words, the son unifies with the father, but then once unified, he sends the spirit of the son back to those left behind.

-Those left behind can then unify first with the spirit of the son and next with the spirit of the father, enter into the new kingdom, then they go back for the others left behind by sending the spirit of the son.

-This process repeats until all enter the new kingdom as one. The first will be last and the last will be first. None get left behind.

-When the son unifies with the father, the two stories become one. When two stories become one, they don’t just become one at the point where they unify but rather across time, including the past. When the story of a human being unifies with the story of the son (spirit) and the father (spirit), then man becomes spirit and spirit becomes man. Across all time.

Where do you get your belief from - a fairy story booklet? Nothing you just said is cohesive nor comprehensible except as a cartoon religion!

 

[Soapy]

????

Sorry.. I was editing and my screen updated suddenly.

 

[1213]

I believe so. What is your issue with that?

I think it is illogical to say they are equal, if Jesus is subjugated to God.

 

[blü 2]

Have you ever seen this scripture?

Philippians 2:
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, existing in the form of God,

Paul's Jesus (like John's but not like the synoptic Jesuses) pre-existed in heaven with God. Since Paul (and the author of John) make it clear that Jesus denies he's God and makes no claim of that kind, I'd say this means, existed in heaven with God.

did not consider equality with God

something to be grasped,a

Did not challenge God's authority.

7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant,

But put aside his heavenly form to be born a human

being made in human likeness.8And being found in appearance as a man,

He humbled Himself

and became obedient to death—

even death on a cross.

The passage you quote is known as the kenosis ('emptying') hymn and (I read) scans as a poem in Greek. Since the line 'even death on a cross' apparently doesn't scan, it's widely thought to be a later gloss by an early copyist.

Otherwise it simply says he gave up his heavenly form to become a human.

`9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place (God exalts his Word)

So God rewards him.

and gave Him the name above all names,10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

That part perplexes me, since it implies that Jesus was not called Jesus until after his death.

11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father.

Yes, Paul gives Jesus the title "Lord" and distinguishes him from the Father, who is God.

1 Corinthians 8 makes the point clearly:

6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

As I mentioned, Paul shares these views with the author of John, but not with the authors of Mark, Matthew or Luke.

 

[Brian2]

I have been trying to research from the Christian Bible the idea that:

• ‘A son is equal to his Father’

I can, nowhere, find such a schema from Judaism or Christianity but it is relevant to a part of trinitarianism and other ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’ type of ideological beliefs, wherein it is claimed that:

1. ‘Jesus is equal to God because he is the Son of God’
2. ‘Jesus had the same nature as God so he, too, is God’
3. ‘Jesus received all things that the Father had therefore jesus is God’

These are a few of the reasonings I have heard but which carry no evidence from the scriptures... and it is from the scriptures that I seek the answer to:

• Where is this belief shown in the Old and New Testaments

I am asking:

• If the Son receives what he has from the Father, how is the son equal to the Father who gave him what he has?
• Jesus is given all power and authority BY the Father ... but only did a period of time - and even so, the ‘all things’ did not mean ‘absolutely all things’ because the Father’s “Seat of Power” was not part of the deal. This is illustrated by the stories of:

1. Joseph in Egypt given all power and authority to rule over Ha roads Kingdom ... for a period of time until the famine was over’ whence he ‘HANDED BACK POWER AND AUTHORITY TO’ Pharoah. And, Pharoah said to him, ‘EXCEPT FOR MY THRONE, you are to be Pharoah to my people’
2. Mordeciah in Persia (Book of Esther) in which King Xerxes handed over his Rulership to Mordeciah so that Mordeciah could save the Jews on the day of Purim where the Jews in that kingdom were edicted to be destroyed by the wicked Haman who tricked kings Xerxes.
3. Moses, also, was ‘GOD’ for a period of time under Pharoah. THE GOD, YAHWEH said to him that he was to be ‘God to Pharoah’ (read that as you may) and Moses even was given a high priest to mediate between himself and the people (there’s more to this than I’m saying but times and attention doesn’t warrant right now)

What these show is that even if a Father (or God) gives ‘ALL’ or designates another (obviously, a SON OF MAN) to ACT on his behalf, this still doesn’t make the trusted ‘Son’ EQUAL to the Father, to the God, who entrusted him.

Furthermore, what is it then when the Father has more than one Son - are they both (all) equal to each other ... I don’t think any scriptures credits that reasoning - does it?

Lastly, Adam, the first human, (until he sinned) is credited as being:

• ‘SON OF GOD’ (Luke 3:38)

How is it no one say that:

• ‘Adam was equal to God’

And we know the holy angels are:

• ‘Sons of God’

Why are they not said to:

• ‘Be equal to God because they are Sons of God’

And Jesus prays to the Father that the apostles should also become ‘Sons’ of God...

• ‘Equal to God’???

I’m searching for the reasoning behind ‘Son is equal to Father’ in Christianity or tradition of the Jews - or that it is a myth to substantiate a falsehood of trinitarianism.

It is that Jesus has the same nature as His Father, their natures are equal. (see Heb 1:3 )
A created son or adopted son of God has not the same nature as his Father.
We can also see that Jesus has the same nature as His Father by seeing that Jesus is the begotten Son of God, begotten in Mary. God is the real Father of Jesus, not an adoptive father or a father who created Jesus.
We know Jesus was not created since all it is through Jesus that all things came into existence.

 

[Soapy]

It is that Jesus has the same nature as His Father, their natures are equal. (see Heb 1:3 )
A created son or adopted son of God has not the same nature as his Father.
We can also see that Jesus has the same nature as His Father by seeing that Jesus is the begotten Son of God, begotten in Mary. God is the real Father of Jesus, not an adoptive father or a father who created Jesus.
We know Jesus was not created since all it is through Jesus that all things came into existence.

Someone is going to be in for a big and detrimental surprise…

There are no valid scriptures that claim Jesus created anything nor was ever pre-existent in Heaven. Over and over, GOD TELLS US that he was ALONE, that HE ALONE CREATED ALL THINGS…

The point of the lie concerning Jesus creating all things falls apart when it is considered tragic Jesus, himself, neither claimed a creation nor claimed a pre-existence WITH GOD.

Jesus claimed that he was the prophesied MESSIAH sent from God. This SENDING was after Jesus was anointed with mighty Spirit of
GOD and with power, at his baptism at the river Jordan (Acts 20:37-38).

Also, Jesus only ever said that he was ‘GPING TO THE FATHER’. If Jesus had been with the Father before then he would have said, ‘I am going BACK to the Father’.

 

[Trailblazer]

Where do you get your belief from - a fairy story booklet? Nothing you just said is cohesive nor comprehensible except as a cartoon religion!

You didn't know that many Christians make up stories?
All they need is a Bible and their interpretation of it to come up with any story they want.

 

[Trailblazer]

Paul's Jesus (like John's but not like the synoptic Jesuses) pre-existed in heaven with God.

Will the real Jesus please stand up! Too bad that can't happen but it would sure straighten a lot of things out.

FWIW, I don't believe that Paul's Jesus was the real Jesus although I believe that Jesus preexisted in heaven with God.

 

[blü 2]

Will the real Jesus please stand up! Too bad that can't happen but it would sure straighten a lot of things out.

FWIW, I don't believe that Paul's Jesus was the real Jesus although I believe that Jesus preexisted in heaven with God.

If this were a soccer match you'd lose 3-2 on that question.

Not that it IS a soccer match, but you see what I mean.

And of course I have no personal dog in this fight. It would make no difference to my position if Jesus were a strange visitor from another planet, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound &c. I'm simply standing up for the right of ancient documents to be understood for what they actually say.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer, the Spirit of God is that which the Father promised to pour out on all people (believers).

The Spirit of God (that which Trinitarians call, “The holy Spirit’) is that Comforter Jesus told the Apostles hd would send FROM the Father See the promise from the Father in the book of Joel… See also the book of John and the book of Acts wherein all is emphasised even from Jesus Christ, himself.

Jesus is not the Comforter, the Advocate: ‘I am sending you ANOTHER Comforter…. The Promise from the Father, which the Father said he would ‘Pour out on all flesh … in the last days!!’

That is correct, the Father promised to pour out Spirit of God, which most Christians refer to as the Holy Spirit, in the last days.
However, the bulk of Christians, including my friend @Brian2, believe that the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost and that the Comforter/Spirit of truth is the Holy Spirit that was poured out on the disciples on the Day of Pentecost, and they believe that same Holy Spirit dwells in believers today.

The Holy Spirit that was poured out on the disciples (sent by God) on the day of Pentecost.

Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

And then the Holy Spirit was poured out (sent by God) again in the last days that we are now living in.
In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have (Acts 2:17-21) showing that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh:

Acts 2:17-21 was spoken by the prophet Joel, and it was a prophecy that referred to the last days, the days when Christ would return.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah, who was the return of Christ, thus the return of the Son of man..

All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.

Revelation 6:12-14 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.…

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:24-26”But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

“As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.)

These three events would take place successively, each one in turn heralding a closer approach of the footsteps of the Messiah, until, shortly after the last of the three, the star-fall, He would appear.....

These prophecies gave already been fulfilled in the exact order prophesied.

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars

Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

 

[blü 2]

So are you thinking that an immutable and Immortal God… is ALSO MUTABLE, AND MORTAL?

Well, you only have to read the bible to check whether God is mutable or not. At the start [he]'s simply the God of the Hebrews among the various gods of the various tribes of the Canaanites, and like them [he] may have had a consort (Asherah) at some early stage. This is why [his] commandment reads "You shall have no other gods before me" instead of "I'm the only god there is."

Then when we get to around Isaiah, reacting to the Babylonian captivity, the Hebrew god becomes the only god, and stays that way to the end of the Tanakh. In the NT we get Jesus, who's a circumcised Jew whose essential message reflects the apocalyptic politics of his time and place, so that in Mark, Matthew and Luke he promises the Kingdom will be established within the lifetime of some of his audience. This isn't mentioned in John, presumably because by the time John was written (60 or more years after the traditional date of Jesus' death) it's obviously not going to happen.

The Christian God early on abandons [his] covenant with the Jews, since Paul finds the requirement of circumcision gets in the way of making sales. The Jewish God, of course, does not.

The Christian God then by the 4th century, as a result of church politics, which are influenced by a widespread perception that Jesus as principal character in their story should have some greater status than deputy CEO, has become Triune, something the Jewish God has never been.

Thereafter the Christian God splits into East and West, then the West splits into Catholic and Protestant, then the Protestants split into high and low and other, then the Mormons and Rastafarians express their own views of Jesus, and so on.

It's not quite as bad as quot homines tot dei, but One God it hasn't been for millennia. Nothing immutable to be seen in any direction, though I guess Judaism comes closest in this context.

 

[Brian2]

Someone is going to be in for a big and detrimental surprise…

There are no valid scriptures that claim Jesus created anything nor was ever pre-existent in Heaven. Over and over, GOD TELLS US that he was ALONE, that HE ALONE CREATED ALL THINGS…

The point of the lie concerning Jesus creating all things falls apart when it is considered tragic Jesus, himself, neither claimed a creation nor claimed a pre-existence WITH GOD.

Jesus claimed that he was the prophesied MESSIAH sent from God. This SENDING was after Jesus was anointed with mighty Spirit of
GOD and with power, at his baptism at the river Jordan (Acts 20:37-38).

Also, Jesus only ever said that he was ‘GPING TO THE FATHER’. If Jesus had been with the Father before then he would have said, ‘I am going BACK to the Father’.

The following passage, and others like it, are speaking about Jesus, the Son.
Col 1: 16-17 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Unless this is an invalid scripture, it shows that Jesus was there and part of the creation process.
If God alone created all things, that means that both the Father and the Son must be YHWH also.
Jesus did say "I and the Father are one (thing)"
Jesus also said that the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father. It sounds like that was the case even at the creation.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Where do you get your belief from - a fairy story booklet? Nothing you just said is cohesive nor comprehensible except as a cartoon religion!

“But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.”

 

[Soapy]

You didn't know that many Christians make up stories?
All they need is a Bible and their interpretation of it to come up with any story they want.

I preach this all the time… Deflection is they’d watchword … as you have done here.

To wit: I asked YOU where you get your ideas from and you deflected to ‘Many Christian’s’…!

So, I ask the question to you again…”Where do you get your belief from?”

 

[Soapy]

“But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.”

Except what you say is not the truth, is it!!!
‘Not all who say, “Lord, Lord….” ‘!!

 

[Soapy]

The following passage, and others like it, are speaking about Jesus, the Son.
Col 1: 16-17 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Unless this is an invalid scripture, it shows that Jesus was there and part of the creation process.
If God alone created all things, that means that both the Father and the Son must be YHWH also.
Jesus did say "I and the Father are one (thing)"
Jesus also said that the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father. It sounds like that was the case even at the creation.

Brian2, you know very well that that is an invalid scripture repackaged to claim Jesus as God.

All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

There is no such thing as ‘BY HIM AND THROUGH HIM’… that is an INCONGRUOUS statement!!!

Not only that by trinity scripture ALSO says that THE FATHER CREATED THROUGH THE SON…

How do you justify your Jesus creating everything BY HIMSELF if it was THE FATHER who created all thing THROUGH your Jesus???

Brian2, the truth is that GOD is THE FATHER, and Hd was talking to the Jews telling them that there are no other GODS of creation - that He, and He alone created all things.

Brian2, how does ‘BY HIMSELF’ sit with you by your belief that ‘The Father created all things THROUGH the Son…. By himself!’?

‘Both Father and Son are YHWH’??? Brian2, you know there is no such thing in the beginning… ‘I and the Father are One’ just means that they agree with each other.

John 17:21 says, “May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.”… according to you, then, the believers will also be ‘YHWH’…!!! Now that would be something [impossible] and irreverent not to mention ‘Satanic’.

How does ‘I created by myself’ suddenly translate to ‘WE created by OURSELVES’…?

 

[blü 2]

There are no valid scriptures that claim Jesus created anything nor was ever pre-existent in Heaven.

Well, except for the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John, you're right.

Paul tells us

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.​

The universe exists through Paul's Jesus, in other words, because God required it. (I recall coming across another quote somewhere in Paul to the same effect, but I can't recalL right now where that was.)

And the author of John tells us of Jesus, as the logos that

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.​

So both Paul and the author of John think of Jesus as a being pre-existing in heaven with God, who on God's behalf created the material universe. This ties in with aspects of gnosticism, where God is conceived as being utterly pure spirit, and utterly remote, so that it would be unthinkable for [him] to create anything so vulgar as a material universe. Thus the job falls to the demiurge ("craftsman") to do that, and thus these two versions of Jesus appear to be demiurges. The 'utterly remote' part accounts for John 17, where that Jesus explains that material beings can be one with God by being one with him, Jesus, thus bridging the gap between material (human) and pure spirit (God).

None of that is found in the three synoptic Jesuses, of course. One is an ordinary Jewish young man until God adopts him, and the other two are the result of divine insemination of a virgin, and thus have God's Y-chromosome.