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Children of God

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
The "fall" story is not, in essence, a story of our departure from God, but a story of the process of human wisdom. Humans arrive in a utopian state of ignorance (babies.) Part of parenting is teaching them right from wrong. Knowing right from wrong is good. Moral discernment is good. But there's a price to be paid for it. The use of the serpent as a character in the story is the author's symbol for the coming of wisdom, not evil. The serpent is an ancient symbol for wisdom and healing, not evil and death.

This makes me feel sick. You have pulled the rug from under the feet of the scripture, attempting to undermine the Word of God at it's root. You ought to be ashamed, how can you say such things? You have been given a postion as a minister of God yet you attempt to undermine Him, you should tremble at attempting to teach people such things.
You have turned the bible on it's head, here you make God our enemy because He attempts to withold us from the progression which is for our benefit because He commands not to eat of the tree, you make the serpent the hero because though he beguiles eve into disobeying God that was what we really needed to attain wisdom.
You interpret the serpent not by looking elsewhere in Gods (and the fact that he encourages disobedience to Gods commands) word but to ancient symbols as though it is the ancients who have the treasury of knowledge and not the word of God.

James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
 

Polaris

Active Member
Paul said:
Each of our spirits are formed in us by God but not created anew, he forms them out of what we recieve by procreation inhertiting adams nature and curse, he forms those spirits how He sees fit which I would say ensures that we are all individual. Nowhere does the bible say that God creates in us new spirits except when we are made new creatures even then it is Him putting His Holy Spirit within us.

What? So our spirits are somehow formed during the procreative process between a mortal man and woman? I have a hard time believing there is any Biblical support for that. The fact that the Bible proclaims God as Father of our spirits sure indicates at some point we were born/created of Him. Metaphorically speaking we become new creatures when we receive his Holy Spirit, but our spirits had to be formed/born initially by God at some point for us to exist in the first place.

This is the crux of our disagreement -- how and when our spirits were formed. So you believe the following (correct me if I'm wrong):
- our spirits are formed at the same time as our mortal bodies
- our spirits are formed as part of the mortal procreative process and inherit mortal weaknesses and sin

What is the scriptural evidence for your position on this?


Paul said:
God is the Father of our Spirits, God is the father of Adams spirit. How can you say that we are by nature sons of God when the bible says we are by nature children of wrath? Are you comfortable directly contradicting the bible like that? Doesn't it make you worry that you are fighting against the word of Jehovah?

No, because you are misinterpreting both me and the bible. We are the spirit children of God, our mortal bodies on the other hand are created through the procreative process and come with weaknesses, limitations, and tendencies towards sin. It is by our mortal nature that we are "children of wrath". It is in the spiritual that we are children of God.

Paul said:
Think about it, if we are all born with spirits directly descendent from God then they would not be subject to corruption, that child would be immortal until it sinned because death came by sin. Death could have no power over a sinless one.

No, because our spirits are born directly descendent from God, they are born innocent. As we are born into mortality we inherit the weaknesses of mortal physical beings. Physical death came through Adam's transgression, it doesn't come through our individual sins, spiritual death does (spiritual death meaning being cut off from the influence of the Holy Spirit).

Christ was perfectly sinless, yet he experienced physical death.
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
This is the crux of our disagreement -- how and when our spirits were formed. So you believe the following (correct me if I'm wrong):
- our spirits are formed at the same time as our mortal bodies
- our spirits are formed as part of the mortal procreative process and inherit mortal weaknesses and sin

What is the scriptural evidence for your position on this?
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
The word formed here never means created or begotten or anything like that:
It carries the idea of a potter shaping the clay.

No, because you are misinterpreting both me and the bible. We are the spirit children of God, our mortal bodies on the other hand are created through the procreative process and come with weaknesses, limitations, and tendencies towards sin. It is by our mortal nature that we are "children of wrath". It is in the spiritual that we are children of God.
Then why the need to be born again? Why are people by nature children of wrath, children of disobedience? Why are some called children of the devil? Why are we born unclean? Why do babies die? They should not be subject to death having no sin attached to them.

No, because our spirits are born directly descendent from God, they are born innocent.
You keep saying this but offer no proof.

As we are born into mortality we inherit the weaknesses of mortal physical beings.
Which are only that way because of Adams sin, if they do not inherit this then they should not be born that way.

Christ was perfectly sinless, yet he experienced physical death.
Why? Because:
2nd Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
 

PHOTOTAKER

Well-Known Member
jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee...

formed would be before procreation of two humans so this would mean that we existed as spirits or in some form before we came to the earth...

psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

this passages clearly give the answer that we are children of God and therefore airs to the kingdom of God and joint airs with Christ...

ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

i love this passage first we come from the dust and then we return because we come from the dust; now this next part is interesting we "return" to God but if we as you say are formed in the belly then how do we return to somewhere if we were never been there in the first place? the answer that we cannot we would of had to come from heaven in order to return to heaven. the dust return to the dust and the spirits return to heaven and to God which is our father...
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
.. as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. "

This passage clearly teaches that we ALL are the offspring of God, even those who worship false gods. Also there are many scriptures that refer to God as our Father without any sort of confessional qualifications.
I disagree with how you have interpreted this text. Luke is quoting a Greek author who says this and is not emphasizing how everyone is a child of God in his own teachings.
This is a fine example of how paying just a little attention to the words in a passage will reveal quite a bit of meaning instead of just projecting what we think into the meaning.
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee...
formed would be before procreation of two humans so this would mean that we existed as spirits or in some form before we came to the earth...
No because it clearly says formed in the belly, this verse only proves what I was saying, God doesn't create us a new in the womb, we are procreated and God forms the person in the womb as a potter does with clay.
God knew Jeremiah in his eternal counsel, he had designed him to be a prophet. He is telling Jeremiah that He who was giving him his commission is the same that gave him his being, that formed him in the belly and brought him forth out of the womb, that therefore he was his rightful owner and might use him and make use of him as he pleased, and that this commission was given him in pursuance of the purpose God had purposed in himself concerning him, before he was born: "I knew thee, and I sanctified thee," in other words "I determined that you should be a prophet and so I set you apart for the ministry. This is why Paul says of himself that God had separated him from his mother's womb to be a Christian and an apostle, Gal. i. 15.
psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
this passages clearly give the answer that we are children of God and therefore airs to the kingdom of God and joint airs with Christ...
It says "I have said" where did he say it? To whom did He say it? Jesus tells us:
St. John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
It was to a certain group of people evidently, and who were they?
It is the rulers of the people whom He here calls gods:
Exodus 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people
who exercised the judgement and authority of God i.e the priests / judges. It is one of the meanings of the word elohim.
They had a commission from God, and were delegated and appointed by him to be the protectors of the nation, the conservators of the public peace, and revengers to execute wrath upon those that disturb it.
This makes sense in the context of the psalm:

Psalms 82:1-4 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
David is bemoaning that they are not using their authority correctly and calls for them to do so reminding them that God is their judge.
I have never denied that people are children of God, I have explained how that they are through their descent from Adam which also fits into the meaning of the word offspring Paul uses in Acts. Nowhere does the bible say we are directly begotten from God by nature, spiritually or otherwise.

ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
i love this passage first we come from the dust and then we return because we come from the dust; now this next part is interesting we "return" to God but if we as you say are formed in the belly then how do we return to somewhere if we were never been there in the first place? the answer that we cannot we would of had to come from heaven in order to return to heaven. the dust return to the dust and the spirits return to heaven and to God which is our father...
God did give it, to Adam, then Adam became a living soul and so did all his offspring.
That spirit, which God first breathed into the nostrils of Adam. That is the meaning of the word there. BREATH, respiration; or the principle of all life, common to men and animals, this God has given, and this he takes back when he takes away the life of the flesh, so says Job:
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
This is why the body without the spirit is dead:
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Yeah, our spirits did not 'pre-exist' before our bodies, we became a living soul at conception. Jesus is the only-begotton Son of God, who was with God and is God and is from everlasting to everlasting. Satan is not a spirit brother of Jesus, for Jesus is the only begotten, Satan is a fallen angel, a created being, like the other angels,like humans are created beings, not a begotten Son. We are born children of darkness and re-born when we trust Christ as Children of Light, adopted sons of God, adopted, not begotten, there is only one only begotten.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Yeah, our spirits did not 'pre-exist' before our bodies, we became a living soul at conception.
The scriptures say they when we die, our spirit "returns" to God. Can you tell me how a spirit could "return" to someplace it has never been before?

Jesus is the only-begotton Son of God, who was with God and is God and is from everlasting to everlasting.
Nobody's arguing that point.

Satan is not a spirit brother of Jesus.
Does this have anything to do with the OP?

We are born children of darkness and re-born when we trust Christ as Children of Light, adopted sons of God, adopted, not begotten, there is only one only begotten.
Speak for yourself, Mike. I was born as a daughter of my Heavenly Father, who is the father of my eternal spirit.
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
The scriptures say they when we die, our spirit "returns" to God. Can you tell me how a spirit could "return" to someplace it has never been before?

Nobody's arguing that point.

Does this have anything to do with the OP?

Speak for yourself, Mike. I was born as a daughter of my Heavenly Father, who is the father of my eternal spirit.

Hey, Kat, I think it can be interpreted that we return to the one who created us through Adam in the first place also. When we were born we inherited the sin-nature, the fallen nature of Adam, for I believe Adam was immortal when he was created, but that when he sinned he died spiritualy toward God and began to die physically, too. So we were born mortal in a fallen world with a sin-nature, unlike Jesus who was conceived of the Holy Spirit and not of man so He did not inherit the sin-nature.

Romans 5
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
--------------------------------------------------

We were once children of darkness or wrath bor disobedience, but now are children of light through Jesus:

Ephesians 5:8
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
1 Thessalonians 5:5
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness
Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
----------------------------------------------

If we were once children of wrath, disobedience, and darkness, we weren't God's children but belonged to the kingdom of darkness before we trusted Christ.

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Romans 2:19
And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Romans 13:12
The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
1 2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Ephesians 5:8
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
1 Thessalonians 5:4
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:5
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
 

Polaris

Active Member
joeboonda said:
I think it can be interpreted that we return to the one who created us through Adam in the first place also. When we were born we inherited the sin-nature, the fallen nature of Adam, for I believe Adam was immortal when he was created, but that when he sinned he died spiritualy toward God and began to die physically, too. So we were born mortal in a fallen world with a sin-nature, unlike Jesus who was conceived of the Holy Spirit and not of man so He did not inherit the sin-nature.

I fail to see how that explains how our spirits "return" to the God who gave it life. As Katzpur said, "return" requires that we were once already with God. How can our spirit "return" to God if it was never with Him in the first place?

Another example from the scriptures helps to make the point. In St. John 9:2-3 Christ's disciples asked him concerning a blind man: "who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him".

The very premise of this question requires pre-birth life and even the ability to make choices before birth. Interestingly Christ didn't correct them on this premise, most likely because correction wasn't necessary. We, as spirits begotten of God, lived before our birth and had the ability to make choices. Therefore it makes perfect sense for our spirits to be able to "return" to the God who gave them life.
 

Polaris

Active Member
sandy whitelinger said:
This is a fine example of how paying just a little attention to the words in a passage will reveal quite a bit of meaning instead of just projecting what we think into the meaning.

Two problems with your argument:

1. We don't know which portions of the text, if any, were direct quotes from "your own poets".
2. Even if the entire passage was a quote from their poets, it makes no sense to believe that Paul would use them to support his argument if they were based on false teachings. The fact that Paul used the statement in support of his argument is evidence enough to me that it is based on truth.
 

Vassal

Member
So every instance in which God is referred to as our Father is metaphorical? How do support that claim?

The point of Paul's statement seems quite clear: because we are the offspring of God we should not make Him into some object or idol. The word offspring is used for a reason -- probably because that's really what Paul meant, and probably because that is our true relationship to God, our Father.

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If Jesus is only only begotten son of God, then how can everyone else also be begotten of God as you so claim?
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
I fail to see how that explains how our spirits "return" to the God who gave it life. As Katzpur said, "return" requires that we were once already with God. How can our spirit "return" to God if it was never with Him in the first place?

Another example from the scriptures helps to make the point. In St. John 9:2-3 Christ's disciples asked him concerning a blind man: "who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him".

The very premise of this question requires pre-birth life and even the ability to make choices before birth. Interestingly Christ didn't correct them on this premise, most likely because correction wasn't necessary. We, as spirits begotten of God, lived before our birth and had the ability to make choices. Therefore it makes perfect sense for our spirits to be able to "return" to the God who gave them life.
Ephesians 5:8
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Ephesians 5:8
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Did you read these scriptures? We were born children of darkness, not children of light or God. The verses you mention have nothing to do with a 'pre-existing' spirit, rather the question of the curse earthly sins of parents passed to their children. We were given life from God through Adam, when God formed him of the dust of the earth and then breathed life into him, (no mention of a pre-existing spirit), thus the breath of life was passed down to all humans through procreation. God gave us life through Adam and we will return to God from whom life came through Adam. God has only one Son, Jesus who was with God and who is God from everlasting. Satan is not a 'son' of God, but a created being, an angel, just as we are created beings, humans, by the breath of God breathed into Adam and passed down to us. Again, the Bible is VERY clear we are children of wrath, children of disobedience, and children of darkness translated into the children of light, into the kingdom of light, adopted as sons, not born as sons but rather as sinners, enemies at enmity with God. We are only made heirs of God by trusting in Jesus who was with God and who is God, God the Son. Three in one and one in three and the one in the middle died for me.
 

Polaris

Active Member
joeboonda said:
Did you read these scriptures?

Yep, and none of them say that we were "born" children of darkness.

Granted, when we are born into mortality we are born into a fallen mortal state in which we are susceptible and bound to commit sin. In that sense, by our mortal nature we are "children of wrath". That doesn't deny the fact however that we are spiritually born of God in complete innocence.

joeboonda said:
The verses you mention have nothing to do with a 'pre-existing' spirit, rather the question of the curse earthly sins of parents passed to their children.

Sure it does:

"Who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?" They specifically asked if the sin of "this man" was the cause of his born blindness. That clearly suggests some state of pre-born existance in which the man had the ability to make choices.

joeboonda said:
We were given life from God through Adam, when God formed him of the dust of the earth and then breathed life into him, (no mention of a pre-existing spirit), thus the breath of life was passed down to all humans through procreation.

Right, it doesn't say anyting about the pre-earth existance period. It's specifically an account of the physical creation.

joeboonda said:
God gave us life through Adam and we will return to God from whom life came through Adam.

We can only "return" to God if we've already been there.

joeboonda said:
God has only one Son, Jesus who was with God and who is God from everlasting.

Right, one Son in the flesh.
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Polaris we obviously believe very different things. I believe people are born with Adam's sin-nature and spiritually dead toward God until we are 'quickened'--made alive spiritually when we are born again when we first trusted Christ. We were children of wrath, children of disobedience and children of darkness, NOT children of light or of God UNTIL we were saved. You say Jesus was 'one son in the flesh', but if you believe we were 'spirit babies' are we not 'in the flesh' right at this moment making us sons of God? I do not believe we were born sons of God, only Jesus was. We believe very differently, and I do not think that will change.
Peace,
Mike
 

Polaris

Active Member
Polaris we obviously believe very different things. I believe people are born with Adam's sin-nature and spiritually dead toward God until we are 'quickened'--made alive spiritually when we are born again when we first trusted Christ. We were children of wrath, children of disobedience and children of darkness, NOT children of light or of God UNTIL we were saved.

To a large extent I agree with you here. As we are born into this fallen mortal state, we become naturally sinful and therefore spiritually dead. You're right that we become alive in Christ when we are spiritually reborn. However none of that denies the fact that we existed before we were born, as spirit children of God, and that we were born as such in innocence.

joeboonda said:
You say Jesus was 'one son in the flesh', but if you believe we were 'spirit babies' are we not 'in the flesh' right at this moment making us sons of God?

We are all spirit children of God. Only Christ was begotten of Him in the flesh, only Christ can claim the Father as his direct physical father.

joeboonda said:
We believe very differently, and I do not think that will change.

That's fine. All I'm saying is that the scriptures actually mean it when they refer to us as the children/offspring of God, and that scriptural evidence supports the LDS belief in a spiritual pre-earth existance.
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
To a large extent I agree with you here. As we are born into this fallen mortal state, we become naturally sinful and therefore spiritually dead. You're right that we become alive in Christ when we are spiritually reborn. However none of that denies the fact that we existed before we were born, as spirit children of God, and that we were born as such in innocence.



We are all spirit children of God. Only Christ was begotten of Him in the flesh, only Christ can claim the Father as his direct physical father.



That's fine. All I'm saying is that the scriptures actually mean it when they refer to us as the children/offspring of God, and that scriptural evidence supports the LDS belief in a spiritual pre-earth existance.

Okay, well I understand we believe somewhat the same but not exactly, so I respect that. My scriptures say that Mary concieved by the Holy Ghost, nowhere by a physical Father God. So I don't agree there. And of course I do not believe we pre-existed outside our body or were God's spirit babies or children, those are strictly Mormon beliefs, that is,as far as the realm of Christendom goes.
Mike
 
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