God-centered Christianity or man-centered Christianity

[Special Revelation]

Does this mean man plays absolutely no role in it?

God created mankind for His own glory. God created us to enjoy fellowship with Him. In regards to redemption, mankind brings his sin and rebellion as his role. God also choose to use the foolishness of preaching in His plan of salvation. I guess redeemed men become co-labors with God through the power of God. Redeemed Mankind also becomes God's vessel of mercy, for God to pour out His grace to those who believe. Within this amazing act of sacrificial love found in Christ, God is glorified. Therefore, all that God does is for His own glory.

 

[Quiddity]

God created mankind for His own glory. God created us to enjoy fellowship with Him. In regards to redemption, mankind brings his sin and rebellion as his role. God also choose to use the foolishness of preaching in His plan of salvation. I guess redeemed men become co-labors with God through the power of God. Redeemed Mankind also becomes God's vessel of mercy, for God to pour out His grace to those who believe. Within this amazing act of sacrificial love found in Christ, God is glorified. Therefore, all that God does is for His own glory.

Excellent! Except I don't think you'd be hyper-literal in saying that "all that God does" is for Him and Him alone. I don't quite see God that selfish. Perhaps you don't either. Aside from that I agree with you.

 

[Special Revelation]

Excellent! Except I don't think you'd be hyper-literal in saying that "all that God does" is for Him and Him alone. I don't quite see God that selfish. Perhaps you don't either. Aside from that I agree with you.

God is so God-centered because true joy is found in Him alone. We know God through Christ; therefore, our everlasting joy is found spending time with God. The more God-centered we become, the more joy we experience. The more we magnify God's glory, the more joy that we receive. Have you heard of the term "Christian hedonism"? Christian hedonism is finding pleasure in God Himself.

 

[Quiddity]

God is so God-centered because true joy is found in Him alone. We know God through Christ; therefore, our everlasting joy is found spending time with God. The more God-centered we become, the more joy we experience. The more we magnify God's glory, the more joy that we receive. Have you heard of the term "Christian hedonism"? Christian hedonism is finding pleasure in God Himself.

I don't know how that answered my question. I wasn't questioning whether God is self sustaining in every way. I believe He is. I was questioning God doing everything for Himself. He did not have to create us. It was a gift.

 

[Special Revelation]

I don't know how that answered my question. I wasn't questioning whether God is self sustaining in every way. I believe He is. I was questioning God doing everything for Himself. He did not have to create us. It was a gift.

Victor, I'm sorry...I didn't know you had an unanswered question. God did not have to create us. God created us for His own glory. God does everything for His own glory. However, God's glory is glorious, wonderful, amazing, something we will marvel at for eternity. Being God-centered is to marvel at God's glory today, tomorrow, and forever.

 

[*Paul*]

Man centered Christianity is no Christianity at all but a delusion, for self must die with Christ and the life that we now live must be Christ living in us who has given us in His word all things pertaining to life and godliness.

 

[Special Revelation]

Man centered Christianity is no Christianity at all but a delusion, for self must die with Christ and the life that we now live must be Christ living in us who has given us in His word all things pertaining to life and godliness.

This sounds like a converted Christian to me.

 

[Ðanisty]

Victor, I'm sorry...I didn't know you had an unanswered question. God did not have to create us. God created us for His own glory. God does everything for His own glory. However, God's glory is glorious, wonderful, amazing, something we will marvel at for eternity. Being God-centered is to marvel at God's glory today, tomorrow, and forever.

Yes, but Victor was saying that for God to do everything only for his own glory comes off sounding selfish. I agree. So can you explain it further?

 

[Quiddity]

Yes, but Victor was saying that for God to do everything only for his own glory comes off sounding selfish. I agree. So can you explain it further?

Thanks Danisty.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Personally, I would like to see Christians practice the religion of Jesus rather than one about him.

 

[lunamoth]

I like doppel's first reply...a love-centered Christianity.

That love flows from God to and through us, out into the world, and back to God.

 

[Ðanisty]

Personally, I would like to see Christians practice the religion of Jesus rather than one about him.

Frubals man. That was a great point.

 

[Special Revelation]

Yes, but Victor was saying that for God to do everything only for his own glory comes off sounding selfish. I agree. So can you explain it further?

Thanks for the question Danisty. I started to respond to your question but decided to start a new Thread about this important topic. You see, the God you don't like used you again for His purpose. Come and join us on the Thread "God does everything for His own glory!".

 

[sojourner]

The question is moot. Christ is the fullness, or completion of creation, because Christ represents the reconciliation of humanity with God. There can be no Christian concept other than one of humanity's full reconciliation with God. Therefore, there can be no Christianity that is centered on "one or the other." There is no "one or the other." There is only union. That's the gospel that Jesus preached: "Amend your ways, because the kingdom of God has come near."

Your quote here:

God created mankind for His own glory. God created us to enjoy fellowship with Him. In regards to redemption, mankind brings his sin and rebellion as his role. God also choose to use the foolishness of preaching in His plan of salvation. I guess redeemed men become co-labors with God through the power of God. Redeemed Mankind also becomes God's vessel of mercy, for God to pour out His grace to those who believe. Within this amazing act of sacrificial love found in Christ, God is glorified. Therefore, all that God does is for His own glory.

shows a fundamental flaw in your thinking. Look at the highlighted phrase. Sin cannot enter into the stew of creation, because sin is separation from God and has nothing to do with union with God -- hence the need for us to amend our lives, now that the kingdom has come near.

The "fall" of humanity was not a fall into evil, but a fall into wisdom. As a result of the "fall," we are made "like God," as Genesis says. What humanity brings to the mix is not sin (which is only a by-product of our gaining of wisdom), but the potential to become like God. In that way, we glorify God, or express the fullness of God's creation.

When we "die to self," what we're doing is realizing our full potential as having been reconciled to God and become like God. This points us away from the fruit of wisdom that is "human-like," or limited in potential, and toward the fruit of wisdom that is God-like, or unlimited in potential.

There can be no Xy that is either God-centered, Christ-centered, or humanity-centered, because Christ brought reconciliation with God. There can only be a Xy that is us-centered. In other words, as Dopple said, "love centered," because love is the glue that binds us together.

 

[lunamoth]

The question is moot. Christ is the fullness, or completion of creation, because Christ represents the reconciliation of humanity with God. There can be no Christian concept other than one of humanity's full reconciliation with God. Therefore, there can be no Christianity that is centered on "one or the other." There is no "one or the other." There is only union. That's the gospel that Jesus preached: "Amend your ways, because the kingdom of God has come near."

Your quote here:
shows a fundamental flaw in your thinking. Look at the highlighted phrase. Sin cannot enter into the stew of creation, because sin is separation from God and has nothing to do with union with God -- hence the need for us to amend our lives, now that the kingdom has come near.

The "fall" of humanity was not a fall into evil, but a fall into wisdom. As a result of the "fall," we are made "like God," as Genesis says. What humanity brings to the mix is not sin (which is only a by-product of our gaining of wisdom), but the potential to become like God. In that way, we glorify God, or express the fullness of God's creation.

When we "die to self," what we're doing is realizing our full potential as having been reconciled to God and become like God. This points us away from the fruit of wisdom that is "human-like," or limited in potential, and toward the fruit of wisdom that is God-like, or unlimited in potential.

There can be no Xy that is either God-centered, Christ-centered, or humanity-centered, because Christ brought reconciliation with God. There can only be a Xy that is us-centered. In other words, as Dopple said, "love centered," because love is the glue that binds us together.

Great post sojourner! The system *curse you system!* would not let me frubal you again.

 

[Special Revelation]

The question is moot. Christ is the fullness, or completion of creation, because Christ represents the reconciliation of humanity with God. There can be no Christian concept other than one of humanity's full reconciliation with God. Therefore, there can be no Christianity that is centered on "one or the other." There is no "one or the other." There is only union. That's the gospel that Jesus preached: "Amend your ways, because the kingdom of God has come near."

Your quote here:
shows a fundamental flaw in your thinking. Look at the highlighted phrase. Sin cannot enter into the stew of creation, because sin is separation from God and has nothing to do with union with God -- hence the need for us to amend our lives, now that the kingdom has come near.

The "fall" of humanity was not a fall into evil, but a fall into wisdom. As a result of the "fall," we are made "like God," as Genesis says. What humanity brings to the mix is not sin (which is only a by-product of our gaining of wisdom), but the potential to become like God. In that way, we glorify God, or express the fullness of God's creation.

When we "die to self," what we're doing is realizing our full potential as having been reconciled to God and become like God. This points us away from the fruit of wisdom that is "human-like," or limited in potential, and toward the fruit of wisdom that is God-like, or unlimited in potential.

There can be no Xy that is either God-centered, Christ-centered, or humanity-centered, because Christ brought reconciliation with God. There can only be a Xy that is us-centered. In other words, as Dopple said, "love centered," because love is the glue that binds us together.

I have to kindly disagree with you. I have a question for you: are you a universalist? Do you think all mankind will be reconciled to God including those who do not believe in Christ and the gospel? I believe Dopple is not a Christian. He states that fact on post 25. Since Dopple is not a Christian, do you believe that he is in rebellion with God through his unforgiven sin? I believe the love of God described in the verse below is reserved for converted Christians, don't you agree?

Romans 5:5:
And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

 

[sojourner]

I have to kindly disagree with you. I have a question for you: are you a universalist? Do you think all mankind will be reconciled to God including those who do not believe in Christ and the gospel? I believe Dopple is not a Christian. He states that fact on post 25. Since Dopple is not a Christian, do you believe that he is in rebellion with God through his unforgiven sin? I believe the love of God described in the verse below is reserved for converted Christians, don't you agree?

Romans 5:5:
And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

There is only one kind of sin: forgiven sin.

Consider this passage from Christianity Rediscovered by Fr. Vincent Donovan (pg. 47):

"If you study the apostolic approach very closely, you will see that something is missing. Sin is missing. There is no mention of original sin or any other kind of sin. Sin will come in later, after Christ, after getting to know Christ, in relation to Christ, but the sin portrayed by the first preachers of the Christian gospel is forgiven sin, something entirely different -- the felix culpa. After all, isn't that the only kind of sin there is in the world, forgiven sin?

"I do not have to convince [the pagans] of sin. They know of sin. What they did not know of was forgiveness. It has touched the earth. This is where Christianity parts company from Judaism and from Hinduism and from paganism. sin is a conquered thing. This is a redeemed world. One wonders if one should dare talk to pagans about sin -- apart from Christ, until they know Christ.

"The job of a missionary, after all, is not to teach sin, but rather the forgiveness of sin."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

There is only one kind of sin: forgiven sin.

Consider this passage from Christianity Rediscovered by Fr. Vincent Donovan (pg. 47):

"If you study the apostolic approach very closely, you will see that something is missing. Sin is missing. There is no mention of original sin or any other kind of sin. Sin will come in later, after Christ, after getting to know Christ, in relation to Christ, but the sin portrayed by the first preachers of the Christian gospel is forgiven sin, something entirely different -- the felix culpa. After all, isn't that the only kind of sin there is in the world, forgiven sin?

"I do not have to convince [the pagans] of sin. They know of sin. What they did not know of was forgiveness. It has touched the earth. This is where Christianity parts company from Judaism and from Hinduism and from paganism. sin is a conquered thing. This is a redeemed world. One wonders if one should dare talk to pagans about sin -- apart from Christ, until they know Christ.

"The job of a missionary, after all, is not to teach sin, but rather the forgiveness of sin."

I wonder what he considers to be the "apostolic approach." He can't be referring to the apostles in the NT or the apostolic fathers, because they talk about sin all the time. :cover:

 

[sojourner]

I wonder what he considers to be the "apostolic approach." He can't be referring to the apostles in the NT or the apostolic fathers, because they talk about sin all the time. :cover:

Yes. He's speaking specifically of the NT apostles. And I agree with him. Their approach to evangelism one of "Christ came so that sin could be forgiven sin." They introduce Christ first, and only then do they talk about sin -- as forgiven sin. Therefore, sin is spoken of only in light of Christ and the availability of grace.

His approach to missionary work was to go back to Paul, especially, and to utilize a Biblical model for evanelism, rather than the imperial model that had been used by the Church for centuries. In this particular culture, they knew about sin, but they did not know about forgiveness.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yes. He's speaking specifically of the NT apostles. And I agree with him. Their approach to evangelism one of "Christ came so that sin could be forgiven sin." They introduce Christ first, and only then do they talk about sin -- as forgiven sin. Therefore, sin is spoken of only in light of Christ and the availability of grace.

This is interesting but completely indefensible. I agree that sin is spoken of in light of Christ, but I find unanimous agreement in the apostolic fathers of "unforgiven" sin for both Christians and non-Christians. There may be one or two examples from the NT or apostolic fathers that can be marshalled against this, but the evidence for my position is quite overwhelming.

See, for example, the posts in my thread Apostolic Fathers Against TULIP to the tune of:

1 Clement 50.5

"Blessed are we, dear friends, if we continue to keep God's commandments in the harmony of love, that our sins may be forgiven us through love."